Which company would you think will takeover the Liverpool-Nottingham Section of EMR Regional's Liverpool-Manchester-Nottingham-Norwich Route?

[SouthEastBuses]

Oh right ok. Then class 185s or 68 Nova 3 would be best suited.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The Cheshire lines route via Warrington is not electrified, only the Chat Moss via Huyton

Maybe TPE could divert the service via the Huyton route in order to use trains under electric power and therefore speed up journeys?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Personally speaking I’d think outside the box...
- East Midlands trains operating it as a Norwich to Sheffield, supplemented by the Northern Connect from Nottingham to Leeds.
- CrossCountry using Voyager / Meridian rolling stock and the existing Derby / Nottingham / Manchester crew bases to deliver a Manchester - Sheffield - Derby - Nottingham service with some added stops for local connectivity such as Belper and Long Eaton.
- Transfer ‘little stops’ such as Spondon into the Matlock - Nottingham/Newark.
- Use uniform Northern suburban stock on the Liverpool - Manchester sector, potentially even asking TPE to take that back and using double 185s on Cleethorpes services (single 185 east of Sheffield), connecting into the Norwich each way at Sheffield for positive journey opportunities and ‘out of Manchester’ changes.
- Flight the Manchester - Sheffield - Derby - Nottingham Voyager services so there’s about a half-hour gap; and give them off-peak and peak calls at some stations on the Hope Valley.

 

[D365]

Transpennine Express by using class 802 Nova 1s, which will run under electric from Liverpool to Manchester then diesel for the rest of the journey.

Where would the Class 802s come from? They're all in use already, what's the point in ordering more when Class 185s are available.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Where would the Class 802s come from? They're all in use already, what's the point in ordering more when Class 185s are available.

They can use the current 802s, you know. And with the electrification of the Manchester to Leeds line to start soon, they could order more 397s for that route, releasing the 802s onto the Liverpool Norwich line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can use the current 802s, you know. And with the electrification of the Manchester to Leeds line to start soon, they could order more 397s for that route, releasing the 802s onto the Liverpool Norwich line.

Isn't it proposed to use the 68+Mk5 instead, as there is only a short length wired?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Isn't it proposed to use the 68+Mk5 instead, as there is only a short length wired?

68 Nova 3 would also work for Liverpool to Norwich if they're only going to electrify part of it.

 

[Domh245]

They can use the current 802s, you know. And with the electrification of the Manchester to Leeds line to start soon, they could order more 397s for that route, releasing the 802s onto the Liverpool Norwich line.

The 125 (or eventually 140!)mph capability of the 802s would be entirely wasted on Nottingham-Liverpool. 68s+mk5s would be less of a 'waste'

 

[SouthEastBuses]

that would make sense then

 

[D365]

They can use the current 802s, you know. And with the electrification of the Manchester to Leeds line to start soon, they could order more 397s for that route, releasing the 802s onto the Liverpool Norwich line.

68 Nova 3 would also work for Liverpool to Norwich if they're only going to electrify part of it.

Just curious why you're so opposed to the use of Class 185s.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I don't think they'd be suitable for long distance journeys, being designed for short, commuter services.

 

[D365]

I don't think they'd be suitable for long distance journeys, being designed for short, commuter services.

Class 185s are staying on the South TransPennine route, so they can't be all that unsuitable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they'd be suitable for long distance journeys, being designed for short, commuter services.

They are not "designed for short, commuter services", that's just door-position prejudice. Have you ever been on one? They are for instance far more comfortable than a Pendolino or Voyager.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

185s are remarkably comfortable and very well-suited to journeys even including Newcastle - Manchester, Scarborough - Liverpool and Cleethorpes - Manchester in my mind. Vastly better than 170s.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They are not "designed for short, commuter services", that's just door-position prejudice. Have you ever been on one? They are for instance far more comfortable than a Pendolino or Voyager.

No. I've been on a Pendolino and Voyager though, and those two trains are definetly comfortable in my opinion.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

And of the Desiro family, I've been on a 450 and 700. I don't like 700s because I find them very uncomfortable, but I think the 450s are not bad in terms of comfort.
Sorry for the off topic, btw.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. I've been on a Pendolino and Voyager though, and those two trains are definetly comfortable in my opinion.

Try a 185 at some point after lockdown, then. You will be pleasantly surprised. They are definitely not a poshed-up Class 150 or similar, and while they have the same seats have a considerably more InterCity-like seating layout than say a Class 350 (if you've been on one of those). They also have a very classy interior scheme.

Edit: if you've been on a 450, it's basically that but 2+2 with armrests, tables, sockets and a classier colour scheme, and the airline seating is less densely packed (350s and 450s have an extra row squashed in the centre section).

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Maybe in the summer, depends on how the coronavirus situation is.
185s look nice outside, I just thought because of two doors instead of the one door that British Intercity trains have, that 185s would not be suitable for Liverpool to Norwich. But, tbf, with good things you guys are telling me, I've changed my mind and 185s could do too.

Another operator train and operator that could do on Norwich to Liverpool is Greater Anglia with 755 FLIRTs. Apparently the 755s (and 745s) are very comfortable, even more comfortable than a IET train! But I won't give my proper opinion until I go on them as I haven't been on neither a British FLIRT nor a IET yet.

EDIT: Speaking of FLIRTs, I've only been on Continental European ones in Germany, and I remember these trains were great to ride.

 

[37424]

No. I've been on a Pendolino and Voyager though, and those two trains are definetly comfortable in my opinion.

Well clearly using 802's on this route is not going to happen, if any additional 802's were ordered for TPE they would be more likely to replace the Loco Hauled to Redcar, if the Loco Hauled were chosen for the Nottingham service and they didn't want to put the 185's back on that route but that's just pure speculation.

As for them being surplus on the North Transpennine route well the actual go ahead for the full route to be electrified and timescale remains to be seen, only Huddersfield-Leeds seems fairly likely at present, added to which even on completion they would likely be cascaded to such as the Scarborough route.

In any case 185's are perfectly good enough for a 2-3 hour journey.

If Dft are going to change the operator on this route then it must surely be on the basis of upgrading the service with better rolling, that's why the idea of Northern using 158's makes no sense to me.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The only other possible thing other than TPE using class 185s, when speaking of operator changes for this service, is Greater Anglia using class 755s, since they're very comfortable too apparently.

 

[Domh245]

The only other possible thing other than TPE using class 185s, when speaking of operator changes for this service, is Greater Anglia using class 755s, since they're very comfortable too apparently.

755s would be suitable from an interior specification point of view, but definitely aren't long enough. Similarly, giving the service to GA is just ridiculous as it's so far outside of their operational area. There is nothing however to stop the future operator, whoever it may be, from ordering longer FLIRTs with the GA specification.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

755s would be suitable from an interior specification point of view, but definitely aren't long enough. Similarly, giving the service to GA is just ridiculous as it's so far outside of their operational area. There is nothing however to stop the future operator, whoever it may be, from ordering longer FLIRTs with the GA specification.

True, but the service runs to Norwich, where it's pretty much nothing but Greater Anglia!
In fact, this current EMR service is the only non Greater Anglia train that goes to Norwich!

 

[37424]

755s would be suitable from an interior specification point of view, but definitely aren't long enough. Similarly, giving the service to GA is just ridiculous as it's so far outside of their operational area. There is nothing however to stop the future operator, whoever it may be, from ordering longer FLIRTs with the GA specification.

Except their fuel range isn't all that good, its a long run, with little usage on on Electric.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

True...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except their fuel range isn't all that good, its a long run, with little usage on on Electric.

And it's the sort of route that is unlikely to ever be considered for DOO, so there's always a guard who can place a ramp, so low floor is less important.

 

[Domh245]

True, but the service runs to Norwich, where it's pretty much nothing but Greater Anglia!
In fact, this current EMR service is the only non Greater Anglia train that goes to Norwich!

EMR are still running the route from Nottingham to Norwich, GA are needless to say, nowhere near Nottingham-Liverpool. Similarly, operating it all from one end of a very long route is just asking for complications and expense, both TPE & Northern can crew Nottingham-Liverpool from the middle (and one end). It wouldn't be dissimilar to saying that TPE's WCML services should go over to Scotrail because Edinburgh and Glasgow are both predominantly Scotrail stations!

Except their fuel range isn't all that good, its a long run, with little usage on on Electric.

A very good point. Now that I think about it a bit more, would the single powerpack also be enough for a longer unit - The 4 car FLIRT is the 'maximum' for one powerpack as I understand it, so you'd be likely looking at a second power pack for a longer train

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Maybe in the summer, depends on how the coronavirus situation is.
185s look nice outside, I just thought because of two doors instead of the one door that British Intercity trains have, that 185s would not be suitable for Liverpool to Norwich. But, tbf, with good things you guys are telling me, I've changed my mind and 185s could do too.

Another operator train and operator that could do on Norwich to Liverpool is Greater Anglia with 755 FLIRTs. Apparently the 755s (and 745s) are very comfortable, even more comfortable than a IET train! But I won't give my proper opinion until I go on them as I haven't been on neither a British FLIRT nor a IET yet.

EDIT: Speaking of FLIRTs, I've only been on Continental European ones in Germany, and I remember these trains were great to ride.

I think you should stick to the thing in your username...

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I think you should stick to the thing in your username...

??? Sorry, I don't understand that. Could you explain this a bit more, please?

 

[Neptune]

185’s would be absolutely fine for Nottingham - Liverpool. I’ve travelled on them over long distances in both first and standard class without any discomfort. The only problem with them is capacity so doubling up of sets is essential. They are the perfect balance for the long distance and short hop journeys that are required of these types of services (and seemingly so despised by so many on here who believe all long distance services regardless of their stopping pattern should have narrow end doors).

They are perfect for the steep climb over the Pennines and cruise nicely at speed on fast flatter sections. They have the ability to shut an engine down when all are not required (saving precious fuel) and are extremely well built. They would be a massive upgrade from the current EMR 158’s too.

TPE would be a good operator for the service too as there are depots at Sheffield, Man Pic and Lime Street. It also gives a consistent 2tph express offering over the South Transpennine route bringing it a bit more in line with the North Transpennine route.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If they were *really* clever they could get the crossing moves to take place at Slade Lane every 30 minutes in both directions, which in turn would mean a crossing move at Castlefield fifteen minutes later and therefore another simultaneous crossing as part of a wider timetable re-map. This would mean two pairs of Double 185s between Lime Street and Sheffield.

At Sheffield, the Cleethorpes would lose a set which would be joined on the reverse leg back towards Liverpool by a unit. Very good use of capacity. You could reasonably do the same on the Nottingham.

You would assume these fast CLC Express services would all call at Warrington Central, Warrington West and Liverpool South Parkway.

Additional capacity could be added for one of two services to call at Urmston and Birchwood each; Widnes and Hunts Cross (also one in two).

Therefore, between Liverpool and Stockport you'll have:
- 1tph Liverpool Lime St, Liverpool South Pkwy, Hunts Cross, Warrington West, Warrington Ctl, Birchwood, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Stockport.
- 1tph Liverpool Lime St, Liverpool South Pkwy, Widnes, Warrington West, Warrington Ctl, Urmston, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Stockport.

On the Hope Valley, there's a need one has to suggest all trains stopping at Hazel Grove to encourage out-of-Manchester connections, and also at Dore & Totley to provide a decent frequency to/from Sheffield for them. At peak and off-peak, one call in each service at an extra point (one at Edale and one at Chinley to supplement the local hourly service), and then at peak times an extra stop at the two remaining busiest stations of Hope and Hathersage. This would leave only Bamford and Grindleford reliant on stopping trains.

So the end game looks something like:
- 1tph Liverpool Lime St, Liverpool South Pkwy, Hunts Cross, Warrington West, Warrington Ctl, Birchwood, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Stockport, Hazel Grove, Edale, [Hope], Dore & Totley, Sheffield.
- 1tph Liverpool Lime St, Liverpool South Pkwy, Widnes, Warrington West, Warrington Ctl, Urmston, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Stockport, Hazel Grove, Chinley, [Hathersage], Dore & Totley, Sheffield.

Realistically, some could argue deceleration but it's at least more likely to work for the end user.