Boris Johnson Announcement Discussion - 10/05/20

[yorksrob]

With regards to what you say above about driving to Inverness from your area of England, Nicola Sturgeon made reference to such an England to Scotland journey on the BBC this morning reminding the questioner that the Laws of Scotland apply in that area and the Scottish Government ruling on non-essential journeys has not changed and that in Scotland, the "stay at home" message also has not changed.

That's a fair point. My neighbour could drive to Berwick Upon Tweed in that case.

 

[nidave]

And just as I expected, when I took a walk this morning, the buses were far busier and at my local station, there was a long queue at the ticket office and machines, with social distancing out the window. I've already had a call from my employer...

 

[carlberry]

It seems at least one of the teaching unions is unhappy at the proposals regarding the re-opening of schools on June 1st:

Press releases | National Education Union

Our latest press releases.

neu.org.uk

This is hardly a surprise. The government has spent the last six weeks scaring the s*** out of people in regards to the virus, then turns round and 'It's Ok, teachers/cooks etc can all go an mingle with people from 20-30 different family's, some of which don't follow any rules on a good day, and it'll all be ok! However correct and logical the thinking behind it might be, it's still going to be a hard sell!

 

[hwl]

With respect Yorkie, if a 'normal' member had offered their opinion as fact repeatedly in multiple threads you would have told them to stop. This is not confirmed yet and is still disputed within the scientific community.

At least 73 cases and 3 deaths of "Kawasaki" in NY State:

New York warns of children's illness linked to Covid-19 after three deaths

State reports 73 cases of children falling severely ill with toxic shock-like reaction that has symptoms similar to Kawasaki disease

www.theguardian.com

 

[yorkie]

At least 73 cases and 3 deaths of "Kawasaki" in NY State:

New York warns of children's illness linked to Covid-19 after three deaths

State reports 73 cases of children falling severely ill with toxic shock-like reaction that has symptoms similar to Kawasaki disease

www.theguardian.com

From the article:

“We want to reassure parents – this appears to be uncommon. While Kawasaki disease can damage the heart or blood vessels, the heart problems usually go away in five or six weeks, and most children fully recover,” Newburger said.

Also there still don't appear to be any known cases of a child transmitting the virus; that's not to say it cannot happen, but as a rule, the evidence appears to be that they do not.

 

[hwl]

This is hardly a surprise. The government has spent the last six weeks scaring the s*** out of people in regards to the virus, then turns round and 'It's Ok, teachers/cooks etc can all go an mingle with people from 20-30 different family's, some of which don't follow any rules on a good day, and it'll all be ok! However correct and logical the thinking behind it might be, it's still going to be a hard sell!

The return to school mentioned is potentially circa ~50% of primary and ~30% of secondary numbers which should give a reasonable reduction in spread potential. Return to school is much more than just what happen in the class room.

A huge issue in some areas is the reliance on public transport for pupils to get to secondary school hence schools may need to stagger starting time (e.g. later) to avoid the morning peak

 

[Huntergreed]

A huge issue in some areas is the reliance on public transport for pupils to get to secondary school hence schools may need to stagger starting time (e.g. later) to avoid the morning peak

From my town we have 200-250 pupils packed onto two small single decker buses for 15 miles to get to their school of choice, could it be possible to change the rules to “you must attend your nearest school” which certainly would change that commuter flow, combined with perhaps staggered start times by an hour for different year groups?

 

[Belperpete]

A huge issue in some areas is the reliance on public transport for pupils to get to secondary school hence schools may need to stagger starting time (e.g. later) to avoid the morning peak

A particular issue in rural areas where there may only be one school bus to get the kids to school, and one to get them back. Having staggered start and end times would need extra buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From my town we have 200-250 pupils packed onto two small single decker buses for 15 miles to get to their school of choice, could it be possible to change the rules to “you must attend your nearest school” which certainly would change that commuter flow, combined with perhaps staggered start times by an hour for different year groups?

I'd like to see that anyway to be honest. We shouldn't have good and bad schools, we should improve them all so you attend the local one on foot or by bicycle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A particular issue in rural areas where there may only be one school bus to get the kids to school, and one to get them back. Having staggered start and end times would need extra buses.

Coach companies are a bit bored at present and would I'm sure find this somewhat of a saviour.

They could if needed also be contracted to beef up service bus routes, that would require a suspension of PSVAR but in the circumstances this would make sense.

 

[yorkie]

From my town we have 200-250 pupils packed onto two small single decker buses for 15 miles to get to their school of choice, could it be possible to change the rules to “you must attend your nearest school” which certainly would change that commuter flow, combined with perhaps staggered start times by an hour for different year groups?

I'd like to see that anyway to be honest. We shouldn't have good and bad schools, we should improve them all so you attend the local one on foot or by bicycle.

I think this is best created in a new thread. We are a long way from that at present and I know some people would strongly resist this. That said, if it could be achieved, it does sound a good idea to me. It's a whole new topic though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is best created in a new thread. We are a long way from that at present and I know some people would strongly resist this. That said, if it could be achieved, it does sound a good idea to me. It's a whole new topic though!

Shall chuck a thread in in a bit. I'll put it in general discussion as it's not specifically COVID related.

 

[3141]

It seems at least one of the teaching unions is unhappy at the proposals regarding the re-opening of schools on June 1st:

Press releases | National Education Union

Our latest press releases.

neu.org.uk

The lack of a plan for domestic public transport was depressing.
There must be no agreement with the unions/TOCs on either increasing services or social distancing.

Two examples of groups of people being unrealistic. There's no way of eliminating the possibility of becoming infected once you start mixing with other people, and it's impossible for schools or public transport to provide anything remotely like their normal service without people coming in close contact with one another. We will have to get used to the situation. If we try to carry on with social distancing in schools and on transport (and in shops, offices, the street, construction sites, etc.) the basis of our society (65 million people on a small island off Europe) will fall apart. It's just fantasy to imagine that "employers" can magic up a way of enabling a service to work anything like approaching normally while those involved somehow isolate themselves from human contact.

I agree with comments made by some posters (which I haven't quoted) that there is some confusion in what the BJ said yesterday, but I think that's inevitable in the circumstances. There will be things that some can do and others can't, and things that are allowed while something very similar isn't. Life has changed.

 

[C J Snarzell]

To be honest, the speech from Boris Johnson did not spring any surprises that I wasn't anticipating anyway.

The government has clearly focused everything on the physical aspects of the virus & everything else is being left to one side.

As I have said in a previous post - mental health & domestic violence is an every growing issue in this country since the March lockdown. Last night's announcement, doesn't really offer much hope for people who rely on social networks/meetings to function. Any form of social gathering is still off limits so counselling groups for vulnerable people or things like alcohol misuse meetings (AA for example) are still off limits for now, which is devastating for many people.

From reading in between the lines - I would assume the police will ease off their big brother approach in stopping motorists or challenging people travelling on major routes. The problem I see, is that if we continue to get nice weather, places like the Peak District, the Lake District and other tourist locations will simply be swamped with people who think because the draw bridge has been lowered slightly they can go for a day out. This coming weekend could see images of what we saw in March, with roads in Derbyshire & Cumbria brought to a standstill by people flocking to beauty spots. It is clear social distancing needs to be enforced for the foreseeable future but the problem comes when you get several hundred people descending on one location, social distancing is compromised.

Bigger fines for those who flout the lockdown - unfortunately this is an empty gesture as far as I am concerned. Having worked in the public sector myself, the same idiots will continue to do what they want when they want and are simply not deterred by the criminal justice system. I have read various articles from weeks gone by where human specimens have spat at police officers but are then released by the courts!

The hospitality industry - this really is going to be the one that gets shattered beyond repair. BJ has hinted that it may be July before pubs/bars/restaurants/cinemas reopen but only if social distancing can be enforced. Unfortunately, like I have stated in a previous post - social distancing cannot be enforced in places like Weatherspoons or anywhere that sells alcohol in a social environment. My view is that the coffin lid is being lowered on this industry every week. Many people working in the night time economy trade have said they don't foresee they will ever re-open again and I do think last night's announcement is a death sentence for a lot of places.

I am optimistic that we will see light at the end of tunnel and eventually come out the other side but for many there is still a very bumpy road over the next few weeks to overcome.

CJ

 

[CaptainHaddock]

That's a fair point. My neighbour could drive to Berwick Upon Tweed in that case.

But he could only walk as far north as Marshall Meadows....

 

[carlberry]

From my town we have 200-250 pupils packed onto two small single decker buses for 15 miles to get to their school of choice, could it be possible to change the rules to “you must attend your nearest school” which certainly would change that commuter flow, combined with perhaps staggered start times by an hour for different year groups?

I'd suggest reporting the operator as these vehicles are dangerously overloaded if the figures you quote are correct!

 

[yorksrob]

But he could only walk as far north as Marshall Meadows....

Where he'd be headed off by the Scots Guard !

 

[3141]

From my town we have 200-250 pupils packed onto two small single decker buses for 15 miles to get to their school of choice, could it be possible to change the rules to “you must attend your nearest school” which certainly would change that commuter flow, combined with perhaps staggered start times by an hour for different year groups?

Wow! 125 on each of "two small single decker buses"!!!

I'd like to see that anyway to be honest. We shouldn't have good and bad schools, we should improve them all so you attend the local one on foot or by bicycle.

What an excellent idea. The same should apply to hospitals, all types of social support facilities, shopping centres, transport facilities, everything....

 

[Andy Pacer]

Wow! 125 on each of "two small single decker buses"!!!

Perhaps they literally were 'on' (ie the roof) as opposed to inside!

 

[hwl]

From the article:

Also there still don't appear to be any known cases of a child transmitting the virus; that's not to say it cannot happen, but as a rule, the evidence appears to be that they do not.

The jury is still very much out on this.
This is a recent balanced review in nature:

How do children spread the coronavirus? The science still isn’t clear

Schools are beginning to reopen — but scientists are still trying to understand what the deal is with kids and COVID-19.

www.nature.com

The reality is that the transmission rate in children may be far lower than adults but we have no idea what it is. The total quantity of study in this area so far is low, the focus has been elsewhere.

Even if the spread rate in schools is low the number of contacts there and additional contact on the way there / back is large hence the very limited proposed reopening at first.

A major problem for research is that many affected area closed schools early and with out antibody testing or open schools it is very hard to do that research.

 

[Belperpete]

The government has spent the last six weeks scaring the s*** out of people in regards to the virus, then turns round and 'It's Ok, teachers/cooks etc can all go an mingle with people from 20-30 different family's, some of which don't follow any rules on a good day, and it'll all be ok! However correct and logical the thinking behind it might be, it's still going to be a hard sell!

This I think is the main reason behind the change in the message from "stay home" to "stay aware". The government needs to stop scaring people into staying at home. People need to get used to feeling that it is okay to leave home, if they are ever to be persuaded to go back to work (I appreciate that there are a good number of people desperate to get back to work, but a significant number are too concerned, and many businesses will be unviable if significant key workers are absent). The current easements, such as being allowed out for unlimited exercise, may seem small, but are an important step in achieving that change in attitude.

The "stay home" tag is going to become increasingly incompatible as the lockdown rules are gradually released. "Stay aware" has been criticised as being vague, but I suspect that is deliberate. They don't want to have to keep changing the tag every couple of weeks, so have changed it to something that effectively means "stay aware of whatever the restrictions currently are".

 

[sjpowermac]

Well, there's one way they can be sure of that - ballot for industrial action. Then they will know if they are supported or not.

Are they perhaps a little scared of doing that in case it doesn't go in their favour?

The union would be unsuccessful in a ballot. Back in 2015 the strikes over changes to pensions soon fizzled out, and were poorly supported. I think most teachers want to be back at work full time.

 

[scotrail158713]

Also there still don't appear to be any known cases of a child transmitting the virus; that's not to say it cannot happen, but as a rule, the evidence appears to be that they do not.

But how can we work out who transmits the virus? Children are going to be near the bottom of the testing list, so to know who transmits the virus we need to know who has the virus first. And that’s going to be a while away yet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More cross-border fun.
The BBC highlights that Llanymynych Golf Course has 15 holes in England (Shropshire) and 3 in Wales (Powys).
So English players now allowed to use the course will find the 3 Welsh holes "out of bounds".

Not important yet (or at all, maybe), but Chester football stadium is actually sited in Wales, but the only access is on English roads...

 

[Skimpot flyer]

But not Eurostar or ferry?

Unbelievably dumb of the UK Government if they don’t apply quarantine to ALL inbound travellers.
In Australia, they have had under 100 deaths. Most initial cases were imported by people arriving back from overseas, so they instigated quarantine procedures.
There was, however, a huge c0ck-up when the cruise ship Ruby Princess docked in Sydney, and passengers disembarked with no checks and dispersed back to all parts of Australia. A criminal investigation is underway, because at least 600 passengers later tested positive for coronavirus and at least 10 have since died !!!

Coronavirus: Australia launches criminal investigation into Ruby Princess

Passengers from the Ruby Princess disembarked in Sydney without knowing the coronavirus was on board.

www.bbc.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unbelievably dumb of the UK Government if they don’t apply quarantine to ALL inbound travellers.

The problem is that we rely on goods being imported by lorry from France via the channel ports. Nobody is going to be going on holiday at the moment, almost everyone on the boats is transporting freight.

That said, they could work on the basis of changing tractor unit and driver at the border, and maybe they should.

 

[geoffk]

There are a lot of mixed messages in yesterday's announcement by Boris Johnson, while maintaining the rules on social distancing. For example, "It will also be possible for households to drive to other destinations (such as parks and beaches) in England." My nearest beach is Southport, nearly 50 miles away, so is it OK to go there? And can I go for my daily exercise at Shap or Ribblehead, with my camera? It's typical that the weather has gone off! There are some who will try to push the boundaries as far as they can (but we can't go to Wales).

 

[341o2]

More cross-border fun.
The BBC highlights that Llanymynych Golf Course has 15 holes in England (Shropshire) and 3 in Wales (Powys).
So English players now allowed to use the course will find the 3 Welsh holes "out of bounds".

Not important yet (or at all, maybe), but Chester football stadium is actually sited in Wales, but the only access is on English roads...

Likewise, Knighton is in Powys, while its station is in Shropshire

 

[Bletchleyite]

My nearest beach is Southport, nearly 50 miles away, so is it OK to go there? And can I go for my daily exercise at Shap or Ribblehead, with my camera?

It would certainly appear that the answer to both of those is yes, and Gove's interview this morning seemed to back that up. However, before planning the weekend I'd leave it a day or two to see if there are any clarifications.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Likewise, Knighton is in Powys, while its station is in Shropshire

That's of limited relevance because public transport remains for essential use only. Annoying though it may be for some, the exercise easement does not extend to its use, only the use of the private car.