Which company would you think will takeover the Liverpool-Nottingham Section of EMR Regional's Liverpool-Manchester-Nottingham-Norwich Route?

[Domh245]

The current Nottingham-Liverpool service is essentially northern connect levels of service, with an hourly service, reservations, all standard class - the only 'upgrade' over northern connect is the catering trolley. I certainly feel that it's more like (and more deserving of) NC+ than TPE-, the only real differences to TPE being the quality of the stock and the lack of first class.

 

[Purple Orange]

can you imagine northern running Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes?

That would be horrendous.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That would be horrendous.

Exactly.

 

[43096]

Precisely the point I've made a few times in this thread that's been ignored...

It’s more efficient in terms of diagramming, maintenance cover, crew training etc to have a smaller, specialised fleet like the 185s with one operator.

 

[Purple Orange]

The current Nottingham-Liverpool service is essentially northern connect levels of service, with an hourly service, reservations, all standard class - the only 'upgrade' over northern connect is the catering trolley. I certainly feel that it's more like (and more deserving of) NC+ than TPE-, the only real differences to TPE being the quality of the stock and the lack of first class.

I feel like that is settling for a sub-optimal service. It’s clearly a route that should have intercity standard services and why should it be any less?

 

[Aictos]

It’s more efficient in terms of diagramming, maintenance cover, crew training etc to have a smaller, specialised fleet like the 185s with one operator.

Nothing stopping the fleet being subleased though!

 

[Domh245]

It’s clearly a route that should have intercity standard services and why should it be any less?

Does it though? I fail to see why it should have the sort of service you'd expect on London-Sheffield or Manchester-Scotland? All standard class, reservable seats, and a trolley service is entirely adequate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it though? I fail to see why it should have the sort of service you'd expect on London-Sheffield or Manchester-Scotland? All standard class, reservable seats, and a trolley service is entirely adequate.

In any case other than 1st (which isn't used by most people despite this Forum having rather an affinity with it at times) the EMR 158s are easily as nice as 185s - indeed, the former have the "next model up" from Grammer's fine range of seating, the IC3000 instead of the Desiro E3000!

If you wish to purchase any such seating go to www.grammer.co.uk (well, I might as well make it read like an advert )

 

[43096]

Nothing stopping the fleet being subleased though!

So another contract to manage and a different fleet to train crews on. Or are you proposing TPE crews always work them? The service type is also a better fit with TPE than Northern. TPE is the “Regional Express” operator, why muddy it giving it to Northern?

 

[Purple Orange]

Does it though? I fail to see why it should have the sort of service you'd expect on London-Sheffield or Manchester-Scotland? All standard class, reservable seats, and a trolley service is entirely adequate.

My point is it should be the same quality as TPE which has morphed in to a intercity standard service, as opposed to the same quality as Northern. For the record, I’d get shot of 1st class across the board.

 

[Fokx]

I’m bias here but TPE would be the better operator compared to Northern.

As well as having a first class offering, TPE comes with the added benefit of WiFi, charging points and catering by RG, and Exstream which is something that Northern fail to offer, giving a better experience for the regular and leisure passengers.

TPE also already have depots at Liverpool, Piccadilly and Sheffield to allow for crew changes.

 

[Aictos]

So another contract to manage and a different fleet to train crews on. Or are you proposing TPE crews always work them? The service type is also a better fit with TPE than Northern. TPE is the “Regional Express” operator, why muddy it giving it to Northern?

Nottingham to Leeds is a Regional Express service or should be, equally York to Blackpool should be but they're not so what's the difference with Nottingham to Leeds?

And have you not heard of Northern Connect?

 

[37424]

I've heard suggestion that it might not be Class 185s, but rather the Mk5a LHCS might be used on it, with double 185s swapping in on TPE because those services are a bit busier. That would be a considerable upgrade.

Well I mean there seem to have been various suggestions floating around from people supposidly close to things, which suggested both bids would be based on new stock with MK5's being used by taking them off the Redcar route, with presumably 2x185 taking over that route, the bid for Northern would presumably be based on additional 195's, although I suppose its conceivable that Northern could have produced a bid based on the spare 185's I dont think Northern's bid will be based 158's as it offers no improvement to what already exists.

The only bid that seems to really make sense to me is the TPE bid, and if they opted to use 2x185 instead of Loco Hauled given the low relative seating of 185's given the 1st class provision I think its very unlikely that would provisioned to run single 185 they would have to be pairs.

Of course the Northern bid could be lower, although would it be even valid now its changed to OLR. Covid of course could well change things, and do the Dft think it should be more of an Intercity style operation (Tpe) or a Northern Connect style operation.

 

[Domh245]

My point is it should be the same quality as TPE which has morphed in to a intercity standard service, as opposed to the same quality as Northern. For the record, I’d get shot of 1st class across the board.

TPE minus the first class is in effect just northern connect with posher specced trains (in terms of passenger 'experience'). It seems to me like TPE doesn't really know what it is - some of its trains are regional express (with first class) but then you have the 'proper' IC services on the WCML and ECML which probably do merit 1st. If northern connect wasn't a thing then I'd agree it's a sure fit for TPE, but it does exist and is probably better at being TPE than TPE is on the 'secondary' routes

 

[37424]

TPE minus the first class is in effect just northern connect with posher specced trains (in terms of passenger 'experience'). It seems to me like TPE doesn't really know what it is - some of its trains are regional express (with first class) but then you have the 'proper' IC services on the WCML and ECML which probably do merit 1st. If northern connect wasn't a thing then I'd agree it's a sure fit for TPE, but it does exist and is probably better at being TPE than TPE is on the 'secondary' routes

Well Northern Connect doesn't really exist at present it was more of an Arriva thing and of course Arriva North doesn't exist now, and while most of the Services envisaged by Northern Connect are running whether it will be fully implemented now remains to be seen.

Muddled thinking on what TPE is arises to some degree from the recent franchise change which pushes it from Regional Express to more an Inter City operation and I would say Nottingham-Liverpool is suitable for upgrade into something a bit more Intercity.

 

[Domh245]

Well Northern Connect doesn't really exist at present it was more of an Arriva thing and of course Arriva North doesn't exist now, and while most of the Services envisaged by Northern Connect are running whether it will be fully implemented now remains to be seen.

Arriva weren't implementing Northern Connect for a laugh, it was a franchise requirement set out by the DfT. If post-crisis things aren't fundamentally changed, I'd expect to see it fully implemented (or at least, properly finished, most of it already seems to be in place)

 

[43096]

And have you not heard of Northern Connect?

I’ve heard of it. But that is all as it doesn’t actually exist.

 

[37424]

Arriva weren't implementing Northern Connect for a laugh, it was a franchise requirement set out by the DfT. If post-crisis things aren't fundamentally changed, I'd expect to see it fully implemented (or at least, properly finished, most of it already seems to be in place)

Was it? I think there was a requirement for something along the lines of Northern Connect for the former TPE services in the North West which Northern tuck over but the rest of it was Arriva.

I don't doubt the current services and trains are likely to continue in some form but whether they will be fully implemented as the Northern Connect brand along with seat reservation etc remains to be seen.

 

[Ianno87]

The service experienced by a passenger. The wider travelling public don’t need to care about train crew or stabling availability, which granted are operational constraints, but they should be sought to be overcome to deliver the best possible public service.

For which having an operation better aligned to train crew depots is a key consideration. Not which colour a train is painted.

"Best possible service" always comes with a price tag attached. It's lessened if you figure out where it has the naturally better fit to start of with.

 

[Domh245]

Was it? I think there was a requirement for something along the lines of Northern Connect for the former TPE services in the North West which Northern tuck over but the rest of it was Arriva.

I don't doubt the current services and trains are likely to continue in some form but whether they will be fully implemented as the Northern Connect brand along with seat reservation etc remains to be seen.

The services are all listed in the franchise agreement (copy as of July 2019), and indeed in the ITT there is a requirement for bidders to propose "Northern Regional Services" that "will receive a differentiated service offer (as may be described in other Sub-Plans) that offers a higher quality passenger experience compared to that which is typically provided in respect of other Franchise services" including the ex-TPE services. Which services these were and the exact offering that was planned was left to bidders, but it's clear that DfT wanted some 'premium' operations, and set out a few minimum expectations of it. Interestingly there is even a reference to catering, which really would leave the fake wood finishes and first class as the only real difference between Northern Connect and a 185!

As for whether the services will be fully implemented, the brand itself may disappear but looking forward in RTT to some 'northern connect' services, they've all got the option of seat reservations, make of that what you will.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actual seat reservations or more likely counted places for Advances? The "reservations available" flag has got in a mess over that, the diamond now really just means "you might get an Advance".

 

[Jamesrob637]

Presumably run as 6 car trains, should the 185s be used?

Might be no need at first! But certainly long-term yes.

 

[Bevan Price]

Well I mean there seem to have been various suggestions floating around from people supposidly close to things, which suggested both bids would be based on new stock with MK5's being used by taking them off the Redcar route, with presumably 2x185 taking over that route, the bid for Northern would presumably be based on additional 195's, although I suppose its conceivable that Northern could have produced a bid based on the spare 185's I dont think Northern's bid will be based 158's as it offers no improvement to what already exists.

The only bid that seems to really make sense to me is the TPE bid, and if they opted to use 2x185 instead of Loco Hauled given the low relative seating of 185's given the 1st class provision I think its very unlikely that would provisioned to run single 185 they would have to be pairs.

Of course the Northern bid could be lower, although would it be even valid now its changed to OLR. Covid of course could well change things, and do the Dft think it should be more of an Intercity style operation (Tpe) or a Northern Connect style operation.

But what would be the cost per year of operating with 2x185 instead of 2x158. For a start, you have 2 extra "engines" to feed with fuel, to carry few - if any - extra passengers.

 

[Bevan Price]

And to add to my previous comment - can all the stations served between Liverpool & Nottingham cater for 2x185 formations ? Even where selective door operation is feasible, the absence of gangways between pairs of 185s will create "difficulies", with some passengers almost inevitably finding themselves in the "wrong half" of the train.

 

[Fokx]

But what would be the cost per year of operating with 2x185 instead of 2x158. For a start, you have 2 extra "engines" to feed with fuel, to carry few - if any - extra passengers.

185’s can comfortably run on a single engine per unit so there may actually be a fuel saving

 

[37057]

185’s can comfortably run on a single engine per unit so there may actually be a fuel saving

Not comfortably, prolonged use of single engine working would cause a negative impact on reliability, especially during summer months. Brake pad usage would go up too because the lack of hydrodynamic braking. HVACs don't work to their full potential in this state either. They're normally brought back to depot when they've lost two of their three lives... it's best avoided!

The units automatically go into ECO along parts of this route already at certain GPS coordinates. That shuts an engine down per unit. I'm sure if it's feasible they (TOC) would pay for the software update to add extra locations to support this.

They're really slow on one engine too. (On depot) Once moved a six-car set on one engine without any struggle but getting a three-car set from off the wheel lathe road (slight gradient) on wet rail is a nightmare.

 

[37424]

But what would be the cost per year of operating with 2x185 instead of 2x158. For a start, you have 2 extra "engines" to feed with fuel, to carry few - if any - extra passengers.

Well the 158's are clapped out even though Northern will no doubt be stuck with them for some time, I'm sure the Dft would see 185's as a significant upgrade, fairly new trains with recent refurb and 1st class and as a pair do offer a significant seat increase over 2x158, it also finds a home for redundant 185's, but as I said the speculation is that the Loco Hauled sets were offered. As for Northern using 185's well was just idle speculation and it would probably be better if the 185's remained with one operator, I think extra 195's were more likely in Northern's proposal

An upgrade of Train quality usually comes at extra cost, I'm sure all those cascaded Sprinters and 195's for Northern are somewhat more expensive to operate than a Pacer.

 

[37057]

It’s more efficient in terms of diagramming, maintenance cover, crew training etc to have a smaller, specialised fleet like the 185s with one operator.

Agreed. From the view of getting them off depot every morning, one operator is a no brainer.

Imagine being left with a spare unit, prepped and ready to go, then both operators ring up asking for it. Or... You now have two spares sat each day, one for each operator and both not earning anyone money but costing you instead.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Transpennine Express by using class 802 Nova 1s, which will run under electric from Liverpool to Manchester then diesel for the rest of the journey.

 

[Fokx]

Transpennine Express by using class 802 Nova 1s, which will run under electric from Liverpool to Manchester then diesel for the rest of the journey.

The Cheshire lines route via Warrington is not electrified, only the Chat Moss via Huyton