Sunday Trading Laws Discussion

[Puffing Devil]

Why do shops need to open on a Sunday?

How many people work a 6 day week? Of those, who cannot get to the shops outside of their working hours, given that most supermarkets open 0600-2200 or 24/7? Other shops generally open 0900-1800.

There is an argument that the high street is struggling - that's because it's easier and cheaper in many cases to buy online. Extended hours only add to the cost base - more power and staff required for each hour open.

Who would be materially disadvantaged by taking a day off on Sundays?

 

[Iskra]

Why do shops need to open on a Sunday?

How many people work a 6 day week? Of those, who cannot get to the shops outside of their working hours, given that most supermarkets open 0600-2200 or 24/7? Other shops generally open 0900-1800.

There is an argument that the high street is struggling - that's because it's easier and cheaper in many cases to buy online. Extended hours only add to the cost base - more power and staff required for each hour open.

Who would be materially disadvantaged by taking a day off on Sundays?

Why do shops need to close on a Sunday? It's a relic from a byegone age.

Perhaps those people who don't want to go shopping on Sundays can simply choose not to and those who want to can. There is clearly plenty of demand for shopping on Sundays, so why not just make it a normal trading day and let retailers choose their own hours? (Which would probably still be shorter as there is little demand pre-9am). Let the market decide...

If you work in retail, Sunday is a rubbish day to have off because everything is closed or busy because of the short opening hours. And why should I be forced to have every Sunday off, when I can use a midweek day instead and have a much more productive day and do the things I want without the constraints of Sunday trading?

 

[Comstock]

Why do shops need to open on a Sunday?

They don't *need* to. Just as we don't *need* golf courses or swimming baths or pubs or churches open on a Sunday.

You could make that argument about anything?

Personally I can live with shorter Sunday shopping hours but I've no desire to go back to the "Hancock Sunday" of only 30 years ago.

The best thing to do is to raise wages in law to at least time and a third on Sundays. Preferably time and a half. Then let shops decide if they want to open and let staff decide if the want to work.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Why do shops need to close on a Sunday? It's a relic from a byegone age.

Perhaps those people who don't want to go shopping on Sundays can simply choose not to and those who want to can. There is clearly plenty of demand for shopping on Sundays, so why not just make it a normal trading day and let retailers choose their own hours? (Which would probably still be shorter as there is little demand pre-9am). Let the market decide...

If you work in retail, Sunday is a rubbish day to have off because everything is closed or busy because of the short opening hours.

Retail workers don't have that choice, though. They have to work on the Sunday. In retail, you also benefit from a day off in the week when shops tend to be quieter.

What's wrong with having a day of rest, even if it's a relic?

 

[Puffing Devil]

They don't *need* to. Just as we don't *need* golf courses or swimming baths or pubs or churches open on a Sunday.

You could make that argument about anything?

Personally I can live with shorter Sunday shopping hours but I've no desire to go back to the "Hancock Sunday" of only 30 years ago.

The best thing to do is to raise wages in law to at least time and a third on Sundays. Preferably time and a half. Then let shops decide if they want to open and let staff decide if the want to work.

Putting up wages would increase prices for all. If a shop closed and a competitor stayed open, there would lose business, forcing them to open with increased costs for all.

I think that Anglican Churches do need to open on Sunday - it's in line with the key service provision

 

[Iskra]

Retail workers don't have that choice, though. They have to work on the Sunday. In retail, you also benefit from a day off in the week when shops tend to be quieter.

What's wrong with having a day of rest, even if it's a relic?

Many still do. I do. And I usually choose to work because it’s a shorter day to work and a rubbish one to have off.

Because it’s better to choose my days of rest, instead of having them dictated to me and because I might want to do something on my day off, which is easier if things are open!

 

[Comstock]

Putting up wages would increase prices for all.

Time and a half for six hours on a Sunday would be the equivalent of three extra hours a week. Time and a half for eight hours would be the equivalent of four extra hours a week.

These roughly equate to a gross pay rise of 7.5 to 10 per cent for some of the lowest paid workers in the country.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Many still do. I do. And I usually choose to work because it’s a shorter day to work and a rubbish one to have off.

Because it’s better to choose my days of rest, instead of having them dictated to me and because I might want to do something on my day off, which is easier if things are open!

Most workers have their days off dictated to them, and would also only be able to shop on one of those days if we pulled back on Sunday trading. (Monday-Friday, 9-5 is still the norm for the majority). Arguably, you would be better placed than most to take advantage of a quieter day to shop by having a weekday as a rest day.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Time and a half for six hours on a Sunday would be the equivalent of three extra hours a week. Time and a half for eight hours would be the equivalent of four extra hours a week.

These roughly equate to a gross pay rise of 7.5 to 10 per cent for some of the lowest paid workers in the country.

That's a 10% increase in wages that will either need to be lost in margin (unlikely) or passed on by increasing prices (more likely). Another option would be to reduce hours by 10% to cover the deficit.

 

[Iskra]

Most workers have their days off dictated to them, and would also only be able to shop on one of those days if we pulled back on Sunday trading. (Monday-Friday, 9-5 is still the norm for the majority). Arguably, you would be better placed than most to take advantage of a quieter day to shop by having a weekday as a rest day.

People do choose to do those jobs though. Like I chose a job that involves weekend work. I am, but I still have commitments and interests and considering that I can sometimes work 10-11 days in a row (put your violins down, it evens out eventually), it can be annoying if my next day off falls on a Sunday and I need to go shopping for some reason.

Sunday Trading will always be a thing and it's only going to stay that way, I'd expect Sunday hours to be extended at somepoint in the future. The fact of the matter is that it is the retail sectors second busiest day of the week and the Sabbath is less and less relevant to the lives of most people.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Sunday Trading will always be a thing and it's only going to stay that way, I'd expect Sunday hours to be extended at somepoint in the future. The fact of the matter is that it is the retail sectors second busiest day of the week and the Sabbath is less and less relevant to the lives of most people.

Unfortunately, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and most likely won't be coaxed back in. I have no interest in religion and no agenda for keeping a sabbath day. Personally, the idea of a day of rest appeals and I don't support the adoption of shopping as a leisure activity.

 

[Busaholic]

In Stevenage there are two large Tesco stores. One opens 10-4 and the other 12-6.

No flies on Tesco.

 

[Iskra]

Unfortunately, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and most likely won't be coaxed back in. I have no interest in religion and no agenda for keeping a sabbath day. Personally, the idea of a day of rest appeals and I don't support the adoption of shopping as a leisure activity.

Everyone will still get the same number of rest days though with or without Sunday as a day of rest, all you are doing is unnecessarily restricting those who do have a choice.

You might not, but plenty of people do see shopping as a leisure activity, particularly women*.

*Massive generalisation, I know...

 

[Comstock]

That's a 10% increase in wages that will either need to be lost in margin (unlikely) or passed on by increasing prices (more likely). Another option would be to reduce hours by 10% to cover the deficit.

We aren't going to agree on this, Puffing Devil. But what annoys me is you are sticking up for retailer workers one minute (post #34) then moaning about price rises in the following post when I suggest a partial remedy of higher pay rates for those working on a Sunday.

And higher pay for Sunday work won't only help those who want to work Sunday, it will also mean less subtle pressure on those who choose not to, because there would be more volunteers.

And one last thing. Before someone says how these theoretical price rises would 'hurt poor pensioners', they wouldn't...the state pension is linked to both wages and prices.

 

[Iskra]

We aren't going to agree on this, Puffing Devil. But what annoys me is you are sticking up for retailers one minute (post #34) then moaning about price rises in the following post when I suggest a partial remedy of higher pay rates for those working on a Sunday.

And higher pay for Sunday work won't only help those who want to work Sunday, it will also mean less subtle pressure on those who choose not to, because there would be more volunteers.

And one last thing. Before someone says how these theoretical price rises would 'hurt poor pensioners', they wouldn't...the state pension is linked to both wages and prices.

Although it is less common these days, a Sunday pay premium was in place for years in many shops, and the same prices were charged and companies didn't go bankrupt. In my student job, a £1.40ph premium was paid for both Saturday and Sunday, plus more for any unsociable hours.

 

[scotrail158713]

They don't *need* to. Just as we don't *need* golf courses or swimming baths or pubs or churches open on a Sunday.

I think you’ll find churches do need to be open on a Sunday

 

[Randomer]

Why do shops need to open on a Sunday?

How many people work a 6 day week?

For about a third of the year I travel weekly for work. Mostly with a day off mid week in a random town or city. For a proportion of the time I will work six day weeks as required for overtime due to staffing levels.

In my admittedly fairly small industry I would be one of several thousand people doing a similar thing (or would have been until the current lock down stopped my entire industry.)

Most workers have their days off dictated to them, and would also only be able to shop on one of those days if we pulled back on Sunday trading.

Often the only time I can make it home for several weeks will be on a Sunday, where I have to take care of my house. If no shops were open on Sunday I would have no opportunity to shop for basic home maintenance items at all for months at a time.

Personally I don't see a huge difference in Sunday as some kind of special day in the week. Certainly my current employer views them no differently to any other day of the week contractually. My previous employer paid a double time Sunday premium and an additional payment for inconvenience, ironically being overtime it actually meant working much harder due to pressure to keep shift lengths and staffing to a minimum.

 

[boyaloud]

Why do shops need to close on a Sunday? It's a relic from a byegone age.

Perhaps those people who don't want to go shopping on Sundays can simply choose not to and those who want to can. There is clearly plenty of demand for shopping on Sundays, so why not just make it a normal trading day and let retailers choose their own hours? (Which would probably still be shorter as there is little demand pre-9am). Let the market decide...

If you work in retail, Sunday is a rubbish day to have off because everything is closed or busy because of the short opening hours. And why should I be forced to have every Sunday off, when I can use a midweek day instead and have a much more productive day and do the things I want without the constraints of Sunday trading?

Thank god for someone talking sense and not being stuck in the last century!

 

[Hadders]

Retail workers in England are able to opt out of Sunday working under the Sunday Trading Act 1994. There are slightly different protections depending on whether r not you were employed before the Act came into effect but iirc if you have started employment since 1994 (which mst retail staff will have done) then you have to give 12 weeks notice to stop working on Sundays but the employer is not obliged to make up your hours on other days of the week.

We are not going to stop Sunday trading now, too many jobs would get lost and for many stores it is the busiest day of the week. Personally I would make it law that large shops have to close for one day a week but not specify which day. That way stores could choose the most appropriate day for them.

 

[Iskra]

Retail workers in England are able to opt out of Sunday working under the Sunday Trading Act 1994. There are slightly different protections depending on whether r not you were employed before the Act came into effect but iirc if you have started employment since 1994 (which mst retail staff will have done) then you have to give 12 weeks notice to stop working on Sundays but the employer is not obliged to make up your hours on other days of the week.

We are not going to stop Sunday trading now, too many jobs would get lost and for many stores it is the busiest day of the week. Personally I would make it law that large shops have to close for one day a week but not specify which day. That way stores could choose the most appropriate day for them.

Many retail contracts stipulate that you can be required to work on any day of the week, which nullifies the opt-out option.

 

[Hadders]

Many retail contracts stipulate that you can be required to work on any day of the week, which nullifies the opt-out option.

A contract of employment cannot nullify the law. Shop workers have the right to opt out of Sundays under section 4 of the Sunday Trading Act.

 

[Iskra]

A contract of employment cannot nullify the law. Shop workers have the right to opt out of Sundays under section 4 of the Sunday Trading Act.

But the Sunday Trading Act allows contracts to specify that Sundays are part of the working week and therefore must be treat like any other day... ...so that is in compliance with the law. So basically, it is up to the employer. One of the three employers I've had allowed the opt-out to Sunday working and it was widely abused by people who wanted to get hammered on a Saturday night, claiming they went to church on a Sunday...

 

[Hadders]

Church and religion has nothing to do with it. Shop workers have an absolute right to opt out of Sunday working. Read the Act for yourself. There is a prescribed form of wording that should be included in shop workers contracts. Bear in mind that someone who does opt of of Sunday working risks having their contracted hours reduced as there is no obligation to provide hours on other days of the week.

Retailers might not like it and won't go out of their way to point it out to staff but the law is the law.

 

[Comstock]

. One of the three employers I've had allowed the opt-out to Sunday working and it was widely abused by people who wanted to get hammered on a Saturday night, claiming they went to church on a Sunday...

Was that abuse? Who are you or I to say religious worship is any better use of a persons time than going down the pub?

In any case if it's a shop or betting shop, the law doesn't require you to give a reason to opt out of Sunday work.

 

[Iskra]

Was that abuse? Who are you or I to say praying to a mythical sky-pixie is any better use of a persons time than going down the pub?

In any case if it's a shop or betting shop, the law doesn't require you to give a reason to opt out of Sunday work.

A matter of opinion of course I agree to an extent, but when it was the boss that was doing this it wasn't setting the best example! ...the rest of us just turned up hungover, knowing the boss wouldn't be there and got paid extra for it!

 

[scotrail158713]

praying to a mythical sky-pixie

I appreciate you’re evidently not Christian but out of respect for people who are Christians can you not describe Christianity in that way please? We’re all entitled to our own beliefs.

 

[Comstock]

I appreciate you’re evidently not Christian but out of respect for people who are Christians can you not describe Christianity in that way please? We’re all entitled to our own beliefs.

We are.

I'm perhaps being a touch cynical, I do realise churches are doing good secular work at the moment.... but then so is our local village pub.

 

[Andrew S]

Monday-Friday, 9-5 is still the norm for the majority

Is it? I'm not convinced.

 

[90019]

Retail workers don't have that choice, though.

Lots of industries work a 7 day week. What makes retail special?

 

[Puffing Devil]

We aren't going to agree on this, Puffing Devil. But what annoys me is you are sticking up for retailer workers one minute (post #34) then moaning about price rises in the following post when I suggest a partial remedy of higher pay rates for those working on a Sunday.

And higher pay for Sunday work won't only help those who want to work Sunday, it will also mean less subtle pressure on those who choose not to, because there would be more volunteers.

And one last thing. Before someone says how these theoretical price rises would 'hurt poor pensioners', they wouldn't...the state pension is linked to both wages and prices.

I was not complaining about price rises - I was highlighting the consequences of an increase in pay. Pay rises need to be funded and I would be prepared to bet it won't be profits that are cut, which means either the staff or the consumer needs to pay. That's not an attack on retail workers.

Only the state pension has (for now) a degree of index linking. Many people have workplace pensions which do not provide for inflation protection.