Improving Commuter Services in to Manchester

[JonathanH]

On the south side of Manchester, commuting to the city centre drops off quite markedly beyond the edge of the Greater Manchester conurbation (i.e. south of Hale/Alderley Edge/Poynton), and while there are some substantial towns, in particular Macclesfield, much of East Cheshire is very rural and country stations such as Ashley, Chelford and Adlington do not generate much traffic.

I'm not entirely sure what point you are making - Macclesfield has the facility to reverse a train and there is some demand at the stations you list. I'm trying to suggest that you maintain a fast service from Macclesfield by having a stopping service from there.

 

[daodao]

I'm not entirely sure what point you are making - Macclesfield has the facility to reverse a train and there is some demand at the stations you list. I'm trying to suggest that you maintain a fast service from Macclesfield by having a stopping service from there.

There will be still be fast trains from Macclesfield to Manchester for the foreseeable future.

 

[Purple Orange]

But trains from Stoke to Manchester are commuter services and currently some of that demand is met by people using the long distance trains. Not for the moment worrying about where the trains come from, you would probably run half hourly Stoke, all stations to Macclesfield, then Cheadle Hulme, Stockport and Manchester and then have a train follow all stations from Macclesfield to Manchester.

But what would be the point of a train from south of Stoke? Make it all Stoke-Manc, all stop, with the exception of the Euston-Macclesfield-Piccadilly service

 

[daodao]

But what would be the point of a train from south of Stoke? Make it all Stoke-Manc, all stop, with the exception of the Euston-Macclesfield-Piccadilly service

I would hope that an hourly fast train is also retained from Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly calling at the intermediate stations of Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport. HS2 if it ever materialises will only connect Birmingham and Manchester themselves, bypassing these major towns.

There isn't much commuting to central Manchester from minor Stoke line stations apart from Bramhall and Poynton; an hourly stopping service suffices south of Poynton.

 

[Purple Orange]

I would hope that an hourly fast train is also retained from Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly calling at the intermediate stations of Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport. HS2 if it ever materialises will only connect Birmingham and Manchester themselves, bypassing these major towns.

There isn't much commuting to central Manchester from minor Stoke line stations apart from Bramhall and Poynton; an hourly stopping service suffices south of Poynton.

That’s the point though. There is a lot of commuting from Bramhall and Poynton, just it is done in a car and not on a train. It’s the modal shift that is needed. In order to reduce car journeys and therefore pollution, I would sacrifice the speed of the journey from Wolverhampton (which in any case will be faster via Curzon Street than the current XC service) and Stafford (which will be faster with a change at Crewe).

 

[The Planner]

I would sacrifice the speed of the journey from Wolverhampton (which in any case will be faster via Curzon Street than the current XC service) and Stafford (which will be faster with a change at Crewe).

Not convinced there will be that much in it from Wolves, the XC path (which you want to slow down or remove) is nominally the fastest train from Wolves to New St at 16 minutes, I've no doubt there will be a connection time of at least 15 minutes for a New St to Curzon St hop. HS2 are saying Curzon St to Manchester in 40 minutes. So the replacement from Wolves needs to be a fair bit slower than 70 minutes (which the XC to Manchester is now) to make a dent.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not convinced there will be that much in it from Wolves, the XC path (which you want to slow down or remove) is nominally the fastest train from Wolves to New St at 16 minutes, I've no doubt there will be a connection time of at least 15 minutes for a New St to Curzon St hop. HS2 are saying Curzon St to Manchester in 40 minutes. So the replacement from Wolves needs to be a fair bit slower than 70 minutes (which the XC to Manchester is now) to make a dent.

Given there won’t be much in it, duplicating a route by continuing the XC service between Brum and Manc as it currently is appears to be a waste of a train path. It may well be faster to change at the Crewe Hub as well.

But then this all points to some of the issues people have pointed out for years; some towns will lose out due to HS2.

 

[daodao]

Given there won’t be much in it, duplicating a route by continuing the XC service between Brum and Manc as it currently is appears to be a waste of a train path. It may well be faster to change at the Crewe Hub as well. But then this all points to some of the issues people have pointed out for years; some towns will lose out due to HS2.

The whole point of building new rail infrastructure should be to improve journeys and connectivity, not reduce it. Building separate HS stations, such as Birmingham Curzon Street (and the proposed Toton interchange) does the opposite for many journeys. The proposed HS2 service from Manchester to Birmingham Curzon St will only be useful to passengers travelling from Manchester and suburbs, and points beyond, to Birmingham itself; 1 tph should suffice for this demand, with 1 slower semi-fast service retained between New Street and Piccadilly to serve intermediate points and provide easy connections and/or through trains to destinations to the south and south-west of Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham Curzon Street isn't much more of a walk from New St than Manchester Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 presently are from the main concourse there.

At the moment it's through a grim, smelly subway, but that would be relatively cheap to resolve.

 

[daodao]

Birmingham Curzon Street isn't much more of a walk from New St than Manchester Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 presently are from the main concourse there. At the moment it's through a grim, smelly subway, but that would be relatively cheap to resolve.

i once changed trains from Moor St to New St in Brum, with a suitcase. Never again. [On the way to Stratford, I changed at Sandwell & Dudley and then Smethwick Galton Bridge - much easier.]

 

[HSTEd]

This does lead us to an interesting possibility for a second thread - rearranging Birmingham commuter trains to better integrate with HS2.

 

[Purple Orange]

The whole point of building new rail infrastructure should be to improve journeys and connectivity, not reduce it. Building separate HS stations, such as Birmingham Curzon Street (and the proposed Toton interchange) does the opposite for many journeys. The proposed HS2 service from Manchester to Birmingham Curzon St will only be useful to passengers travelling from Manchester and suburbs, and points beyond, to Birmingham itself; 1 tph should suffice for this demand, with 1 slower semi-fast service retained between New Street and Piccadilly to serve intermediate points and provide easy connections and/or through trains to destinations to the south and south-west of Birmingham.

With all due respect, cities the size of Birmingham and Manchester certainly have the population and demand to fill 2 or 3 tph, which makes sense to go via the 40 min route on HS2. If anything, I’d expect passenger flows to increase in a big way with a 40 min journey time. Essentially as it is bringing Birmingham in to a similar orbit around Manchester as Leeds and Liverpool are today.

 

[Purple Orange]

This does lead us to an interesting possibility for a second thread - rearranging Birmingham commuter trains to better integrate with HS2.

Exactly. This is happening with London and there is no reason why it should not happen with Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester. The whole point of HS2 is expand the jobs markets for those cities, so 1 fast tph to Stafford and Wolverhampton or South Wales that might prevent 2 tph running all stop commuter services is a huge waste of potential.

 

[daodao]

Exactly. This is happening with London and there is no reason why it should not happen with Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester. The whole point of HS2 is expand the jobs markets for those cities, so 1 fast tph to Stafford and Wolverhampton or South Wales that might prevent 2 tph running all stop commuter services is a huge waste of potential.

The only local stations on the ex-LNW routes south of Manchester that don't currently have 2 tph off-peak and might merit this level of service are Bramhall, Poynton and Congleton (the latter was on the NSR and is not really a dormitory suburb of Manchester). A recast service on the ex-North Staffs lines, post opening of HS2 to Crewe, could comprise 1 tph for each of:

1. Piccadilly - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke - Stafford - HS2 - Euston
2. Piccadilly - Stockport - Macclesfield - Congleton - Stoke - Stafford - Wolverhampton - New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington Spa & principal stations to Poole
3. Piccadilly - Stockport - Cheadle Hulme - Bramhall - Poynton - Macclesfield and all stations to Stoke (Mon-Sat 0700-1900 only)
4. Piccadilly - Stockport and all stations to Macclesfield (not quite on the ex-NSR apart from the last 400 yards), extended all stations to Stoke evenings and Sundays.
5. Crewe and all stations via Stoke to Wolverhampton, then Sandwell & Dudley and Birmingham New Street.
6. Crewe and all stations via Stoke and Derby to Nottingham (calling at Pear Tree peak hours only)

 

[LOL The Irony]

On the south side of Manchester, commuting to the city centre drops off quite markedly beyond the edge of the Greater Manchester conurbation (i.e. south of Hale/Alderley Edge/Poynton), and while there are some substantial towns, in particular Macclesfield, much of East Cheshire is very rural and country stations such as Ashley, Chelford and Adlington do not generate much traffic.

That doesn't mean entire lines should get stuffed because of rural stations with little use along the line. If we used that logic, most lines would see very little service.