Extending tickets beyond journey to save money

[mikeg]

I seem to remember being told that it is actually invalid to alight earlier than the station stop on your ticket. Is this true? Does this not apply if there are changes involved? For example, Thirsk to Northampton is cheaper than Thirsk to Milton Keynes, yet one of the changes for Northampton is Milton Keynes Central if going via Not London. I'm assuming therefore it's perfectly allowed for me to buy a Thirsk to Northampton via not London ticket to go to Milton Keynes.
Also, at peak times it often saves money to extend the ticket to get a more lenient restriction code - For example York to Northampton is not valid before 0930, Thirsk to Northampton SVR via not London is unrestricted. What would happen imagining there were ticket checks walking into York station if I walked in with one of the latter tickets , or if I tried to buy a Thirsk to Northampton SVR at peak times at the ticket office in York? If the ticket is 100% valid then would the staff be techincally be supposed to suggest this, as I believe they're meant to suggest the cheapest valid ticket according to ATOC rules?

Incidentally I do this quite often on the Thirsk to Thornaby, as I get a ticket from Thirsk to Dinsdale (fare flow calculated via Darlington = cheaper, but via Thornaby is a valid route)

 

[northwichcat]

On most tickets you are permitted to break your journey. On Advances it's never permitted and on Off-Peak Returns (old Savers) there may be restrictions on what you can do in the morning and evening peak, particularity for intercity routes and tickets for via London.

 

[John @ home]

I seem to remember being told that it is actually invalid to alight earlier than the station stop on your ticket. Is this true?

If by alight earlier you mean end your journey before reaching the destination printed on the ticket, it depends on the ticket type. For Anytime tickets, it's always allowed. For Advance tickets, it's not allowed. For Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets, it depends on the Restriction Code for the particular journey.

Does this not apply if there are changes involved?

I'm not aware of any instances where the rules on ending journey early are different if using a through train.

For example, Thirsk to Northampton is cheaper than Thirsk to Milton Keynes, yet one of the changes for Northampton is Milton Keynes Central if going via Not London. I'm assuming therefore it's perfectly allowed for me to buy a Thirsk to Northampton via not London ticket to go to Milton Keynes.

It depends on both the ticket type - see above - and the operation of the National Routeing Guide. Thirsk - Northampton via Milton Keynes is not a mapped route in the Guide, but there are two relevant easements:

Easements
30. Journeys from Northampton to Crewe or Stoke on Trent or to stations north of Crewe or Stoke on Trent made on tickets routed Any Permitted may go via Milton Keynes. This easement applies in both directions.

32. Journeys from Northampton to Rugby and beyond may go via Milton Keynes on Sundays only. This easement applies in both directions.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/easements.pdf

A Thirsk - Northampton ticket is not routed Any Permitted, as you say it's routed Not London. The East Coast booking engine interprets this strictly and allows Thirsk - Northampton via Milton Keynes for travel today (Sunday) but not tomorrow. Other online booking engines use different software and may be more lenient.

My view on this point is therefore that using a Thirsk - Northampton route Not London ticket for a Thirsk - Milton Keynes journey is valid if the ticket type permits break of journey and travel is on a Sunday.

Also, at peak times it often saves money to extend the ticket to get a more lenient restriction code

Agreed.

For example York to Northampton is not valid before 0930, Thirsk to Northampton SVR via not London is unrestricted. What would happen imagining there were ticket checks walking into York station if I walked in with one of the latter tickets

Your ticket would be perfectly valid.

or if I tried to buy a Thirsk to Northampton SVR at peak times at the ticket office in York?

It is a condition of the train companies' franchise that they operate impartial retailing. The rules for this are complex and are not all in the public domain. Broadly, they require the train companies to sell the precise ticket requested by the customer unless the outlet is one of a minority allowed to be dedicated to selling that companies' products only.

If the ticket is 100% valid then would the staff be techincally be supposed to suggest this, as I believe they're meant to suggest the cheapest valid ticket according to ATOC rules?

Impartial outlets are meant to suggest the cheapest valid ticket for the proposed time of travel for the journey between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket. They are not required to suggest other, cheaper tickets such as Thirsk - Northampton instead of Thirsk - Milton Keynes. Not are they required to suggest combinations of tickets which cover the whole journey but have a lower total fare.

 

[mikeg]

Thanks for your answers!

 

[yorkie]

No problem I think your best bet is to ask on a case-by-case basis, unless the station you are getting off at is clearly on a permitted route to the destination on the ticket and it's either an Anytime or the return portion of an Off Peak ticket, in which case it is permitted.

In the case of Northampton via MKC, it's valid today! However whether that extended validity to 'go via' MKC actually allows you to exit the station is perhaps a debatable issue...

 

[b0b]

.I'm not aware of any instances where the rules on ending journey early are different if using a through train.It depends on both the ticket type - see above - and the operation of the National Routeing Guide.

You might want to join us in the Clapham Junction - London Terminals thread

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is a condition of the train companies' franchise that they operate impartial retailing. The rules for this are complex and are not all in the public domain. Broadly, they require the train companies to sell the precise ticket requested by the customer unless the outlet is one of a minority allowed to be dedicated to selling that companies' products only.
. . . .
They are not required to suggest other, cheaper tickets such as Thirsk - Northampton instead of Thirsk - Milton Keynes. Not are they required to suggest combinations of tickets which cover the whole journey but have a lower total fare.

I agree.
But the "minority" you refer to can be a LARGE minority, can't it?
Some major stations' ticket selling facilities can have up to about 20 "windows" which may be operating during busy periods. So the permitted number of "partial" (i.e. not "impartial") windows serving customers in a single, common queue, could be nine; and it would be quite unpredictable which "window" was going to become available for any passenger progressing along the common queue.
Thus randomising the "impartiality" across travellers.

In fact, a devious operator (and I'm only speculating here), could be quite creative and segregate the "windows" into categories (such as 'travel for today only' or 'travel with large baggage' or 'return travel only' or 'long distance only'. and thereby ensure that these windows are the impartial ones - the windows which would be selling the highest value tickets.

Or have I misunderstood the relationship between queue management and "(im-)partial" selling?

 

[Greenback]

Whenever I have seen windows labelled as 'Tickets for today' or similar, they have had seperate queuing systems.

We used to have a dedicated London Travelcard only window in Reading in 2000. It was always window 9, which had previously been an information window only and was not part of the main queuing system.

W enever had any window used for FGW products only!

 

[tony_mac]

Whenever I have seen windows labelled as 'Tickets for today' or similar, they have had seperate queuing systems.

We used to have a dedicated London Travelcard only window in Reading in 2000. It was always window 9, which had previously been an information window only and was not part of the main queuing system.

W enever had any window used for FGW products only!

According to 'Stations made easy' there is a separate queue for 'today only' windows at Reading, but I have never seen one there.

 

[button_boxer]

I seem to remember being told that it is actually invalid to alight earlier than the station stop on your ticket. Is this true?

Depends on the ticket. E.g. many SVR tickets are not valid for break of journey on the outward half (but are on the return). You need to check the individual restriction codes to be sure.