Rail services to be increased on May 18th

[yorksrob]

I suspect what we'll see is "one person per unit of seating" (i.e. row or bay of 4) plus masks. Even if masks aren't that effective, they could be used psychologically to "justify" a climbdown from the 2m in some circumstances, as I'd probably say the vast majority of the public think they might have at least some effect.

Indeed. It's only natural that the Government would want to point to something actially happening elsewhere to justify such a change in policy. It makes sense in that way.

 

[bramling]

There is also the issue of do key workers get priority if capacity is finite? Will they need to show some form of ID in order to be allowed onto the platforms? Who polices this?

If we had a situation of queues (which I don’t think we will) then there would *have* to be priority for certain people. The impact of, say, a LNER driver travelling to work on GTR not being able to book-on at the correct time would be catastrophic.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes it’s never really quite been achieved so far even in London. Ultimately people will do it, perhaps moan and sound off, and unfortunately this means there’s some likelihood we’ll see infections start rising again.

It simply won’t be viable to have supermarket-type scenes with people queuing outside stations. About the only place where that would just about work is the Waterloo & City Line! Key workers rely on being in particular places at particular times, and if they miss planned trains due to things like queues then things will start to break down. Fortunately most key workers don’t travel at traditional times.

It would be better if it were done in a managed way - for example, moving to only one out of a pair of airline seats taken (unless for a couple in the same household).

 

[MDB1images]

There is also the issue of do key workers get priority if capacity is finite? Will they need to show some form of ID in order to be allowed onto the platforms? Who polices this?

Think most key workers got letters at the start of this that if challenged they could produce(don't think it ever got to that), certainly the BTP have done checks to ensure people on stations have a valid reason to be their so most key workers may be used to it.
They'll have heard all the Station and on board announcements so would know what the score is so I'd imagine they'll be ok.

 

[bramling]

It would be better if it were done in a managed way - for example, moving to only one out of a pair of airline seats taken (unless for a couple in the same household).

It will be amusing to watch what happens with Thameslink’s declassified first. From what I hear passive-aggressive, or in some cases more aggressive, competition over these seats is quite common. No doubt some will prefer to take their chances rather than suffer a standard ironing board!

Some behaviours are going to have to change pronto.

 

[yorksrob]

It will be amusing to watch what happens with Thameslink’s declassified first. From what I hear passive-aggressive, or in some cases more aggressive, competition over these seats is quite common. No doubt some will prefer to take their chances rather than suffer a standard ironing board!

Some behaviours are going to have to change pronto.

I'd be surprised if such trivialities were foremost in peoples minds in current circumstances.

 

[bramling]

Think most key workers got letters at the start of this that if challenged they could produce(don't think it ever got to that), certainly the BTP have done checks to ensure people on stations have a valid reason to be their so most key workers may be used to it.
They'll have heard all the Station and on board announcements so would know what the score is so I'd imagine they'll be ok.

The problem is you can’t really turf someone off a train to make way for a key worker. Likewise although there’s been some preferential access in places like supermarkets, in reality people have experienced abuse when they’ve taken it up.

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, key workers don’t tend to coincide with the masses, and even if there’s an element of staggered timings I can’t see many office types going in at 0500 or coming home at 2200 with no pubs open, so it probably won’t be too much of an issue. I bet there will be the odd problem though.

 

[bramling]

I'd be surprised if such trivialities were foremost in peoples minds in current circumstances.

I wouldn’t! First day back and I bet we’ll have the same people trying for their usual seats, and the like. At my work we have one individual who cannot tolerate that a computer has been moved slightly to achieve the required spacing.

 

[Class83]

As my employer put it, regarding office workers going back to the office, “it’s going to be a very small percentage of our population, we believe that is going to be roughly 25% for six to nine months”.

Pretty much exactly the same as my employer is saying, max 25% occupancy, you have to request to come in and state why you need to be there, probably for most of this year.

But it will reduce the number of people on the train, bus or road to get there.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn’t! First day back and I bet we’ll have the same people trying for their usual seats, and the like. At my work we have one individual who cannot tolerate that a computer has been moved slightly to achieve the required spacing.

I speak as someone who used to get very dissappointed if I didn't get the second class compartment in a slammer. I'd be more concerned with just getting somewhere at the moment.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Sorry somebody has to say it, the government has completely lost the plot, this virus has killed 0.04% of the uk population (obviously that’s no consolation to those who’ve sadly passed away) and they acting like they’re in a blind panic and risk harming far far more people than will be affected by COVID

They have to treat people like grown ups and that means stop trying to scare people, people need to work and we’ve already seen lots of people don’t have the luxury of being able to work from home. What the SOS has announced is completely unworkable and i have my popcorn on standby ready to watch someone try to enforce it

 

[chris11256]

Sorry somebody has to say it, the government has completely lost the plot, this virus has killed 0.04% of the uk population (obviously that’s no consolation to those who’ve sadly passed away) and they acting like they’re in a blind panic and risk harming far far more people than will be affected by COVID

They have to treat people like grown ups and that means stop trying to scare people, people need to work and we’ve already seen lots of people don’t have the luxury of being able to work from home. What the SOS has announced is completely unworkable and i have my popcorn on standby ready to watch someone try to enforce it

This is why I don't think the '10% capacity' thing will work for more than a month or two. I remember seeing a diagram that showed that a typical tube carriage would take about 7 people if 2m distancing is rigidly enforced. Eventually you get to the point where if capacity is so limited there's no point trying to use it in the first place. If the government isn't careful we'll see an explosion of car traffic as former train commuters migrate back to cars that'll be impossible to reverse.

Unless of course this is what Shapps has been told to say, and the speech tomorrow will have no mention and will require masks on trains and distancing where possible.

 

[Huntergreed]

Sorry somebody has to say it, the government has completely lost the plot, this virus has killed 0.04% of the uk population (obviously that’s no consolation to those who’ve sadly passed away) and they acting like they’re in a blind panic and risk harming far far more people than will be affected by COVID

They have to treat people like grown ups and that means stop trying to scare people, people need to work and we’ve already seen lots of people don’t have the luxury of being able to work from home. What the SOS has announced is completely unworkable and i have my popcorn on standby ready to watch someone try to enforce it

I couldn't agree more, and I think that some experts are now realising that the government tactic of trying to scare the public into their homes was a mistake as it has worked all too well. The messaging is changing on Monday with the 'stay at home' slogan being dropped, but even so I would imagine there's countless people out there who will be able to return to work but refuse to due to fear through political scare mongering which, although very effective for the short term, may be about to damage the economy in a way they didn't see, as I know a lot of people who are refusing to send their kids back to school or return to work when these places until the death count drops to nigh on 0, which as it's not a 'deaths from' but 'deaths with' count, it just unrealistic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it’s never really quite been achieved so far even in London. Ultimately people will do it, perhaps moan and sound off, and unfortunately this means there’s some likelihood we’ll see infections start rising again.

London is the big problem because of the Tube. I'm really not sure what the answer to it is.

 

[chris11256]

I couldn't agree more, and I think that some experts are now realising that the government tactic of trying to scare the public into their homes was a mistake as it has worked all too well. The messaging is changing on Monday with the 'stay at home' slogan being dropped, but even so I would imagine there's countless people out there who will be able to return to work but refuse to due to fear through political scare mongering which, although very effective for the short term, may be about to damage the economy in a way they didn't see, as I know a lot of people who are refusing to send their kids back to school or return to work when these places until the death count drops to nigh on 0, which as it's not a 'deaths from' but 'deaths with' count, it just unrealistic.

Exactly, some friends of mine were absolutely horrified that the average death rate is about 1400 people per day normally. People have been lead to believe that even one single death is too many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, some friends of mine were absolutely horrified that the average death rate is about 1400 people per day normally. People have been lead to believe that even one single death is too many.

That's because we've been sanitised into hiding from death because modern life is so safe.

Spending a fortune to stop the very occasional person getting their head knocked off on trains with droplights is a clear example.

 

[RT4038]

That's because we've been sanitised into hiding from death because modern life is so safe.

Spending a fortune to stop the very occasional person getting their head knocked off on trains with droplights is a clear example.

Am I being thick, or is 1400 per day a bit low? If our population is 66,000,000 and the average life expectancy 85 with 365 days in year = about 2 125 per day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I being thick, or is 1400 per day a bit low? If our population is 66,000,000 and the average life expectancy 85 with 365 days in year = about 2 125 per day?

When I worked it out (for 2018 I think) it was about 1700.

 

[Huntergreed]

Exactly, some friends of mine were absolutely horrified that the average death rate is about 1400 people per day normally. People have been lead to believe that even one single death is too many.

The problem is most people have no clue of the normal scale of death in society. In an average year 500,000 brits die, and that's around 1,360 per day. It does sound like a lot but the death rate from covid (ie people who would have lived perfectly fine and have no condition but have died simply through catching the virus) I imagine is shockingly low.

I absolutely hate being called selfish when I express my views on this as is normally the case, but I do feel the future prospects of the younger generation are being put under significant risk to save the limited number whom are shielding and many of whom would likely not survive for long whether they catch the virus or not. Don't get me wrong of course I want to protect the vulnerable but when it comes to risking the future of a whole generation and our economy, a balance must be struck which at the moment it just isn't. The biggest killer out of this in my opinion will be mental health and loss of livelihood, which i fear will kill a whole order of magnitude more than those who actually die from Covid rather than just with it in their system from another condition.

 

[trebor79]

Sorry somebody has to say it, the government has completely lost the plot, this virus has killed 0.04% of the uk population (obviously that’s no consolation to those who’ve sadly passed away) and they acting like they’re in a blind panic and risk harming far far more people than will be affected by COVID

They have to treat people like grown ups and that means stop trying to scare people, people need to work and we’ve already seen lots of people don’t have the luxury of being able to work from home. What the SOS has announced is completely unworkable and i have my popcorn on standby ready to watch someone try to enforce it

Completely agree. I grow more disappointed with the government as each day passes.
FWIW I believe Boris was intending to announce a more significant relaxation but was bounced by his provincial counterparts into something less extensive.
The thing about running trains with token numbers of passengers on board just smacks of desperation and bit thinking through the implications and practicalities.

 

[chris11256]

I do think that by the end of may the DFT will want operators running essentially a 'peak' service in all but name. If they want a degree of distancing, they'll want as many trains as possible.

 

[bramling]

I do think that by the end of may the DFT will want operators running essentially a 'peak' service in all but name. If they want a degree of distancing, they'll want as many trains as possible.

They may want it, but they’re unlikely to get it for as long as a proportion of staff are shielded. The remaining staff can’t be expected to keep running the show forever, the collective supply of fuel will run out. There’s a limit to how much rest day working and the like can be worked before people burn out. Ultimately that could prove dangerous.

Some choices may have to be made regarding which parts of the network are a priority, or which times of day, as allocation of resources in a way which maximises benefits may be necessary.

 

[JonathanH]

In an average year 500,000 brits die, and that's around 1,360 per day.

500,000 is closer to the figure for England. UK deaths are closer to 600,000 a year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some choices may have to be made regarding which parts of the network are a priority, or which times of day, as allocation of resources in a way which maximises benefits may be necessary.

Or run fewer trains but all maxed out in length. For instance, everything on the south WCML 12-car but a Saturday pattern.

 

[bramling]

Or run fewer trains but all maxed out in length. For instance, everything on the south WCML 12-car but a Saturday pattern.

Yes I presume this will happen where practicable. On a related note, don’t expect a return to things like late-night vomit comets. Staff have had a taste of not having to tolerate this sort of thing for two or three nights of the week!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I presume this will happen where practicable. On a related note, don’t expect a return to things like late-night vomit comets. Staff have had a taste of not having to tolerate this sort of thing for two or three nights of the week!

There won't be any anyway because there's no pubs to get drunk in!

 

[LAX54]

I suspect what we'll see is "one person per unit of seating" (i.e. row or bay of 4) plus masks. Even if masks aren't that effective, they could be used psychologically to "justify" a climbdown from the 2m in some circumstances, as I'd probably say the vast majority of the public think they might have at least some effect.

Maybe the Gov, will now adopt the 'WHO' social distancing guidelines, which is 1 metre / 3 feet, which I think some other Countries have already adopted ? I did hear some Countries went for 2 metres, as they reckoned the public would under estimate 1 metre !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the Gov, will now adopt the 'WHO' social distancing guidelines, which is 1 metre / 3 feet, which I think some other Countries have already adopted ? I did hear some Countries went for 2 metres, as they reckoned the public would under estimate 1 metre !

I've seen it confirmed (though I forget where) that that's why we did.

 

[Aictos]

Think most key workers got letters at the start of this that if challenged they could produce(don't think it ever got to that), certainly the BTP have done checks to ensure people on stations have a valid reason to be their so most key workers may be used to it.
They'll have heard all the Station and on board announcements so would know what the score is so I'd imagine they'll be ok.

Oh indeed, although I think you find that any letter would only be accepted with proof of ID eg a work ID badge etc...

 

[111-111-1]

London is the big problem because of the Tube. I'm really not sure what the answer to it is.

Any flow where there is a commuter flow there is a problem. You have never explained how compulsory reservations will be enforced on intercity trains let alone local services. yes you can put numbers on seats but how do you control the actual people boarding the trains where there are not proper barrier checks?