Middlesbrough to Kings Cross Direct Service Planned for 2020

[AndyCK]

Obviously COVID-19 has changed many things, but I was wondering the other day if the planned direct service from Middlesborough to Kings Cross would still go ahead at some point, even if now not during 2020. The last bit of info I can find is from 2018:

New trains 'too large' for Middlesbrough station

Existing platforms at Middlesbrough cannot accommodate new locomotives for a London service.

www.bbc.co.uk

Platforms at Middlesbrough station are not large enough to accommodate a new train service to London, the Tees Valley Mayor has warned.

Ben Houchen said the existing facilities would not fit the new Class 800 Azuma locomotives, due in 2020.

Network Rail said capacity at the station was an important issue and it was working hard to resolve problems.

A third platform has been promised as part of a £15m masterplan for the station and surrounding area.

Does anyone have any updated info please? Was any work started pre COVID-19 in order to get things ready for the original service start timescales, even if it's on hold now?

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware we are no further forward. I think it's still tied up between a mixture of Middlesbrough Council, the Tees Valley Combined Authority and Network Rail about who is paying for what and when. Network Rail, for instance, are after renewing the signalling up here as it's almost life expired but obviously if they do that then they don't want to come back later to add in extra platforms. I think there's also some argument about whether Network Rail just replace the signalling as is or also make layout changes at Middlesbrough (i.e. it possible to depart both platforms in both directions) and if so who pays for that.

But the summary position would be that the service is no further forward. I also think that it had already been delayed to May 2021 but I'm struggling to find a source for that.

 

[AndyCK]

But the summary position would be that the service is no further forward. I also think that it had already been delayed to May 2021 but I'm struggling to find a source for that.

Thanks for the info I guess it's a case of wait and see what happens!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

As far as I'm aware we are no further forward. I think it's still tied up between a mixture of Middlesbrough Council, the Tees Valley Combined Authority and Network Rail about who is paying for what and when. Network Rail, for instance, are after renewing the signalling up here as it's almost life expired but obviously if they do that then they don't want to come back later to add in extra platforms. I think there's also some argument about whether Network Rail just replace the signalling as is or also make layout changes at Middlesbrough (i.e. it possible to depart both platforms in both directions) and if so who pays for that.

But the summary position would be that the service is no further forward. I also think that it had already been delayed to May 2021 but I'm struggling to find a source for that.

yes it is i think 2021 after the upgrades are finished on the ECML.

 

[Chris NS]

Tees Valley Combined Authority seems to think 2021. As far as I can tell, it's tied into the timetable change that can happen after completion of Azuma roll out + Werrington dive=-under + Kings Uncrossed.

I don't understand what's taking Middlesbrough longer than places like Harrogate that already have their direct services - I'd have thought extending a London-York stopper would have been relatively easy - but TVCA seems to have quietly conceded 2021 rather than the original promise of 2019, so I guess there's a reason somewhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't understand what's taking Middlesbrough longer than places like Harrogate that already have their direct services - I'd have thought extending a London-York stopper would have been relatively easy - but TVCA seems to have quietly conceded 2021 rather than the original promise of 2019, so I guess there's a reason somewhere.

I believe it's mostly down to delays in the Azuma programme and delays in the power upgrades along with it being tied into the larger Azuma recast which has moved slightly to the right as well for similar reasons. Plus you can't extend the London to York stopper to provide the service earlier as those only sit in York for around thirty minutes. So it would require at least one extra unit as well as messing with crew diagrams. Remember that York to Middlesbrough and back is easily going to be around an hour and half.

 

[Helvellyn]

I believe December 2021 is when LNER has a major timetable recast planned, hence the plans to keep up to ten Mark 4 sets to augment the Azumas until additional new stock can be procured.

 

[a_c_skinner]

My recollection of Middlesbrough (I used it a reasonable amount) is one of a big station with long platforms and Quail (an old one) says 10 coaches (though I don't know what length they use for these). I'm not for one moment arguing but how come the trains won't fit? Cannot selective door opening allow it? Obviously not but how come?

 

[Chris NS]

I presume they would be running a 2x5-car Azuma as far as York, and then divide the train and run a single one as far as Middlesbrough.

There again, they did once run an inter-city service from Middlesbrough in 1990-ish. Does anyone know how long that train was?

 

[Neptune]

I presume they would be running a 2x5-car Azuma as far as York, and then divide the train and run a single one as far as Middlesbrough.

There again, they did once run an inter-city service from Middlesbrough in 1990-ish. Does anyone know how long that train was?

2+8 HST which will have had grandfather rights no doubt. I believe this service was the reason 43104 was named County of Cleveland and possibly why 43105 was named Hartlepool (was the service extended there does anyone know?). They were named in the mid 80’s so did the service run back then?

 

[FQTV]

2+8 HST which will have had grandfather rights no doubt. I believe this service was the reason 43104 was named County of Cleveland and possibly why 43105 was named Hartlepool (was the service extended there does anyone know?). They were named in the mid 80’s so did the service run back then?

Yes, The Cleveland Executive ran once a day in each direction. It commenced in the Up direction at Newcastle, via the Durham Coast through Sunderland, Hartlepool and Stockton, reversing at Middlesbrough and thence Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, York and Stevenage.

In the Down direction it also called at Newark.

2h46m from Eaglescliffe to London King's Cross in the 1980s as a datum; latterly 2h39m with Grand Central including an additional Thirsk call but omitting Stevenage and Newark.

 

[swt_passenger]

I presume they would be running a 2x5-car Azuma as far as York, and then divide the train and run a single one as far as Middlesbrough.

There again, they did once run an inter-city service from Middlesbrough in 1990-ish. Does anyone know how long that train was?

That is not what was in the much discussed track access application. There are no suggestions of portion working In the TAA, the Middlesbrough runs in addition to the other services to York, but in the hours it runs the fast Edinburgh skips York.

 

[fenman35]

2+8 HST which will have had grandfather rights no doubt. I believe this service was the reason 43104 was named County of Cleveland and possibly why 43105 was named Hartlepool (was the service extended there does anyone know?). They were named in the mid 80’s so did the service run back then?

There was a service from Middlesbro to Kings Cross in the 1980s and I travelled on it leaving at about 1630 having returned from NYMR on Wednesday 29 July 1981 the wedding day of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer

 

[pdeaves]

Is it a platform/train stepping distance issue rather than a platform length issue? A new train type could well require platform edge changes to suit.

 

[Anvil1984]

That is not what was in the much discussed track access application. There are no suggestions of portion working In the TAA, the Middlesbrough runs in addition to the other services to York, but in the hours it runs the fast Edinburgh skips York.

In which case lies the problem. A 9 car Azuma would be roughly 234 metres, Middlesbroughs platforms are 201 metres on Platform 1 and 205 on Platform 2. Depending on the service plans you could use the SDO but another problem is siding space. West Dock siding is easily accessable from platform 2 but only holds 4 coaches so is useless (couldn't even hold a 5 car Azuma), the "HST" sidings require a double reversal from platform 2 usually down to just beyond Cargo Fleet crossing, reverse, into platform 1 and reverse. Not ideal just holding it at Cargo Fleet because it blocks the single line and trains can't leave Nunthorpe. The solution would be a crossover from the down line into platform 1 but I guess this is where the ping pong for funds is.

 

[swt_passenger]

In which case lies the problem. A 9 car Azuma would be roughly 234 metres, Middlesbroughs platforms are 201 metres on Platform 1 and 205 on Platform 2. Depending on the service plans you could use the SDO but another problem is siding space. West Dock siding is easily accessable from platform 2 but only holds 4 coaches so is useless (couldn't even hold a 5 car Azuma), the "HST" sidings require a double reversal from platform 2 usually down to just beyond Cargo Fleet crossing, reverse, into platform 1 and reverse. Not ideal just holding it at Cargo Fleet because it blocks the single line and trains can't leave Nunthorpe. The solution would be a crossover from the down line into platform 1 but I guess this is where the ping pong for funds is.

Why can’t it be a single 5 car all the way though? The Middlesbrough is an extra service to the otherwise standard 6 tph out of Kings Cross, so surely it only has to manage the extra capacity required by Middlesbrough?

I‘m sure the difficulties in shunting the trains are as you say, but I think we’re going over old ground on that.

 

[Anvil1984]

Why can’t it be a single 5 car all the way though? The Middlesbrough is an extra service to the otherwise standard 6 tph out of Kings Cross, so surely it only has to manage the extra capacity required by Middlesbrough?

I'm not saying it can't be, in which case you wouldn't need SDO and the platform problem wouldn't be an issue. Turning around a unit is the bigger issue and in reality the main reason TPE now turn most of theirs at Redcar. 5 car still won't fit in West Dock and getting to HST sidings still requires a double reversal or a new crossover to the west of the station put in. I believe that services from beyond York require 25 mins turnaround time planned so leaving it in a platform is no go as Middlesbrough will have minimum 5 trains an hour each way when this comes in

 

[pdeaves]

Why can’t it be a single 5 car all the way though?

If the train calls anywhere en route, it needs to be able to accommodate a net increase in passengers at each stop. Maybe Middlesbrough-main line bit only needs five car, but what about thence to London? Does the operator envisage lots more people boarding at places other than Middlesbrough? I don't know the answer, but it will certainly be a consideration.

 

[clagmonster]

Would turning via Redcar or Saltburn be an option, albeit at the cost of much additional running?

 

[darloscott]

That would ultimately depend on how much time is allowed for the turnaround. You'd be looking at at least 30 mins to run to Redcar and back, even if empty.
Doesn't change the fact that Middlesbrough will be very congested with 10 trains an hour split over 2 platforms, mix of through and terminating now Northern are splitting the Nunthorpe's off

 

[ainsworth74]

In which case lies the problem. A 9 car Azuma would be roughly 234 metres, Middlesbroughs platforms are 201 metres on Platform 1 and 205 on Platform 2. Depending on the service plans you could use the SDO but another problem is siding space. West Dock siding is easily accessable from platform 2 but only holds 4 coaches so is useless (couldn't even hold a 5 car Azuma), the "HST" sidings require a double reversal from platform 2 usually down to just beyond Cargo Fleet crossing, reverse, into platform 1 and reverse. Not ideal just holding it at Cargo Fleet because it blocks the single line and trains can't leave Nunthorpe. The solution would be a crossover from the down line into platform 1 but I guess this is where the ping pong for funds is.

Yes I think that's why they're also talking about a third platform. You don't need to send the LNER anywhere if it can just sit in a brand new platform three for half an hour (or whatever your turn around ends up being). And, depending on how it's hooked up, offers extra flexibility the rest of the time when it's not being used by LNER. Of course the real issue is that someone, at some point, needs to tackle the fact that the layout at Middlesbrough is surprising inflexible both in terms of what platforms you can arrive in from different directions but also which directions you can depart in from the different platforms. And then on top of that the inability to access the "HST" sidings from platform 2 without having to shunt twice through the station. I personally suspect that if it had been possible for TPE to drop into them they'd have never gone anywhere near Redcar. But it become operationally convenient and was a political win so it happened.

Would turning via Redcar or Saltburn be an option, albeit at the cost of much additional running?

Maybe but it has lots of issues still. Redcar platform 2 (the only one that works for this move) is already getting quite congested now with two Northerns per hour and a TPE every hour as well so fitting in an LNER every other hour whilst not impossible I'm sure would be tough. Certainly if you also want to give a decent turnaround it gets harder. Platform lengths might also been an issue. Redcar is only around 100m long which isn't much of a 9/10-car and not even a whole 5-car! Saltburn is easier in some respects logistically but is killed dead by platform length. Both are around 150m so a 5-car fits but a 9/10-car overhangs the platform and fouls the points/signals so you'd be blocking the other platform which is needed by the Northern services.

I think the real answer to all of this is that there is a need to grasp the nettle of Middlesbrough's layout and fix it!

 

[Anvil1984]

Of course the real issue is that someone, at some point, needs to tackle the fact that the layout at Middlesbrough is surprising inflexible both in terms of what platforms you can arrive in from different directions but also which directions you can depart in from the different platforms.

I think the real answer to all of this is that there is a need to grasp the nettle of Middlesbrough's layout and fix it!

I'll be honest I'm slightly confused by the former point but agree with the latter. The only limitations are that you can't go to Saltburn off platform 1 (which to be honest isn't usually a massive issue unless a unit has sat down in the platform) and you can't get to the HST sidings from platform 2. You can run Westbound off platform 2 in service and eastbound off platform 1 if going to Nunthorpe / Whitby. You can even come in from Nunthorpe and Saltburn into platform 2.

However a crossover at the West End of the station and perhaps one more at the East to allow Saltburn services to come off 1 in emergency would be useful

 

[Darandio]

Maybe but it has lots of issues still. Redcar platform 2 (the only one that works for this move) is already getting quite congested now with two Northerns per hour and a TPE every hour as well so fitting in an LNER every other hour whilst not impossible I'm sure would be tough.

Also factor in exactly how would they would negotiate the turnaround. Is it feasible to stay in the platform (doubtful) or does it need to go into the loop and return to allow something to pass. If it's the latter they might as well close West Dyke Road. Turning TPE services there has made it more difficult using the crossing, adding in another two moves in a given hour would be a nightmare!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'll be honest I'm slightly confused by the former point but agree with the latter. The only limitations are that you can't go to Saltburn off platform 1 (which to be honest isn't usually a massive issue unless a unit has sat down in the platform) and you can't get to the HST sidings from platform 2. You can run Westbound off platform 2 in service and eastbound off platform 1 if going to Nunthorpe / Whitby. You can even come in from Nunthorpe and Saltburn into platform 2.

However a crossover at the West End of the station and perhaps one more at the East to allow Saltburn services to come off 1 in emergency would be useful

Yes, I've not managed to make myself very clear there(!) but your last paragraph there is what I was driving at. Just adding that final bit of flexibility to the layout which during day to day operations wouldn't make a massive difference but would help when something goes wrong.

Also factor in exactly how would they would negotiate the turnaround. Is it feasible to stay in the platform (doubtful) or does it need to go into the loop and return to allow something to pass. If it's the latter they might as well close West Dyke Road. Turning TPE services there has made it more difficult using the crossing, adding in another two moves in a given hour would be a nightmare!

I didn't want to get too far into local issues (for local people? ) but it absolutely crossed my mind that adding in yet another set of services (okay every other hour but still) is just going to make that situation even worse. Has anyone calculated how long the barriers are now down every hour?

 

[AndyCK]

I've come across the Station Action Plan from 2017:

https://www.middlesbrough.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Station%20Action%20Plan.pdf

The growth of rail usage and general usage of Middlesbrough Station is seen as a key opportunity to regenerate and improve the Station and its environs for the benefit of rail users (and local employees), but also generate wider regeneration benefits in the surrounding area. The masterplan proposes a vision for the site which has a re-energised station at its heart, inspiring a vibrant neighbourhood that takes its inspiration from the character of the area and is strengthened by carefully integrated new buildings and structures.

I'm assuming this is still valid and not superseded by another version - page 9 onwards is most interesting, detailing capacity issues and proposed service patterns

 

[Darandio]

I didn't want to get too far into local issues (for local people? ) but it absolutely crossed my mind that adding in yet another set of services (okay every other hour but still) is just going to make that situation even worse. Has anyone calculated how long the barriers are now down every hour?

I haven't calculated for the full hour but i've been stuck there for 14/15 minutes in one sitting as the TPE enters the loop and the gates remain closed for the XX:59 to Saltburn before allowing the TPE back into platform 2. Obviously the slow speed in and out of the loop contributes to this. Add in the other passenger services and an hour where freight is involved, it wouldn't be a stretch to say it's shut for 30 minutes.

 

[Anvil1984]

I haven't calculated for the full hour but i've been stuck there for 14/15 minutes in one sitting as the TPE enters the loop and the gates remain closed for the XX:59 to Saltburn before allowing the TPE back into platform 2. Obviously the slow speed in and out of the loop contributes to this. Add in the other passenger services and an hour where freight is involved, it wouldn't be a stretch to say it's shut for 30 minutes.

Also slightly annoying for trains coming from Saltburn as if a train is routed off Platform 2 going west over the crossover then you get at the annoying signal just before the crossing (you're already crawling round from Redcar East anyway because of the signal set up). Small fry in the scheme of things but still an irritation

 

[DarloRich]

I presume they would be running a 2x5-car Azuma as far as York, and then divide the train and run a single one as far as Middlesbrough.

There again, they did once run an inter-city service from Middlesbrough in 1990-ish. Does anyone know how long that train was?

Standard HST

Yes, The Cleveland Executive ran once a day in each direction. It commenced in the Up direction at Newcastle, via the Durham Coast through Sunderland, Hartlepool and Stockton, reversing at Middlesbrough and thence Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, York and Stevenage.

In the Down direction it also called at Newark.

2h46m from Eaglescliffe to London King's Cross in the 1980s as a datum; latterly 2h39m with Grand Central including an additional Thirsk call but omitting Stevenage and Newark.

Did it run from Newcastle - i cant recall that from my times using it!

 

[Darandio]

Did it run from Newcastle - i cant recall that from my times using it!

It did. Called at Sunderland, Hartlepool and Stockton. I need to dig out my timetables but i'm sure a down service called at Eaglescliffe for a time as well, but not the up. Or it might be the other way around.

 

[DarloRich]

It did. Called at Sunderland, Hartlepool and Stockton. I need to dig out my timetables but i'm sure a down service called at Eaglescliffe for a time as well, but not the up. Or it might be the other way around.

thanks - no memory of that! I thought they both called at Eaglescliffe (for Yarm)