Bit of trouble on Southern today!

[Minstral25]

Southern had major issues this evening due to signal failure at East Croydon which isn't that newsworthy.

However the Driver on our train made an announcement that made me grin. Pulled up at the last signal before Redhill with a train almost 40 minutes late and then passed the message

"Sorry for the continuing delay to your train, the signalman has just told me that all the platforms at Redhill are full and there are no drivers to move any of the trains"

We waited about 30 minutes to do the last 100 yards, no doubt with several trains up our backside!

I'm assuming that the trains were dropped in the platforms by UFO's!

 

[222007]

Or maybe the drivers of them trains had finished there shift and buggered of home (i dont know where southern booking on/off points are)

 

[GearJammer]

Can drivers just get off and leave a train if there out of hours? and what hours can they drive for? I recall when i worked at freightliner a train came in to Millbrook the shunter uncoupled the 66 the driver pulled off the train and shut the loco down, i asked the shunter what was going on as the driver usually takes the loco over to Maritime depot, he said the driver was out of time and a van would come pick him up and take him to Maritime, i pointed out it would be quicker for him to drive the 66 over there but he said he would'nt, in the end the next train that came in, the 66 uncoupled and they joined the two together and took the pair over light engine, it all seemed a bit daft to me.
So what are traain drivers driving hours rules, surely there must be some flexibility?

 

[westcoaster]

The problem was that three bridges panel 1 failed causing all the problems, this was not rectified for an hour, so when trains got moving they were all around an hour late.

Now the reason that redhill maybe fullup is that there is a train crew depot there, so train crew maybe on pnb's I.e that late running that they could have had a straight turn around at vic and may need to have a break.

Each toc t&c's are different, we have to complete our pnb by the 7th hour.

 

[Minstral25]

Pretty sure Redhill is a clocking off point as lots of trains divide there. The dividing of trains at Redhill always means lots of trouble in the peaks anyway.

It's a shame rules are so fixed now, in olden times a Driver could have said I'll take that unit empty to Selhurst/Three Bridges to clear a space but now they just have to go to rest as the rules are so strict. (assume pnb means rest).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

pnb = personal needs break.

 

[thewolf]

Can drivers just get off and leave a train if there out of hours? and what hours can they drive for? I recall when i worked at freightliner a train came in to Millbrook the shunter uncoupled the 66 the driver pulled off the train and shut the loco down, i asked the shunter what was going on as the driver usually takes the loco over to Maritime depot, he said the driver was out of time and a van would come pick him up and take him to Maritime, i pointed out it would be quicker for him to drive the 66 over there but he said he would'nt, in the end the next train that came in, the 66 uncoupled and they joined the two together and took the pair over light engine, it all seemed a bit daft to me.
So what are traain drivers driving hours rules, surely there must be some flexibility?

About a year ago, on my way back from Euston to Brum - on a train already about an hour late - we were stopped at Rugby for a while, then the driver went and had a word with the guard and disappeared. Guard came on the PA and said we'd be a while as the driver had to go and move another train. Went to stretch my legs and asked the guard what was happening, apparently a freight train was stuck at a signal behind a train that was parked up in the station, with the driver of the freight train threatening to shut it down and go home if it didn't get moved. So I'm assuming he was close to finishing for the day so was prepared to just abandon ship

So we were sat there for about 30 minutes while our driver went and moved it. Didn't get back to New Street until after 1am, on a train that was meant to be in at 11 that night :-x

 

[455driver]

If a train driver is out of hours and "does them a favour", and something goes wrong he will be for the high jump. A lot (in fact most) of drivers I know would do whatever was necessary to keep the job going as long as somebody else gives them clearance.
Unfortunately the way the railways are that clearance is very rarely given so the drivers are not prepared to take the chance so the job stops.
That "something goes wrong" doesnt have to be the drivers "fault" but if he is over hours then he WILL get the blame.

 

[EPB on Tour]

If a train driver is out of hours and "does them a favour", and something goes wrong he will be for the high jump. A lot (in fact most) of drivers I know would do whatever was necessary to keep the job going as long as somebody else gives them clearance.
Unfortunately the way the railways are that clearance is very rarely given so the drivers are not prepared to take the chance so the job stops.
That "something goes wrong" doesnt have to be the drivers "fault" but if he is over hours then he WILL get the blame.

Spot on,but try explaining that time and again to Mr Commuter,or Mr Spotter who both think we are bone lazy idle layabouts,who will do anything to stop the job or delay them.

 

[Metroland]

Well this is the problem, and it's often levelled at the train operators by the public that 'they don't tell us what is going on'. That's usually because its gets so amazingly complicated, nobody knows what's going on.

Driver's will abandon trains in platforms and go off for their PNB (which they are entitled, and if they don't take them they will be for the high jump).

Often those announcements that X train has no driver is because an incoming train is late, and the driver misses his back working. And where Guards are involved, you can double that problem again.

Major disruption involves 100s of train crew swaps, phone calls, set swaps, replatforming galore as platforms get blocked up, or backworkings are delayed. It's quite common to have green signals at the end of the platform with no driver, with the route blocking other trains leaving and arriving if the TOC/platform staff/Train crew side don't think 2 steps forward.

 

[Minstral25]

Real life throws up situations that require a bit of lateral thinking and to avoid rigid rules. Drivers and Guards should be able to "help out" without "health and Safety" cutting in and the Driver/Guard going for the "high jump" and getting the blame if anything goes wrong (unless its their fault obviously). It shouldn't be allowed to be the Norm but when things go wrong and some extra help is needed why not!

Of course in the safety concious, litigation friendly world it will never happen.

As for thinking drivers/guards are layabouts that is untrue. I think most commuters appreciate train crew and understand why things like this happen but that doesn't stop us being fed up and angry when our lives are ruined by delays. Its called frustration and we are only human after all.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Real life throws up situations that require a bit of lateral thinking and to avoid rigid rules. Drivers and Guards should be able to "help out" without "health and Safety" cutting in and the Driver/Guard going for the "high jump" and getting the blame if anything goes wrong (unless its their fault obviously). It shouldn't be allowed to be the Norm but when things go wrong and some extra help is needed why not!

Of course in the safety concious, litigation friendly world it will never happen.

As for thinking drivers/guards are layabouts that is untrue. I think most commuters appreciate train crew and understand why things like this happen but that doesn't stop us being fed up and angry when our lives are ruined by delays. Its called frustration and we are only human after all.

The way the railway works from a few crew that I've spoken to in the past, personally I won't blame them for not doing any overtime, especially the way ambulance chasing lawyers work now. It only takes a split second to do something wrong when they're tired and bang, they could easily hurt not only themselves but others & what thanks will they get? None, they're just as likely to be sacked.

 

[455driver]

As for thinking drivers/guards are layabouts that is untrue.

I don't think commuters realise there are human beings working the trains these days.

I think most commuters appreciate train crew and understand why things like this happen but that doesn't stop us being fed up and angry when our lives are ruined by delays.

So why don't people say good morning or thank you any more, as far as most of the commuters are concerned we are there to be ignored when all is well, and abused when it all goes wrong!

Its called frustration and we are only human after all.

Not what I would call it, because I don't hurl abuse at people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances.

 

[EPB on Tour]

Real life throws up situations that require a bit of lateral thinking and to avoid rigid rules. Drivers and Guards should be able to "help out" without "health and Safety" cutting in and the Driver/Guard going for the "high jump" and getting the blame if anything goes wrong (unless its their fault obviously). It shouldn't be allowed to be the Norm but when things go wrong and some extra help is needed why not!

Ok,so I am already on 12 hours worked,having agreed to help out earlier,and my last working has no relief through no fault of my own when I get to my home depot.What you are saying is that I should ignore all laid down rules and take that train on to its destination,taking me maybe up to 15 hours worked,just so you can get home for your dinner party ?

On that run back, (in hot weather we have had recently) I miss a signal through sheer tiredness,resulting in a major pitch in with loss of life etc.You no doubt will then be onto the Daily Mail/Evening Standard etc etc moaning about how wrong it was that the Driver was working so long hours,and putting your safety at risk.

Rule on safe working are laid down to protect us and YOU,so think about that next time before you blame and dictate to us about what we should do,just to keep the job running.

 

[Greenback]

The rigid rules that Minstral refers to have been introduced over many years as a result of investigations into accidents. They are to help ensure that accidents can be avoided wherever possible.

I don't think many people understand how physically and mentally draining it must be to drive a train for long periods, given the level of concentration that is required.

 

[Minstral25]

If you had worked a 12 hour shift I would definitely not expect it. In fact I am surprised if that would have been allowed as I would have though 8 hours enough, but then I am not an expert.

Additionally I said take the empty stock to depot not run a passenger train - the TOC would have to live with a cancellation.

I have utmost respect for Drivers and guards as neither of your jobs are easy and both come with responsibility.

However I would remind drivers so do the jobs that most of us do day to day who commute as well. Which is why sometimes we are very stressed when delayed after our 10-12 hours in the office.

 

[asylumxl]

I don't think commuters realise there are human beings working the trains these days.
So why don't people say good morning or thank you any more, as far as most of the commuters are concerned we are there to be ignored when all is well, and abused when it all goes wrong!
Not what I would call it, because I don't hurl abuse at people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances.

I say good morning and thank you. That's really nothing to do with your vocation, It's your upbringing. People are getting ruder because of the direction society has gone. In London and SE you'll be lucky if your neighbour even says Good Morning..

 

[Aictos]

The rigid rules that Minstral refers to have been introduced over many years as a result of investigations into accidents. They are to help ensure that accidents can be avoided wherever possible.

I don't think many people understand how physically and mentally draining it must be to drive a train for long periods, given the level of concentration that is required.

Which is why a East Coast guard and driver of a Kings Cross to Edinburgh service would only go as far as Newcastle and let a fresh crew relieve them there.

I did speak to a colleague of mine where we were discussing this and a trial happened a while back where the crew relieve didn't happen of a Kings Cross to Edinburgh service, hence the driver lost his concentration because of how physically and mentally draining it is to drive for that long which rightly so threw that idea out of the window.

This is why it's important for all safety critical staff to ensure they get a rest period.

 

[Greenback]

If you had worked a 12 hour shift I would definitely not expect it. In fact I am surprised if that would have been allowed as I would have though 8 hours enough, but then I am not an expert.

Additionally I said take the empty stock to depot not run a passenger train - the TOC would have to live with a cancellation.

I have utmost respect for Drivers and guards as neither of your jobs are easy and both come with responsibility.

However I would remind drivers so do the jobs that most of us do day to day who commute as well. Which is why sometimes we are very stressed when delayed after our 10-12 hours in the office.

Speaking as a commuter, I am thankful that my job does not involve taking responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people, where a lapse in concentration could prove disastrous to many lives.

I am glad that I can have a few beers in the evening if I want, and get up the next day at a reasonably civilised 0730, when many rail staff have already been in work for hours, and go to work where the worst that can happen due to any mistake I make is that I mess up my accounts or have to apologise for a spelling error. I'm also glad that I don't have to put up with abuse hurled in my direction for things that are outside my control, just because other people are frustrated and miserable with their own daily lives! (Not directed at you personally Mistral, thinking more of people who are facing redundancy, or having a hard time from their boss, and take it out on other human beings!)

 

[Minstral25]

Speaking as a commuter, I am thankful that my job does not involve taking responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people, where a lapse in concentration could prove disastrous to many lives.

I am glad that I can have a few beers in the evening if I want, and get up the next day at a reasonably civilised 0730, when many rail staff have already been in work for hours, and go to work where the worst that can happen due to any mistake I make is that I mess up my accounts or have to apologise for a spelling error. I'm also glad that I don't have to put up with abuse hurled in my direction for things that are outside my control, just because other people are frustrated and miserable with their own daily lives! (Not directed at you personally Mistral, thinking more of people who are facing redundancy, or having a hard time from their boss, and take it out on other human beings!)

Greenback - no problem with your comments - I'd just point out I was made redundant, out of work for 11 months and now have a crap job at half my previous salary (I don't want any sympathy for that - it is life and I'm doing better than many).

I now get a train between 6:30 and 7 to get to my desk by 8am and normally catch a train home around 6pm from London (no time for a beer sadly). That is a long day. I'm lucky I usually get a seat but I see several hundred people squashed into a train every morning and often in the evening too.

I was just trying to point out that a lot of commuters don't have an exactly pleasant working day - then to get messed around by trains before and after will take them close to breaking point.

I get very tired of railway staff complaining about commuters as if the commuter is having an easy life. Generally they are not. Equally I get tired of politicians and rail managers who fail to organise properly, have contingencies for problems, employ enough workers and think it is OK for commuters to pay £2,500 per year to stand for 30 plus minutes on a regular basis after you have done a 10 hour day.

I do respect the Drivers and guards for the responsibility they take on. I just don't think the railway employs enough. They should not be put at the strain of 12 hour days.