CrossCountry - could it be improved in a way that would make internal flights less attractive?

[Bletchleyite]

So this came up on the COVID thread but I thought it merited its own (and it's wider than COVID).

Could XC be improved so it made internal flights from e.g. Southampton and Birmingham unattractive, rather than just having the feel of what a Megabus would be like if they allowed standing?

I'm not so much thinking speeding it up, that's probably not viable. But could other measures work, to make the journey more useful (for work) or more pleasant to make it feel part of the holiday (for leisure)? For example the following?

• A Standard class layout better suited to working on a laptop, more similar to that in the Voyager hybrid "Coach D" or the Class 397, i.e. more tables and what airline seats there are at a good pitch to make using a laptop on your knee for work viable?
• Perhaps make First Class more affordable as an alternative?
• Or even a third "business class" with 2+2 seating but designed with premium features to encourage working on board, e.g. free "premium" wifi with a large data allowance, compulsory reservations, "proper" tables even in airline seats, sockets, free tea/coffee? BR did something a bit like this with the HST BSO turned round backwards to separate it from the rest of the train and appropriately called it "Voyager".
• For families, how about an SBB style "family coach" with a play area and a layout more suitable for families? I'm reminded of the XC "game train", a wooden panelled Mk2 set with board games printed on the tables.
• A standing bar area for those wanting a drink? Needn't take up much more room than the shop.
• At-seat service of decent microwaveable meals (I'm thinking chillies, curries and the likes - see the DB Bistro menu) served on proper crockery?

I'm sort of thinking something looking a bit like DB ICE, I suppose. Which given that Germany is polycentric, I suppose is a "quality" version of what XC is?

Thoughts?

 

[TheJRB]

I always thought of XC as more like an IC rather than ICE but I absolutely agree.

The German model of having the main backbone route with extensions is pretty much how it currently operates but there are ICs to lots more places than the equivalent to the network that XC runs. A return to the Southern region would be welcome but lack of paths around London and things like the Redhill reversal to get to Kent set those routes back a bit.

I do think there’s scope to many more routes than we currently have though. The desire in recent decades has been to take it all down to a frequent commuter operation as demand has necessitated but I think there’s something to be said for direct daily connections between towns and cities.

 

[Ianno87]

1) Absolutely more capacity (at a cost of course). Double Voyagers (or equivalent) as standard to not make trains feel overly full. If you want to gwnuinely attract long distance demand with folks who want to work on the go, people shouldn't be worried about having a scrum just to get a decent seat or about moving 5 times around all the other reservations.

1a) Counted Place reservations only for solo travellers (excluding disabled and senior railcard holders). Certainly not for Advance Purchase on Day travellers

2) Better internal seating layout. More tables as standard for a less "hemmed in" atmostphere, and ability to work on a laptop (Voyager airline seats are abysmsl for this)

3) Second the family coach/compartment idea. Or rhe 'noisy coach'. De Rigeur on ICEs to make a long trip less monotonous for kids. More an alternative to the car than flying.

4) On the family theme, perhaps "Family Tickets" where kids go at a pittance price when there are two fare-paying adults. XC just doesn't compete on price with driving.

 

[Iskra]

It definitely needs the 'TP treatment' in terms of new, purpose built rolling stock. But realistically, I don't think we're going to get it. The 222's arriving should still allow more longer trains and double sets, but by that point the entire fleet will need an interior refurb all at once. That's the ideal opportunity to do any necessary reforming of sets and would be the ideal time to introduce an additional class of travel.

I agree that 3 classes could help solve XC's problems. Traditional First Class; a middling reservation-only 'Comfort Class' where all seats are at tables for long distance passenger and finally; Standard Class with higher density carriages similar to now for the commuter flows that XC ends up dealing with. Wi-Fi, at-seat microwave meals and a bar/cafe service should please everyone. Based on a 7 car formation I'd suggest; 1 coach of first class, 2 coaches of comfort class, 4 coach standard class, this format could be altered slightly for any 8/9/10 car formations that may exist in the future as the need arises. This should please more passengers, provide more capacity and allow more appropriate pricing depending on time of day/week/year aimed at each class of travel.

 

[class26]

i know the OP said he wasn`t thinking about speeding things up but when the 222`s arrive (and I haven`t done the sums) would it be possible or viable to keep a few 4 car Voyagers to do say some Newcastle to Bristol services with limited stops (Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Derby, B`ham, Cheltenham, Bristol) to especially appeal to the business traveller ?
Probably paths are not there but if so, would it be a viable idea ?

 

[Iskra]

i know the OP said he wasn`t thinking about speeding things up but when the 222`s arrive (and I haven`t done the sums) would it be possible or viable to keep a few 4 car Voyagers to do say some Newcastle to Bristol services with limited stops (Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Derby, B`ham, Cheltenham, Bristol) to especially appeal to the business traveller ?
Probably paths are not there but if so, would it be a viable idea ?

The problem is that people would all pile on to the fastest trains, swamping them. And then there's a lot of issues with paths too.

 

[Ianno87]

i know the OP said he wasn`t thinking about speeding things up but when the 222`s arrive (and I haven`t done the sums) would it be possible or viable to keep a few 4 car Voyagers to do say some Newcastle to Bristol services with limited stops (Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Derby, B`ham, Cheltenham, Bristol) to especially appeal to the business traveller ?
Probably paths are not there but if so, would it be a viable idea ?

Extra units would be far better deployed on strengthening the busiest services.

 

[Ianno87]

Doing the maths, the 222 fleet can in theory be reformed as 27 x 5 car sets.

There would be 8 intermediate cars left over from the 7 car sets that could, making the key assumption they can be made compatible, then lengthen 8 (out if 34) Class 220s from 4 to 5 cars.

Making XC's fleet:
-27 x 5 car 222s
-28 x 5 Car 220s/221s
-30x 4 Car Class 220s/221s

A net fleet increase from 58 to 85 train sets.

Add the 20 Avanti sets (to get 105 total) and that's near double the fleet size. Enough to make Double Voyager operation near standard.

 

[edwin_m]

1a) Counted Place reservations only for solo travellers (excluding disabled and senior railcard holders). Certainly not for Advance Purchase on Day travellers

To do that requires control of the total number of people on the train, which can't be done without banning walk-ups. I don't think that's the way to go to attract business travelers, and if there are longer trains with more seats then it's probably not necessary in any case.

Although I normally travel solo I have to book a table to use a laptop. This wouldn't be necessary if there was enough legroom and a properly designed table on the face-to-back seats - Eurostar being the only one I've found that's good enough. Do something like that and they could perhaps tweak the system to forbid reservations in 4-seat table bays for solo travelers unless the other three were already taken.

i know the OP said he wasn`t thinking about speeding things up but when the 222`s arrive (and I haven`t done the sums) would it be possible or viable to keep a few 4 car Voyagers to do say some Newcastle to Bristol services with limited stops (Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Derby, B`ham, Cheltenham, Bristol) to especially appeal to the business traveller ?
Probably paths are not there but if so, would it be a viable idea ?

The fastest trains on those sections today only stop at these stations plus Durham, Darlington and Doncaster, so this would probably only save 10min or so which wouldn't make much of a dent in the sorts of journey where there are flights available as an alternative. Much more saving than that and it would be catching up with the "slower" XC in front!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had another thought - maybe some 3+1 seating in Standard/"middle class" - groups might like the 3, singles would like the 1 and it would actually mean you could get to 3 rather than 2 across before it felt busy?

 

[Huntergreed]

XC for me has always seemed to me to be like an intercity route with a local service onboard. It serves the longest train journeys in the country but the service I don’t feel is particularly adequate. I think the removal of the shop didn’t help, meals in first class and a wider food offering in standard class would certainly make it more appealing. This combined with a complete refurbishment as in my opinion the voyagers are quite tacky and cheap inside, much more so than the AWC ones, which feel more appropriate for intercity travel, despite being practically identical.

 

[D365]

I see that there is an option for CrossCountry to take on the Class 222s, but has it been confirmed that this option will be taken up?

In a statement, DfT said it and XC were working to finalise plans for more seats through the introduction of longer trains on routes from Scotland, the North East and Manchester to the South Coast and South West. These would run on Mondays-Thursdays from December 2020.

It is understood that one option proposed was for EMR’s 27 Class 222s to move to XC, but these will not be available until the end of 2022.

 

[Ianno87]

XC for me has always seemed to me to be like an intercity route with a local service onboard. It serves the longest train journeys in the country but the service I don’t feel is particularly adequate. I think the removal of the shop didn’t help, meals in first class and a wider food offering in standard class would certainly make it more appealing. This combined with a complete refurbishment as in my opinion the voyagers are quite tacky and cheap inside, much more so than the AWC ones, which feel more appropriate for intercity travel, despite being practically identical.

Basic problem with XC is that it too adequately serves its core market of short/medium distance flows. Which means it doesn't entice/pick up the marginal revenue from longer distance flows in the process.

 

[Jozhua]

Lol, this is definitely a speculative idea, thinking Cross Country will ever be improved.

The key issue, it doesn't go near London, touch London, or really interact with Londoners.

It is also usually used infrequently by most and isn't as ubiquitous in the areas it runs like Northern or Transpennine is, so dissatisfaction is spread throughout the South West, Midlands, North East/West & Scotland. Some routes do terminate in the South East, such as Southampton, but note these are not in London.

 

[Jozhua]

Basic problem with XC is that it too adequately serves its core market of short/medium distance flows. Which means it doesn't entice/pick up the marginal revenue from longer distance flows in the process.

A lot of routes are exclusively served by these "intercity" class of express services, with little way to get between any of these places on a local or regional type service. Derby to Chesterfield/Sheffield comes to mind as a route run exclusively by long distance services, whilst being very much a regional distance trip. Going the other way, towards Birmingham is also run by a lot of longer distance trains.

Manchester to Birmingham is even more ridiculous, the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities linked by two 4/5 carriage trains an hour and it shows!

So I actually have friends in uni who live on the south coast and flying is much faster and more comfortable. Both ways of travelling are quite expensive and switch positions on price, sometimes flights can be considerably cheaper. I've noticed that they also seem to drive/get lifts up and down more than perhaps people living in other areas.

 

[MarkyT]

Train length is the most obvious potential improvement to reduce overcrowding, and that shouldn't increase crewing costs significantly, so greater capacity trains might possibly allow some small reduction in prices to encourage demand while still improving total income. The blanket off-peak 9:30 rule is crude for very long distance travel and particularly annoying combined with the lack of reasonable semi-flexible off-peak single availability. That tends to put me off making such journeys full stop, as I have no car and will not fly on principle on a domestic land route if paying for myself. Frequency is already good on the core network clearly, though might be increased a bit at the extremities, by extending the Manchester - Bristols to Exeter for example as previously planned (preferably with a few more extended to Paignton if stock allowed it, but that's just for my own selfish personal benefit!).

 

[Senex]

The problem is that people would all pile on to the fastest trains, swamping them. And then there's a lot of issues with paths too.

Which rather suggests there is a demand for speed between principal centres.

 

[markymark2000]

Journey time and fare difference. That is what it all comes down to. Flights have a really low flight time and their fares are very low.

Bristol to Newcastle is quite a good route. 20,000 people each way. 1 hour flight time (around £20), 5 hour train journey (around £85 for an advance fare). Which do you choose? Bristol to Edinburgh is another. 40,000 people each way. 75 minute flight time (around £20-£50), 5.5-6.5 hour train journey (Around £100 advance single). These are just 2 examples. There are many more out there. Until our trains are sped up quite a lot, domestic flights will generally prosper.


I'm not sure how many people you think travel from Birmingham to Southampton but according to the CAA data (table 12.3), it's less than 300 per year. More people apparently travel between Manchester Airport and Liverpool JLA.

 

[Ianno87]

Journey time and fare difference. That is what it all comes down to. Flights have a really low flight time and their fares are very low.

Bristol to Newcastle is quite a good route. 20,000 people each way. 1 hour flight time (around £20), 5 hour train journey (around £85 for an advance fare). Which do you choose? Bristol to Edinburgh is another. 40,000 people each way. 75 minute flight time (around £20-£50), 5.5-6.5 hour train journey (Around £100 advance single). These are just 2 examples. There are many more out there. Until our trains are sped up quite a lot, domestic flights will generally prosper.


I'm not sure how many people you think travel from Birmingham to Southampton but according to the CAA data (table 12.3), it's less than 300 per year. More people apparently travel between Manchester Airport and Liverpool JLA.

I do think fares are probably the bigger barrier to most. Sadly most people will think about the train, put it in National Rail enquiries, see a price into the multiple-hundreds, and consequently be put off trains permanently.

I'm just looking at the DB ticket I purchased from Zurich to Brussels via Frankfurt for 2 adults 1 child for €83....


Another thing that would help would be a booking horizon beyond 12 weeks. How many people would 'risk' not getting a decent train fare when there's a bargain flight being sold there and then?

 

[class26]

Journey time and fare difference. That is what it all comes down to. Flights have a really low flight time and their fares are very low.

Bristol to Newcastle is quite a good route. 20,000 people each way. 1 hour flight time (around £20), 5 hour train journey (around £85 for an advance fare). Which do you choose? Bristol to Edinburgh is another. 40,000 people each way. 75 minute flight time (around £20-£50), 5.5-6.5 hour train journey (Around £100 advance single). These are just 2 examples. There are many more out there. Until our trains are sped up quite a lot, domestic flights will generally prosper.


I'm not sure how many people you think travel from Birmingham to Southampton but according to the CAA data (table 12.3), it's less than 300 per year. More people apparently travel between Manchester Airport and Liverpool JLA.

There is no air service between B`ham and Southampton, hence low numbers !

 

[yorksrob]

Fares are definitely the big barrier, along with capacity. Solve those, and you have a considerable improvement.

 

[Ianno87]

Fares are definitely the big barrier, along with capacity. Solve those, and you have a considerable improvement.

The lack of capacity is the reason that fares are high! Fares manage demand but also get a good yield per passenger.

This strategy (like it or not) has turned XC into a premium-paying franchise since 2007. If capacity were to be added to make cheap fare offerings more feasible, it would probably (at least in the short term) push it into a net subsidy franchise. But if Gov't is serious abut being seen to be cutting into domestic air travel or making rail a serious alternative to the car, then it's a choice that could be made.

 

[yorksrob]

The lack of capacity is the reason that fares are high! Fares manage demand but also get a good yield per passenger.

This strategy (like it or not) has turned XC into a premium-paying franchise since 2007. If capacity were to be added to make cheap fare offerings more feasible, it would probably (at least in the short term) push it into a net subsidy franchise. But if Gov't is serious abut being seen to be cutting into domestic air travel or making rail a serious alternative to the car, then it's a choice that could be made.

Indeed. The climate emergency hasn't gone away, afterall.

 

[Iskra]

The lack of capacity is the reason that fares are high! Fares manage demand but also get a good yield per passenger.

This strategy (like it or not) has turned XC into a premium-paying franchise since 2007. If capacity were to be added to make cheap fare offerings more feasible, it would probably (at least in the short term) push it into a net subsidy franchise. But if Gov't is serious abut being seen to be cutting into domestic air travel or making rail a serious alternative to the car, then it's a choice that could be made.

Of course, investment now could lead to bigger premiums in the future...

 

[Ianno87]

Of course, investment now could lead to bigger premiums in the future...

Completely correct *but* very hard to accurately predict when coming up with a business case the you need to put defensible benefit numbers against.

When there is a "step change" in capacity or frequency the exact passenger demand reaction is generally incredibly hard to accurately predict when this is what you price the £££ justification against.

 

[hexagon789]

So this came up on the COVID thread but I thought it merited its own (and it's wider than COVID).

Could XC be improved so it made internal flights from e.g. Southampton and Birmingham unattractive, rather than just having the feel of what a Megabus would be like if they allowed standing?

I'm not so much thinking speeding it up, that's probably not viable. But could other measures work, to make the journey more useful (for work) or more pleasant to make it feel part of the holiday (for leisure)? For example the following?

• A Standard class layout better suited to working on a laptop, more similar to that in the Voyager hybrid "Coach D" or the Class 397, i.e. more tables and what airline seats there are at a good pitch to make using a laptop on your knee for work viable?
• Perhaps make First Class more affordable as an alternative?
• Or even a third "business class" with 2+2 seating but designed with premium features to encourage working on board, e.g. free "premium" wifi with a large data allowance, compulsory reservations, "proper" tables even in airline seats, sockets, free tea/coffee? BR did something a bit like this with the HST BSO turned round backwards to separate it from the rest of the train and appropriately called it "Voyager".
• For families, how about an SBB style "family coach" with a play area and a layout more suitable for families? I'm reminded of the XC "game train", a wooden panelled Mk2 set with board games printed on the tables.
• A standing bar area for those wanting a drink? Needn't take up much more room than the shop.
• At-seat service of decent microwaveable meals (I'm thinking chillies, curries and the likes - see the DB Bistro menu) served on proper crockery?

I'm sort of thinking something looking a bit like DB ICE, I suppose. Which given that Germany is polycentric, I suppose is a "quality" version of what XC is?

Thoughts?

To be able to provide those things such as a business class or a family coach, you'd need to make the trains longer. That on its own would make XC services more attractive!

 

[Aictos]

Manchester to Birmingham is even more ridiculous, the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities linked by two 4/5 carriage trains an hour and it shows!

Manchester as a City is half the size of Birmingham so cannot be classed as the 2nd biggest city as that honour goes to Birmingham.

And if 4 car Class 350s are acceptable for Birmingham to Liverpool then they're fine for Birmingham to Manchester although obviously both destinations from Birmingham should be 8 car EMUs minimum. Maybe even operated by London North Western.

I see that there is an option for CrossCountry to take on the Class 222s, but has it been confirmed that this option will be taken up?

I don't know but the elephant in the room is the ex Avanti Class 22Xs as Cross Country already operate the fleet then surely it might make sense for both Class 220s and Class 221s to be operated by XC?

Equally if the Class 222s transferred over, what routes would they be used on? A general pool to use on any Class 22X operated service or specific services?

If XC did managed to acquire extra rolling stock, could we see Cardiff to Nottingham be operated by Class 22Xs and extended to Sheffield, Lincoln etc freeing up Class 170s to operate on Birmingham to Peterborough as 4/5 cars every half hour?

 

[Ianno87]

To be able to provide those things such as a business class or a family coach, you'd need to make the trains longer. That on its own would make XC services more attractive!

10-coach Voyagers almost always seem to be *too much* capacity when they are used. Or the space is not effectively used (i.e. all the reservations bunched in 3 or 4 busy coaches....or the coaches that stop near the stairs at New Street are busy...but the rest of the train lighly loaded)

Definitely scope to make some alternative use of otherwise unproductive space.

 

[hexagon789]

10-coach Voyagers almost always seem to be *too much* capacity when they are used. Or the space is not effectively used (i.e. all the reservations bunched in 3 or 4 busy coaches....or the coaches that stop near the stairs at New Street are busy...but the rest of the train lighly loaded)

Definitely scope to make some alternative use of otherwise unproductive space.

Well if you put in a family coach or business class that's going to eat up the already poor standard class capacity, so I'd suggest at least nine-car trains, certainly I've never been on a quiet XC train at anytime of the day - all been Voyagers/Super Voyagers.

 

[Ianno87]

Well if you put in a family coach or business class that's going to eat up the already poor standard class capacity, so I'd suggest at least nine-car trains, certainly I've never been on a quiet XC train at anytime of the day - all been Voyagers/Super Voyagers.

Well, yes, would only be feasible with operation of 9/10 car trains as standard (so basically if XC became custodian of basically the entire 220/221/222 fleet and every standard hour service run as a double set)