Improving Commuter Services in to Manchester

[Bletchleyite]

It strikes me that daodao is overlooking (knowingly or not) the fact that, in combination with NPR, almost all long distance services will be removed from the current Manchester rail network. Even with just HS2, paths between Piccadilly-Stockport-Crewe/Stoke will become available for different services. That presents the opportunity to provide greater frequency in 20 years from now, but then part of the question is what can be done in the meantime.

Probably not do an awful lot on say the WCML in terms of frequency, but trains could and should be lengthened.

 

[Purple Orange]

Probably not do an awful lot on say the WCML in terms of frequency, but trains could and should be lengthened.

Yes trains should be lengthened, but if the principal on the south WCML is to achieve an improved frequency in to Euston, how would that same principal not apply to the WCML heading in to Manchester, Birmingham and ECML in to Leeds?

If the plan for Manchester is:

• 3 tph Piccadilly-Euston via Manc Airport
• 2 tph Piccadilly-Curzon Street via Manc Airport
• 1 tph Piccadilly-Euston via Stoke. (I’m assuming the Macclesfield-Euston service ends up in Piccadilly via Stockport)

That means 2 of the 3 Avanti West Coast services are removed and the two XC services are removed, thus presenting the opportunity to reset the timetable and service provision in to Piccadilly. There is a question of how Bristol is served, but keeping the two XC services alongside the Manc-Brum HS2 services seems overkill. Reading and the South Coast will also be faster going via OOC and central London respectively.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I can see more CrossCountry services post-HS2 due to the released capacity at New Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes trains should be lengthened, but if the principal on the south WCML is to achieve an improved frequency in to Euston, how would that same principal not apply to the WCML heading in to Manchester, Birmingham and ECML in to Leeds?

I wasn't answering with regard to HS2, I was answering the point I quoted which was (paraphrased) "what can be done before then".

Post-HS2 I would like to see @Bantamzen proven wrong ( ) and a Merseyrail style 25kV "S-Bahn-Manchester" operating in parallel to Metrolink, possibly under some kind of related branding (shame WYPTE already has MetroTrain! )

Fully clockface timetable, 4 or 6tph frequencies, appropriate high capacity rolling stock, with Castlefield as its core and other stuff moved elsewhere. I still hold out hope of the new Eastlands arena meeting with great success, killing off the "Nynex" and allowing it to be demolished and Victoria razed and rebuilt into a decent second "Hauptbahnhof" to take the through long distance services, with perhaps 8 or 10 long through platforms divided into halves (allowing terminating and through services), a grand overall roof and a retail and restaurant offering as good as Piccadilly's.

 

[Purple Orange]

I wasn't answering with regard to HS2, I was answering the point I quoted which was (paraphrased) "what can be done before then".

Post-HS2 I would like to see @Bantamzen proven wrong ( ) and a Merseyrail style 25kV "S-Bahn-Manchester" operating in parallel to Metrolink, possibly under some kind of related branding (shame WYPTE already has MetroTrain! )

Fully clockface timetable, 4 or 6tph frequencies, appropriate high capacity rolling stock, with Castlefield as its core and other stuff moved elsewhere. I still hold out hope of the new Eastlands arena meeting with great success, killing off the "Nynex" and allowing it to be demolished and Victoria razed and rebuilt into a decent second "Hauptbahnhof" to take the through long distance services, with perhaps 8 or 10 long through platforms divided into halves (allowing terminating and through services), a grand overall roof and a retail and restaurant offering as good as Piccadilly's.

Ah I see, sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from there. Yes, prior to full HS2 I agree, it will be difficult. The only possible opportunity I see is for residents who live near stations near and within the M60, whereby a metrolink line could be built to attract people from trains to trams. Alas, such plans do not appear to be forthcoming. In my view, whether additional capacity is delivered via heavy rail or light rail is neither here nor there, but the main factor is attracting more people out of their cars, and increase cleaner modes of transport.

The new Eastlands arena is an interesting one. If it was down to me, I’d also opt for a similar idea to yours with Victoria gaining several new through platforms in the process. From a blank piece of paper, I’d add in 4 additional through platforms, with the residual space given to building a large public realm area and new entrance to the station from the north of the city. There will be a lot of building work taking place on that side of the city and as it stands, it will be cut off by the arena.

 

[Purple Orange]

I can see more CrossCountry services post-HS2 due to the released capacity at New Street.

I think that would be a wasted opportunity for West Midlands residents. Those paths should be used for 6-8 car commuter services in to New St.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think that would be a wasted opportunity for West Midlands residents. Those paths should be used for 6-8 car commuter services in to New St.

CrossCountry needs extra capacity and HS2 provides a perfect opportunity. You can still have extra commuter trains and have more long_Distance services.

 

[HSTEd]

If the real estate market crashes, you might be able to have an actual Manchester Hbf on the soon-to-be-abandoned North Campus of the University.
Double the size of Manchester Picadilly and reduce Victoria to an Oxford Road esque station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that would be a wasted opportunity for West Midlands residents. Those paths should be used for 6-8 car commuter services in to New St.

Agreed. A decent commuter service could allow the local passengers to be taken off XC and it would do a fair bit to help the overcrowding issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the real estate market crashes, you might be able to have an actual Manchester Hbf on the soon-to-be-abandoned North Campus of the University.
Double the size of Manchester Picadilly and reduce Victoria to an Oxford Road esque station.

You could, but that's half way to Oxford Road.

If you're going to build extra through platforms onto Piccadilly, they need to go on the car park site that's presently spare adjacent to the present 13/14 as per the 15/16 proposals. Just get it done before someone puts something else up there and makes it impossible.

 

[The Planner]

I think that would be a wasted opportunity for West Midlands residents. Those paths should be used for 6-8 car commuter services in to New St.

Not sure how you utilise them considering they are non stop to/from Wolves, they are no good for the local stations.

 

[Purple Orange]

If the real estate market crashes, you might be able to have an actual Manchester Hbf on the soon-to-be-abandoned North Campus of the University.
Double the size of Manchester Picadilly and reduce Victoria to an Oxford Road esque station.

You could, but that's half way to Oxford Road.

If you're going to build extra through platforms onto Piccadilly, they need to go on the car park site that's presently spare adjacent to the present 13/14 as per the 15/16 proposals. Just get it done before someone puts something else up there and makes it impossible.

Id say the Mayfield proposal as it stands is far more beneficial to the city than giving the land over to the railway. The opportunity of a completely new area of the city centre and a new park is not to be missed. Plus there is already plans for the north campus as far as I understand.

 

[HSTEd]

Id say the Mayfield proposal as it stands is far more beneficial to the city than giving the land over to the railway. The opportunity of a completely new area of the city centre and a new park is not to be missed. Plus there is already plans for the north campus as far as I understand.

Given the pending collapse of the economy, with per capita GDP falling to some time in the mid 90s, any present plans are probably junk.

It is also likely that development of a proper Manchester station would net reduce land given over to the railway.....

Also the Mayfield site is not really in the best position..... I don't think a Manchester Hbf would use most of it.

EDIT:

To clarify, there is a lot of railway land in Salford and such that woudl not be needed any more under a Manchester Hbf proposal, the terminating platforms at Victoria would become redundant and that space could be used for more concessions, the Picadilly terminating platforms would be redundant and the station concourse would move under the original station roof, freeing the land in front of the station where the existing concourse is for redevelopment.

The new station throat could probably fit around the hotel, but demolishing it and rebuilding it would make it easier.

This would require two extra tracks through the Castlefield corridor, but almost all of it's length is either adjacent to a road (which can have a cantilever over it) or is University property and about to become redundant anyway.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not sure how you utilise them considering they are non stop to/from Wolves, they are no good for the local stations.

But what would be the need of XC in to Birmingham if that market is be8ng served by HS2? N9n stop Stafford-Wolves-New St wouldn’t be utilising the demand from th3 intermediated stations at all. Consistent speed and more frequent. Is that not the game here?

 

[Purple Orange]

Given the pending collapse of the economy, with per capita GDP falling to some time in the mid 90s, any present plans are probably junk.

It is also likely that development of a proper Manchester station would net reduce land given over to the railway.....

Also the Mayfield site is not really in the best position..... I don't think a Manchester Hbf would use most of it.

I doubt your pessimism is quite well placed there. Anything more than P15-16 in to a site on the north campus will encroach on the Mayfield plans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think a single Manchester Hbf is feasible or worthwhile. I'd stick with two Hbfs - just make Victoria more equivalent to Piccadilly in being one, not the vile, fume-ridden dump it presently is.

 

[HSTEd]

I doubt your pessimism is quite well placed there.

Well those stats are supposedly the ones coming out of the treasury, 30% drop in GDP by the end of the second quarter.

nything more than P15-16 in to a site on the north campus will encroach on the Mayfield plans.

Mayfield is a hell of a lot further east, there will be no platforms that far, and running lines are a hell of a lot narrower than platforms.

Since the station would have a huge undercroft, it might also be worth diverting bus routes into it and building a new central bus station under there.....


I suppose in essence I'm saying the sale of such a large parcel of land, all at once, represents a once in a lifetime opportunity and I am deeply disturbed by the failure of the Mayoral authority to seize on it.
We could have an integrated rail/bus/tram system with a central hub, all at once.

 

[The Planner]

But what would be the need of XC in to Birmingham if that market is be8ng served by HS2? N9n stop Stafford-Wolves-New St wouldn’t be utilising the demand from th3 intermediated stations at all. Consistent speed and more frequent. Is that not the game here?

Which was why I was asking how you utilise the paths released, they are fast paths, not ones that suddenly have the ability to stick more stops in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which was why I was asking how you utilise the paths released, they are fast paths, not ones that suddenly have the ability to stick more stops in.

That assumes you keep the same paths. Why would you? You would totally recast it.

 

[The Planner]

That assumes you keep the same paths. Why would you? You would totally recast it.

I think you will be surprised about what is and isn't, Cov corridor yes, elsewhere in the West Mids? not necessarily.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think you will be surprised about what is and isn't, Cov corridor yes, elsewhere in the West Mids? not necessarily.

Ph2b would surely allow for a recast of the wolves to new st services. Why wouldn’t it be all stop between the two?

 

[Senex]

This would require two extra tracks through the Castlefield corridor, but almost all of it's length is either adjacent to a road (which can have a cantilever over it) or is University property and about to become redundant anyway.

That seems a very pessimistic view of the future of MMU! Though I'm wholly with you about the need for quadrupling the South Junction line (and getting better junctions, and if another 10 or 15 mph can be squeezed out of the alignment, so much the better).

 

[JonathanH]

Ph2b would surely allow for a recast of the wolves to new st services. Why wouldn’t it be all stop between the two?

Would it really be appropriate for trains from Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth to call all stations from Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street?

I'm the same way, there would still need to be some faster trains from Stoke and Macclesfield into Manchester but they don't necessarily need to come from Birmingham.

 

[daodao]

Returning to the thread header:

1. Convert as many lines as possible to Metrolink, as they are cheaper to run and provide more frequent services.
2. Get rid of cross-city very long-distance services, other than on the Liverpool-Victoria-Leeds axis, as they clog up and disrupt the Castlefield corridor with services that have inherent poor time-keeping; this particularly applies to long-distance services to/from the Airport, which really don't need to extend beyond historic Lancashire and the West Riding.
3. Keep the service patterns simple and easy to remember, without skip-stopping.
4. Electrify as much as possible other than rural lines (e.g. Buxton and Mid Cheshire lines).

HS2 won't reach Manchester itself for at least 20 years, so is essentially irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

[HSTEd]

That seems a very pessimistic view of the future of MMU! Though I'm wholly with you about the need for quadrupling the South Junction line (and getting better junctions, and if another 10 or 15 mph can be squeezed out of the alignment, so much the better).

That's not MMU, I'm talking about the University of Manchester North Campus (ex UMIST).
It's all about to get axed when we are made to move into the New engineering building.

 

[Purple Orange]

Would it really be appropriate for trains from Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth to call all stations from Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street?

I'm the same way, there would still need to be some faster trains from Stoke and Macclesfield into Manchester but they don't necessarily need to come from Birmingham.

But what services would those fast trains be? They would have to be new services. And why should occasional long distance passengers, (who could change at Crewe, Birmingham, or OOC, or even go through London such as the Bournemouth and Reading passengers) be prioritised over additional commuter services?

With regard to Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth, yes I’d argue they should be. Just like London Midland trains call at intermediate stations between Cov and Brum.

 

[Purple Orange]

Returning to the thread header:

1. Convert as many lines as possible to Metrolink, as they are cheaper to run and provide more frequent services.
2. Get rid of cross-city very long-distance services, other than on the Liverpool-Victoria-Leeds axis, as they clog up and disrupt the Castlefield corridor with services that have inherent poor time-keeping; this particularly applies to long-distance services to/from the Airport, which really don't need to extend beyond historic Lancashire and the West Riding.
3. Keep the service patterns simple and easy to remember, without skip-stopping.
4. Electrify as much as possible other than rural lines (e.g. Buxton and Mid Cheshire lines).

HS2 won't reach Manchester itself for at least 20 years, so is essentially irrelevant to the current discussion.

Very sensible suggestions. But if the Manchester Airport services are being limited to Lancashire and Yorkshire services, it may as well stick with keeping the Glasgow/Edinburgh and Newcastle services given they all go through Lancashire and Yorkshire. Plus those trains have greater capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

But what services would those fast trains be? They would have to be new services. And why should occasional long distance passengers, (who could change at Crewe, Birmingham, or OOC, or even go through London such as the Bournemouth and Reading passengers) be prioritised over additional commuter services?

But trains from Stoke to Manchester are commuter services and currently some of that demand is met by people using the long distance trains. Not for the moment worrying about where the trains come from, you would probably run half hourly Stoke, all stations to Macclesfield, then Cheadle Hulme, Stockport and Manchester and then have a train follow all stations from Macclesfield to Manchester.

 

[daodao]

Very sensible suggestions. But if the Manchester Airport services are being limited to Lancashire and Yorkshire services, it may as well stick with keeping the Glasgow/Edinburgh and Newcastle services given they all go through Lancashire and Yorkshire. Plus those trains have greater capacity.

No - I meant Northern Rail regional services to Liverpool/Blackpool/Bradford/Leeds, not long distance expresses to Scotland and North-East England, whose poor time-keeping, station dwell times and train length cause a lot of the problems on the Castlefield link.

 

[daodao]

But trains from Stoke to Manchester are commuter services and currently some of that demand is met by people using the long distance trains. Not for the moment worrying about where the trains come from, you would probably run half hourly Stoke, all stations to Macclesfield, then Cheadle Hulme, Stockport and Manchester and then have a train follow all stations from Macclesfield to Manchester.

On the south side of Manchester, commuting to the city centre drops off quite markedly beyond the edge of the Greater Manchester conurbation (i.e. south of Hale/Alderley Edge/Poynton), and while there are some substantial towns, in particular Macclesfield, much of East Cheshire is very rural and country stations such as Ashley, Chelford and Adlington do not generate much traffic.