COVID-19 and the lockdown effects on mental health.

[HH]

How about this then from the ONS BBC article entitel Coronavirus: Money worries in pandemic drive surge in anxiety

How about it? Of course there's an increase in anxiety. I'm surprised it's only half. If everyone suffering from anxiety committed suicide, then it would be a far, far greater problem than covid.

People are jumping to conclusions here, based on no evidence at all.

 

[yorkie]

I do think some thought needs to be given to why mental health among young people is now apparently so fragile that so many people are apparently struggling with a few weeks of lockdown...

Did you read my post? If you were a parent in that situation, what would you do? Did you see the video from Italy?

We need to get this into proportion.....

If you get things fully into proportion you will consider the bigger picture, in terms of not just about numbers but considering how long the people would have lived and the quality of that life. For example if an elderly person dies of Covid-19 this is not really comparable to a young persion in good health, with their whole live in front of them, committing suicide. It just isn't comparable at all. Also it goes beyond suicides; the quality of life for many people is at risk.

... There is risk in all area of life whether we like it or not and it's right that we consider the whole picture, and it's important that the whole picture is presented and taken into account. Mental health, employment, paying back the cheques we're cashing now, life expectancy are all imporant factors.

Indeed these are very good points; I think some people lack being able to see the bigger picture.

In Scotland Nicola Sturgeon essentially just confirmed that the Lockdown will, in Scotland at the very least, be extended for another three weeks. I was hopeful that it would be taken to weekly review but going by what she says this doesn’t sound likely at all. I must admit this is worrying me a little as people I know who have been fine so far are starting to struggle and the fact that it keeps getting pushed farther and farther back isn’t going to help with mental health in any way.

Indeed.

How about it? Of course there's an increase in anxiety. I'm surprised it's only half. If everyone suffering from anxiety committed suicide, then it would be a far, far greater problem than covid.

People are jumping to conclusions here, based on no evidence at all.

What concusions do you think people are jumping to?

 

[Steveoh]

How about it? Of course there's an increase in anxiety. I'm surprised it's only half. If everyone suffering from anxiety committed suicide, then it would be a far, far greater problem than covid.

People are jumping to conclusions here, based on no evidence at all.

Have a look at some well known national organisations that deal with mental health and suicide and look at the triggers, and compare those with the situation that millions of people find themselves in today. We may not be able to give you any figures but it wouldn't be a suprise to find an increase in suicides.

That aside it's only one part of a bigger picture.

Maybe suicides are tragically up or hopefully down. The mental health of people is still an issue and it ought to be considered, that's the wider point and it's right that it is discussed.

 

[nlogax]

Lockdown itself isn't going to form the bulk of a higher suicide rate. It'll be the knock-on effects and what potentially happens down the line.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30141-3/fulltext

COVID-19, unemployment, and suicide - Wolfram Kawohl and Carlos Nordt

The COVID-19 pandemic has led to the introduction of strong restrictive measures that are having a substantial effect on the global economy, including an increase in the unemployment rate worldwide. In a previous study, we modelled the effect of unemployment on suicide on the basis of global public data from 63 countries, and we observed that suicide risk was elevated by 20–30% when associated with unemployment during 2000–11 (including the 2008 economic crisis). We have now used this model to predict the effects of the currently expected rise in the unemployment rate on suicide rates.

 

[Esker-pades]

No, what you said in post 52 was not related to actual suicides.

How was it apocryphal?

No, it isn't. Claiming something does not make it true.

I claim that an increase in mental health problems causes a rise in suicides. If you want to dispute that mental health problems cause suicides, go ahead.

 

[HH]

Did you read my post? If you were a parent in that situation, what would you do? Did you see the video from Italy?

I did. And I'm not really sure about what conclusions you are drawing from it.

If you get things fully into proportion you will consider the bigger picture, in terms of not just about numbers but considering how long the people would have lived and the quality of that life. For example if an elderly person dies of Covid-19 this is not really comparable to a young persion in good health, with their whole live in front of them, committing suicide. It just isn't comparable at all. Also it goes beyond suicides; the quality of life for many people is at risk.

So how many elderly people should die to stop one young person committing suicide? Once you start saying some lives are more valuable than others, where do you stop?

Mind you some journalists judging by their questions, already suspect that the government deliberately threw care home residents under a bus.

What concusions do you think people are jumping to?

That suicides are increasing, as you well know.

 

[HH]

Lockdown itself isn't going to form the bulk of a higher suicide rate. It'll be the knock-on effects and what potentially happens down the line.

Yes, I agree. So that is where the effort will need to be applied.

How was it apocryphal?

I didn't say it was. There is no directly related cause and effect. This is a well-known logical fallacy.

I claim that an increase in mental health problems causes a rise in suicides. If you want to dispute that mental health problems cause suicides, go ahead.

Does a rise in dementia cause an increase in suicides? Really, you're the one making the claim - you need to back it with some evidence.

 

[Esker-pades]

I didn't say it was [apocryphal]. There is no directly related cause and effect. This is a well-known logical fallacy.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

The evidence is all apocryphal. If it were on any other subject it would be pointed out that is no basis for an informed discussion.

Does a rise in dementia cause an increase in suicides? Really, you're the one making the claim - you need to back it with some evidence.

How about it? Of course there's an increase in anxiety. I'm surprised it's only half. If everyone suffering from anxiety committed suicide, then it would be a far, far greater problem than covid.

People are jumping to conclusions here, based on no evidence at all.

I claim that an increase in mental health problems causes a rise in suicides. I've also included some specific literature on the relationship between anxiety and suicide.

References (all peer-reviewed):
Sareen et al., 2007. Sareen J., Cox B.J., Stein M.B., Afifi T.O., Fleet C., and Asmundson G.J.: Physical and mental comorbidity, disability, and suicidal behavior associated with posttraumatic stress disorder in a large community sample. Psychosomatic Medicine 2007; 69: pp. 242-248

Nepon et al., 2010. Nepon J., Belik S.L., Bolton J., and Sareen J.: The relationship between anxiety disorders and suicide attempts: findings from the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. Depression and Anxiety 2010; 27: pp. 791-798

Dwivedi Y (ed)., 2012: The Neurobiological Basis of Suicide, CRC Press/Taylor & Francis

Bostwick et al., 2000. Bostwick, J. M., & Pankratz, V. S.: Affective disorders and suicide risk: A reexamination. American Journal of Psychiatry, 157: pp. 1925–1932

The study @nlogax referred to.

etc., etc., etc....

 

[ainsworth74]

Does a rise in dementia cause an increase in suicides? Really, you're the one making the claim - you need to back it with some evidence.

Dementia? No perhaps not directly. Though it certainly can trigger a rise in self-harm. For instance dementia suffers often end up turning their thermostats down and not realising they need to turn it back up again so get dangerously cold. But there's a heck of a lot more mental health conditions out there than just dementia and I'm sure you know that. How you can trying to suggest there isn't a link between mental health and the risk of suicide is honestly beyond me.

 

[AlistairCowell]

My mental health was down in the dumps for a few weeks when UK first went into lockdown back in March. I was very worried because nobody knows what will be happening next as COVID-19 is a new virus, and I was worried about lockdown measures getting tougher (e.g. outdoor exercise ban and nobody being allowed to leave home - the Health Secretary and Housing Secretary would regret that if that happened).

I'm okay now and everyone is sure that we have passed the peak, but the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and a number of ministers of the UK Government have repeated a few times 'It's too early to lift the lockdown', suggesting that the lockdown will be extended for another three weeks. My dad did say it would be for 12 weeks (that is starting from March).

 

[nlogax]

Does a rise in dementia cause an increase in suicides? Really, you're the one making the claim - you need to back it with some evidence.

Please, let's not go down the route of denying links between MH and suicide. They are scientifically proven to exist and anyone who has done even five minutes of basic research would be left in no doubt.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032719306202

The association between mental disorders and suicide: A systematic review and meta-analysis of record linkage studies

Highlights

•There has been concern about the extent to which mental disorders contributing to suicide is over-inflated.
•Our study drew on objective evidence of the presence or absence of mental disorders in those who had died by suicide by including only studies that used linked data of mental health service use and suicide deaths.
•We found that individuals with a mental disorder had a nearly eight-fold increased risk of suicide compared with those without a mental disorder.
•Our findings suggest that the risk of suicide for people with mental disorders should not be down-played.

 

[HH]

etc., etc., etc....

The first two papers at least are talking about very specific conditions. I hope that you're not suggesting that lockdown can cause PTSD. I'm not going to bother checking the others out, based on your first two examples.

In any case, that there is a relationship is clear. My point is that doesn't mean that a general increase in anxiety levels caused by the lockdown is going to lead to an increase in suicides. If you think it does, then please quote the relevant passage from any of those studies.

 

[HH]

Please, let's not go down the route of denying links between MH and suicide.

I'll say what I said above. I'm not denying a link between MH and suicide. I'm saying that there is no proof that the lockdown, in and of itself, is leading to an increase in suicides.

 

[HH]

Dementia? No perhaps not directly. Though it certainly can trigger a rise in self-harm. For instance dementia suffers often end up turning their thermostats down and not realising they need to turn it back up again so get dangerously cold.

That's hardly suicide.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'll say what I said above. I'm not denying a link between MH and suicide. I'm saying that there is no proof that the lockdown, in and of itself, is leading to an increase in suicides.

We've established that the lockdown is causing an increase in mental health problems.

We've established that there is a link between menteal health problems and suicide.

Conclusion:
The lockdown increases the instances of suicide.

 

[nlogax]

I'll say what I said above. I'm not denying a link between MH and suicide. I'm saying that there is no proof that the lockdown, in and of itself, is leading to an increase in suicides.

It's too early to make a call either way while we're still essentially in lockdown. Time and statistics will soon let us know the true picture. My (educated) guess is that there will be an uptick of suicides which will be directly attributable to the lockdown period. I'd like to be proven wrong but I fear I won't be.

 

[HH]

We've established that the lockdown is causing an increase in mental health problems.

We've established that there is a link between menteal health problems and suicide.

Conclusion:
The lockdown increases the instances of suicide.

Actually we haven't established that the lockdown is causing an increase in mental health problems. In addition mental health problems covers a wide range of issues. Are the mental health problems (if the exist) caused by lockdown, ones that have a likelihood of increasing suicide? Further, are we sure that the lockdown isn't ameliorating other issues that cause suicides?

 

[ainsworth74]

That's hardly suicide.

I'm not sure that I said it was (though I'm sure that will be some comfort to the families of such people who end up dying or at least being hospitalised)? I was simply adding a bit of information in response to your rather dismissive attitude to mental health and suicide by trying to bring dementia into the discussion specifically.

 

[HH]

It's too early to make a call either way while we're still essentially in lockdown. Time and statistics will soon let us know the true picture. My (educated) guess is that there will be an uptick of suicides which will be directly attributable to the lockdown period. I'd like to be proven wrong but I fear I won't be.

OK that's a fair position, and you may be correct.

 

[HH]

I'm not sure that I said it was (though I'm sure that will be some comfort to the families of such people who end up dying or at least being hospitalised)? I was simply adding a bit of information in response to your rather dismissive attitude to mental health and suicide by trying to bring dementia into the discussion specifically.

My point was that dementia is a mental health problem, but it doesn't lead to suicides. Therefore talking glibly about a relationship between mental health and suicides is failing to recognise that the relationship is much more complex.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

'It would be better to die': Italy's lockdown cost

As Italy eases its restrictions, the damage caused by lockdown is being felt across Naples.

www.bbc.co.uk

I can't bring myself to watch the video, but those who dismiss the economic and mental effects of lockdowns should be forced to watch it, in my opinion.

Yes my wife is really struggling emotionally/mentally as I mentioned upthread. The light at the end of the tunnel is we live in the state of Georgia and it is the first state in the US to ease the lockdown. Outback Steakhouse was open this weekend -all tables 6 feet apart of course and all servers wearing masks - so it is a start. No air travel though so she cant fly into Manchester and see our children and Ireland is still on lockdown so she cant see the grand children. I have the advantage of work but the long hours making hand sanitizer means my wife does not see me as much which again is taking its toll on her.

I really do feel for all those who absolutely need people around them. It is devastating. Mental health care is already swamped in the NHS - The NHS in general seems to be swamped too - so I just can not see a short term solution. Italy of course is worse because its economy was already teetering. PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain in Europe will be in similar situation I would have thought.

 

[ainsworth74]

My point was that dementia is a mental health problem, but it doesn't lead to suicides. Therefore talking glibly about a relationship between mental health and suicides is failing to recognise that the relationship is much more complex.

I refer you back to the literature quoted previously or simply use Google. There's a variety of links to scholarly articles or websites of mental health/suicide prevention charities which all clearly show that there is a link between mental health and an increased risk of suicide. I struggle to understand why this is such a hard point to accept for you? Or are you simply trying to be contrary?

 

[Esker-pades]

Actually we haven't established that the lockdown is causing an increase in mental health problems. In addition mental health problems covers a wide range of issues. Are the mental health problems (if the exist) caused by lockdown, ones that have a likelihood of increasing suicide? Further, are we sure that the lockdown isn't ameliorating other issues that cause suicides?

I provided some evidence for the first point. You said that it wasn't admissable for 3 reasons: reasons 1 and 3 admitted an increased level of mental health problems and vulnerability to them, and reason 2 was "Oh, I have a lot more time on my hands. I might as well ring up a mental health hotline."

Simply, yes. Lockdown isn't going to cause somebody to suddenly get dementia. It is (and has) caused things like anxiety and depression because of (and not limited to): lack of proper social contact, loss of support networks (which you identified), uncertainty about the situation, etc.

Finally, given that my evidence was comparative (a 40%+ increase), any ameliorating issues are more than swallowed up by the additional problems.

My point was that dementia is a mental health problem, but it doesn't lead to suicides. Therefore talking glibly about a relationship between mental health and suicides is failing to recognise that the relationship is much more complex.

See above. The types of mental health problems directly cause by the lockdown are the ones that lead to suicide.

Here's a pastiche of post #73: I hope that you're not suggesting that lockdown can cause dementia.

 

[HH]

I refer you back to the literature quoted previously or simply use Google. There's a variety of links to scholarly articles or websites of mental health/suicide prevention charities which all clearly show that there is a link between mental health and an increased risk of suicide.

That's just going around in a circle, as I already said that I know there is a relationship; just not a simple one. The argument on here is of the form A->B; B->Z, ergo A->Z. As B is actually B, C, D, E, F, etc. so you cannot draw those simple conclusions.

 

[nlogax]

Yes my wife is really struggling emotionally/mentally as I mentioned upthread. The light at the end of the tunnel is we live in the state of Georgia and it is the first state in the US to ease the lockdown. Outback Steakhouse was open this weekend -all tables 6 feet apart of course and all servers wearing masks - so it is a start. No air travel though so she cant fly into Manchester and see our children and Ireland is still on lockdown so she cant see the grand children. I have the advantage of work but the long hours making hand sanitizer means my wife does not see me as much which again is taking its toll on her.

Very sorry to hear your wife is struggling at the moment, but hopefully GA's recent easing of lockdown will help - as you say it's light at the end of the tunnel, and we all need that right now, I think. Real hope helps tremendously.

Also.. you get to go out for a Bloomin' Onion! We're still waiting for Greggs..

 

[HH]

Simply, yes. Lockdown isn't going to cause somebody to suddenly get dementia. It is (and has) caused things like anxiety and depression because of (and not limited to): lack of proper social contact, loss of support networks (which you identified), uncertainty about the situation, etc.

Finally, given that my evidence was comparative (a 40%+ increase), any ameliorating issues are more than swallowed up by the additional problems.

The increase is in calls proves nothing, because regardless of your dismissing of my points, if we take my first - if they make a call rather than speaking to someone they know, then that replacement might serve them as well, or better than the original and therefore might lead to a decrease in suicides. There is no causal link between the number of calls and the number of mental health problems, especially in the current situation. No conclusions can be drawn from the increase in calls without further information.

Also do you have evidence that the mental health problems caused by lockdown, as opposed to the existence of covid-19, are anxiety and depression? I agree that it sounds likely, but to some it sounds likely that injecting disinfectant cures covid, so I prefer hard evidence.

Further, even if anxiety and depression are increasing that does not necessarily mean that suicides are increasing. While there is a link, it's not so simple as reach anxiety level X and someone suicides. That's why the only evidence that would count is an increase in the number of suicides and yet I've not heard a whisper that this is actually happening.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Very sorry to hear your wife is struggling at the moment, but hopefully GA's recent easing of lockdown will help - as you say it's light at the end of the tunnel, and we all need that right now, I think. Real hope helps tremendously.

Also.. you get to go out for a Bloomin' Onion! We're still waiting for Greggs..

Absolutely yes.

 

[Esker-pades]

The increase is in calls proves nothing, because regardless of your dismissing of my points, if we take my first - if they make a call rather than speaking to someone they know, then that replacement might serve them as well, or better than the original and therefore might lead to a decrease in suicides. There is no causal link between the number of calls and the number of mental health problems, especially in the current situation. No conclusions can be drawn from the increase in calls without further information.

An increase in calls is symptomatic of an increase in the numbers of people actually suffering, evidence provided directly in post #61.

But wait, "Of course there's an increase in anxiety. I'm surprised it's only half. If everyone suffering from anxiety committed suicide, then it would be a far, far greater problem than covid.

People are jumping to conclusions here, based on no evidence at all." (@HH - post #62).

As we later found out, people with anxiety are more likely to die by suicide.


I've been on enough circles for one day, especially with ~50% of everything I write being ignored in responses. Take care.

 

[HH]

An increase in calls is symptomatic of an increase in the numbers of people actually suffering, evidence provided directly in post #61.

No it isn't. I'm not going over this again; all it's evidence of is an increase in the number of calls.

My point about anxiety is that it's an anxious time. Half of the population is feeling anxiety. It doesn't follow that a similar proportionate increase will be feeling suicidal.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I know many people (perhaps the majority -certainly in the UK) usually have something to look forward to (poorest in society excepted) and that is their 2 week holiday to the sun, Majorca etc. With the pandamic it seems that in all likelihood even that maybe taken from them. That will undoubtedly affect mental health if there is nothing to look forward to.