My idea for Class 88s in future passenger work

[James_D]

Is anyone else of the opinion that the Class 88's have unexplored potential, with additional units that could be put into passenger use. How many carriages would the 88 be able to haul on diesel mode whilst keeping DMU timings?

The type of operation i had in mind would be hauling something like a 88 +3/4 carriage formation (including DVT), perhaps Mk.5a's? Essentially a shortened bi-mode Nova 3, on stopper diagrams around the Leeds/Manchester area where regular changes from diesel to OLE are necessary?

 

[xotGD]

Manchester to Windermere. Perfect motive power.

 

[Jonny]

Manchester to Windermere. Perfect motive power.

What about train heat/lighting supply (through the ETH (electric train heat) system or equivalent) when on diesel, as it would have very little spare on diesel?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Manchester to Windermere. Perfect motive power.

Good lord, I would become a haulage basher again if that were to happen!

 

[James_D]

What about train heat/lighting supply (through the ETH (electric train heat) system or equivalent) when on diesel, as it would have very little spare?

Not a bad point. Maybe the trailers & DVT could have battery storage which are charged through the loco when on OLE and are used for heating/lighting when on diesel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What about train heat/lighting supply (through the ETH (electric train heat) system or equivalent) when on diesel, as it would have very little spare?

Heat would drain - so how about summer season only when heat not required and there would be more people using anyway?

 

[JonathanH]

Heat would drain - so how about summer season only when heat not required and there would be more people using anyway?

People expect air conditioning and other niceities such as power sockets in their sealed trains now, it isn't like the 1980s when there was only natural ventilation.

 

[Domh245]

To keep things simple, I'm ignoring the fact that an 88 will beat most DMUs off the line because of the excellent traction from the electric motors and high axle load. To match a 150's power:weight ratio with an 88, you can haul 31t, or approximately less than 1 coach. The 88 only has 940hp on diesel, less when running the 'hotel services' like lighting, air con, etc, and has to haul around it's own 86t as well. I can't tell you what the 'break-even' speed would be where the brilliant acceleration begins to struggle against the lack of power, but I wouldn't want to use it in Diesel on anything approaching a fast or busy line.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

People expect air conditioning and other niceities such as power sockets in their sealed trains now, it isn't like the 1980s when there was only natural ventilation.

To keep things simple, I'm ignoring the fact that an 88 will beat most DMUs off the line because of the excellent traction from the electric motors and high axle load. To match a 150's power:weight ratio with an 88, you can haul 31t, or approximately less than 1 coach. The 88 only has 940hp on diesel, less when running the 'hotel services' like lighting, air con, etc, and has to haul around it's own 86t as well. I can't tell you what the 'break-even' speed would be where the brilliant acceleration begins to struggle against the lack of power, but I wouldn't want to use it in Diesel on anything approaching a fast or busy line.

Looks like it is a "no" then.

 

[Richard Scott]

People expect air conditioning and other niceities such as power sockets in their sealed trains now, it isn't like the 1980s when there was only natural ventilation.

Such a shame, used to genuinely prefer fresh air to artificial atmosphere you get from air conditioning; afraid I'm one of those that most definitely does not prefer air conditioning.
As an aside can an 88 even provide ETS on diesel? As already pointed out wouldn't be much left for traction. Remember pairs of 20s on load 3 on Derby-Crewe trains struggling to maintain DMU timings so don't think an 88 would be up to much, I'm afraid.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

68 + 88 top and tail - sorry derailing the thread into fantasy land and platforms may not be long enough anyway.

 

[supervc-10]

The 88 is really an electric loco with 'last mile' capability on diesel. If a true bi-mode like the 800s is a plug-in hybrid like the Golf GTE or Prius Prime, the 88 is more like the BMW i3 REX. The i3 REX is an electric car first and foremost, with a moped engine under the boot floor which will get you home if you run out of electrons. The whole idea of the 88 is to basically be able to shunt in non-electrified container ports, then head out onto proper electrified lines.

 

[Richard Scott]

The 88 is really an electric loco with 'last mile' capability on diesel. If a true bi-mode like the 800s is a plug-in hybrid like the Golf GTE or Prius Prime, the 88 is more like the BMW i3 REX. The i3 REX is an electric car first and foremost, with a moped engine under the boot floor which will get you home if you run out of electrons. The whole idea of the 88 is to basically be able to shunt in non-electrified container ports, then head out onto proper electrified lines.

The 88 is nowhere near as ugly as a BMW i3 REX, though!

 

[37424]

Is anyone else of the opinion that the Class 88's have unexplored potential, with additional units that could be put into passenger use. How many carriages would the 88 be able to haul on diesel mode whilst keeping DMU timings?

The type of operation i had in mind would be hauling something like a 88 +3/4 carriage formation (including DVT), perhaps Mk.5a's? Essentially a shortened bi-mode Nova 3, on stopper diagrams around the Leeds/Manchester area where regular changes from diesel to OLE are necessary?

So something probably of similar weight to an 802 but with only the power equivalent to 1 engine on an 802 I'm sure that would work well on the drag up to Marsden for instance. So what would be the point given there is already an effective Bi-mode train in the 802. For what you suggest then you need it to have something close to the power of a 68 and in all probability even if such a train existed it would likely be as least as expensive as an 802.

 

[James_D]

So something probably of similar weight to an 802 but with only the power equivalent to 1 engine on an 802 I'm sure that would work well on the drag up to Marsden. So what would be the point given there is already an effective Bi-mode train in the 802. If you want a Bi-mode Loco for the TPE or any other route for that matter, then you need it to have something close to the power of a 68 and in all probability even if such a train existed it would likely be as least as expensive as an 802.

Fair enough, makes sense. Maybe we should just keep churning out 802's across the network and double up the 15X 17X series for capacity. The 802, especially in 5-car is really finding that sweet spot for short-medium distance commuter/semi-fast work. Arguably there is still a gap in the market for a 4/5 car bi-mode with middle-doors and a end-gangway connectors.

 

[37424]

Fair enough, makes sense. Maybe we should just keep churning out 802's across the network and double up the 15X 17X series for capacity. The 802, especially in 5-car is really finding that sweet spot for short-medium distance commuter/semi-fast work. Arguably there is still a gap in the market for a 4/5 car bi-mode with middle-doors and a end-gangway connectors.

Well the 802 isn't really the ideal as a short/medium commuter train but neither is your suggestion both options would be expensive, clearly you need to be looking along the lines of a 769 or if you want something newer the Stadler 755's, or future offerings by other manufacturers, it shouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to add end gangway connectors if specified, and Hitachi might well offer a Bi-mode based on the slower AT200 medium distance train.

But at the moment a substancial part of the demand for this market seems to be satisfied by cheap as chips CAF DMU's, and if only a small section of your route is electrified then the benefits of a 90mph bi-mode are probably not great especially compared to a IET travelling from London to Aberdeen at 125mph and the large high speed section of that journey being electric

 

[43096]

So something probably of similar weight to an 802 but with only the power equivalent to 1 engine on an 802 I'm sure that would work well on the drag up to Marsden for instance. So what would be the point given there is already an effective Bi-mode train in the 802. For what you suggest then you need it to have something close to the power of a 68 and in all probability even if such a train existed it would likely be as least as expensive as an 802.

It’s closer than you think. Stadler are now building true, high performance electro-diesels, just to European loading gauge currently. The diesel part uses the same engine as a Class 68, on electric it is rated at over 6MW (more than a Class 92), max speed 160km/h on 6 axles.

 

[37424]

It’s closer than you think. Stadler are now building true, high performance electro-diesels, just to European loading gauge currently. The diesel part uses the same engine as a Class 68, on electric it is rated at over 6MW (more than a Class 92), max speed 160km/h on 6 axles.

That's interesting although getting it into the UK loading gauge might be tricky and expect such a loco would be mainly benefit freight in this country.

 

[The Planner]

What coaches are you using behind them? all very well beating DMU times if you then lose it on the dwells at stops, which you will.

 

[hexagon789]

To keep things simple, I'm ignoring the fact that an 88 will beat most DMUs off the line because of the excellent traction from the electric motors and high axle load. To match a 150's power:weight ratio with an 88, you can haul 31t, or approximately less than 1 coach. The 88 only has 940hp on diesel, less when running the 'hotel services' like lighting, air con, etc, and has to haul around it's own 86t as well. I can't tell you what the 'break-even' speed would be where the brilliant acceleration begins to struggle against the lack of power, but I wouldn't want to use it in Diesel on anything approaching a fast or busy line.

Also that 938hp is purely what the engine is rated at, transmission losses converting that to electric power mean you'd be lucky to get 90% of that at the rail for traction, ignoring losses for supplying ETS to the coaches.

 

[Roast Veg]

I suppose you might be able to put "Caroline" on and have enough juice after the ETH? Can't use the controls at the other end though.

 

[tetudo boy]

Keep in mind that the Class 88's Diesel mode was only made to cover 1 mile, which means that it's the Last Mile mode for the train, and the diesel-mode is not strong enough. (I might be wrong) Although, Stadler could make a subclass, having 50% of the power in electric and the other 50% diesel instead of having only 17.5% of the power diesel. There are only 10 unit's available so that's why a subclass could add more unit's.

 

[Roast Veg]

They might manage the Stourbridge line with a refuel every couple of trips!

 

[randyrippley]

Whats the reliability of that little engine going to be if used for continuous traction over several hours? Especially if there are several stops. Is that 938hp a continuous rating or a peak rating?

 

[Domh245]

Keep in mind that the Class 88's Diesel mode was only made to cover 1 mile, which means that it's the Last Mile mode for the train, and the diesel-mode is not strong enough. (I might be wrong) Although, Stadler could make a subclass, having 50% of the power in electric and the other 50% diesel instead of having only 17.5% of the power diesel. There are only 10 unit's available so that's why a subclass could add more unit's.

The term 'last mile' is figurative, not literal - they'll have enough diesel onboard to do quite a few miles, just not in any great hurry if they've got a heavy train behind them.
The power isn't combined, it's either/or, so you can't just make it "50-50" unless you have a diesel engine that's capable of matching the output on electric. The electric motors and traction inverters are common to both electric and diesel operation and sets the upper limit of the power available. The diesel engine is limited by the physical size of the train as much as anything else.

For interest, a 4045kW engine from EMD (ie more or less matching the electric power) is 2.8m tall, 1.7m wide and 6.4m long with a dry weight of 21t - not including the necessary exhaust treatment. The unit in the 88 by comparison is 1.4m tall, 1.9m long and 1.6m wide and the equivalent weight is 3t, so you can see why producing a loco that is as powerful on diesel as electric, that'll fit in a UK bodyshell, is impractical to say the least.

Whats the reliability of that little engine going to be if used for continuous traction over several hours? Especially if there are several stops. Is that 938hp a continuous rating or a peak rating?

'Continuous rating' I believe, although Starting v Continuous ratings is more of an electrical motor thing than an actual engine. The same basic engine can be used as part of generators and oil & gas systems with higher HP ratings, so the engine itself should be quite happy to chug along at full whack for extended periods. Whether the radiators, exhaust, etc will also be happy, only Stadler/Vossloh could say.

 

[grangergranger]

The class 88s would only be useful maybe in 5-7 years time when/if the transpennine route gets electrified in order to replace the 68s. Maybe they could do a bit of tweeking so that they are able to reach 125mph. Then the 802s will move to Middlesborough and Scarborough routes.

 

[JonathanH]

The class 88s would only be useful maybe in 5-7 years time when/if the transpennine route gets electrified in order to replace the 68s. Maybe they could do a bit of tweeking so that they are able to reach 125mph. Then the 802s will move to Middlesborough and Scarborough routes.

I don't think that is going to happen. If the Transpennine route is electrified, you would simply procure straight electric 80x units (or 397s) for the current 802 routes, displace the 802s as you suggest to Middlesbrough / Scarborough and return the 68+Mk5s to their lessor. No need to try and get 88s to run at 125mph (which probably isn't possible).

 

[37057]

Is there really anything to gain from having an electric loco hauling stock against an EMU?

Future TPE may be the only thing to consider as they already have the stock, just not the OLE on their routes. That could change in the future but by then, the Class 88 might be considered quite primitive and certainly no use because there are only ten of them built. And to add, why would the current operator give them away if it saves them a fuel bill and represents a cleaner way of moving freight?

 

[37424]

I don't think that is going to happen. If the Transpennine route is electrified, you would simply procure straight electric 80x units (or 397s) for the current 802 routes, displace the 802s as you suggest to Middlesbrough / Scarborough and return the 68+Mk5s to their lessor. No need to try and get 88s to run at 125mph (which probably isn't possible).

Indeed plus the 802's have significantly more capacity than the Loco Hauled sets. Potentially you could look at putting the 68's on the Hull service as by then the upgrade should have the capacity to avoid the need for the Hull service to act as a stopper at peak times, and Liverpool-Nottingham if TPE get it and they don't put the Loco Hauls on it from the start as some think.

It seems to me that the 800/802 is a fantastically brilliant train in many respects as a Bi-mode so why would you need even a capable Bi mode Locomotive for passenger services I doubt it would be cheaper other than in the sense that for the TPE MK5's already exist, and for purely electric it likely makes even less sense these days.

Also remember that Loco Hauled train is single point of failure and in an increasingly busy railway doesn't really want a single point of failure train.

 

[alexl92]

It seems to me that the 800/802 is a fantastically brilliant train in many respects as a Bi-mode so why would you need even a capable Bi mode Locomotive for passenger services I doubt it would be cheaper other than in the sense that for the TPE MK5's already exist, and for purely electric it likely makes even less sense these days.

Also remember that Loco Hauled train is single point of failure and in an increasingly busy railway doesn't really want a single point of failure train.

The flip side of that of course is that if the loco fails, you can just swap another loco onto the set and not lose the coach capacity. Swings and Roundabouts I suppose!