Could Class class 88 or 93s replace Class 57s on GWR's Night Riviera?

[Peter Kelford]

That's why I suggested the a 90 and DVT till the station in which the electrification stops, then the 90 gets swapped out for a 67 the rest of the way.

I see. Why would you need a DVT then?
The electrification goes as far as Newbury, which admittedly does have a few crossovers and a headshunt, but I don't know how efficient that might by. Besides, the short electrification distance, mostly over the 'billiard table' would probably mean minimal time savings, that a 10-minute loco change might lose.

 

[Aictos]

I see. Why would you need a DVT then?
The electrification goes as far as Newbury, which admittedly does have a few crossovers and a headshunt, but I don't know how efficient that might by. Besides, the short electrification distance, mostly over the 'billiard table' would probably mean minimal time savings, that a 10-minute loco change might lose.

Why would you need a DVT? Simple, it means not having to have two locos allocated to the sleeper in that one brings it into the terminus aka Paddington and one to actually work it to Penzance when you can leave the DVT at the London end and have the loco at the Country end.

It's then a push pull set which is far more efficient then the old style of shunting locos around, it's worked for years on the ECML, WCML, GEML so no reason why it can't work on the GWML on the sleepers.

 

[talltim]

With a small fleet like the sleeper 57s, it’s actually useful to have the extra loco normally used on the ECS movement, it’s then available as a hot spare. Get rid of it and if your train loco dies the DVT won’t be getting you anywhere quickly

 

[Aictos]

With a small fleet like the sleeper 57s, it’s actually useful to have the extra loco normally used on the ECS movement, it’s then available as a hot spare. Get rid of it and if your train loco dies the DVT won’t be getting you anywhere quickly

Then how did the East Coast manage for nearly 30 years then?

Long Rock and Old Oak Common isn't that far from both Penzance or Paddington so if the diagrammed loco fails then use the other loco on depot.

Equally if the sleeper fails half way between London and Penzance, that loco used to drag the sleeper into the station of origin isn't going to be helpful especially if it's a Class 08 so I fail to see why using a push pull set is so much of a issue especially when they've work for years in Scotland, GEML, WCML, ECML and the Chilterns.

 

[Energy]

Then how did the East Coast manage for nearly 30 years then?

Long Rock and Old Oak Common isn't that far from both Penzance or Paddington so if the diagrammed loco fails then use the other loco on depot.

Equally if the sleeper fails half way between London and Penzance, that loco used to drag the sleeper into the station of origin isn't going to be helpful especially if it's a Class 08 so I fail to see why using a push pull set is so much of a issue especially when they've work for years in Scotland, GEML, WCML, ECML and the Chilterns.

Meanwhile the 90 has roughly double the output of a 57, the class 67 is also very powerful on diesel and a single 67 would sometimes haul intercity 225s.

 

[Aictos]

Meanwhile the 90 has roughly double the output of a 57, the class 67 is also very powerful on diesel and a single 67 would sometimes haul intercity 225s.

Actually I think Chiltern Railways would disagree with you on the Class 67s being powerful indeed they were compared to being weaker then the Class 31s.

A different class…

Chiltern Railways Operations and Safety Director ANDREW MUNDEN tells RICHARD CLINNICK why the operator is replacing Class 67s with new Class 68s

www.railmagazine.com

 

[Peter Kelford]

Why would you need a DVT? Simple, it means not having to have two locos allocated to the sleeper in that one brings it into the terminus aka Paddington and one to actually work it to Penzance when you can leave the DVT at the London end and have the loco at the Country end.

It's then a push pull set which is far more efficient then the old style of shunting locos around, it's worked for years on the ECML, WCML, GEML so no reason why it can't work on the GWML on the sleepers.

Wouldn't the DVT conversely complicate matters when changing locos though?

 

[Peter Kelford]

It's then a push pull set which is far more efficient then the old style of shunting locos around, it's worked for years on the ECML, WCML, GEML so no reason why it can't work on the GWML on the sleepers.

If you don't change loco, yes.

 

[Meerkat]

Wouldn't the DVT conversely complicate matters when changing locos though?

Would they need to regularly?

 

[43096]

Then how did the East Coast manage for nearly 30 years then?

They've had diesel Thunderbirds strategically located along the route!

Long Rock and Old Oak Common isn't that far from both Penzance or Paddington so if the diagrammed loco fails then use the other loco on depot.

Old Oak is shut - that's why the sleeper now goes empty to Reading after arriving in London.

 

[Aictos]

They've had diesel Thunderbirds strategically located along the route!


Old Oak is shut - that's why the sleeper now goes empty to Reading after arriving in London.

Base a loco at Reading then, not difficult!

 

[43096]

Base a loco at Reading then, not difficult!

Which is what the situation is now, just the "spare" loco works the empty stock up to Paddington and is detached when it gets to Reading.

I'm not understanding your logic here. On the one hand you say you go with DVTs, now you say you need a back-up loco regardless: so why not carry on with the current mode of operation.

 

[Aictos]

Which is what the situation is now, just the "spare" loco works the empty stock up to Paddington and is detached when it gets to Reading.

I'm not understanding your logic here. On the one hand you say you go with DVTs, now you say you need a back-up loco regardless: so why not carry on with the current mode of operation.

I'm saying go with DVTs and convert the sleeper to push pull operation, those who say well what happens if the DVT has a fault well you simply get the loco to drag the set to London whereas on arrival, a loco comes from Reading to drag the set away.

It's not rocket science, for a example look on the East Coast when there's a fault with the DVT so the loco arrives at Kings Cross on the buffers, you still need a loco from somewhere to drag the whole set away.

 

[Energy]

I'm saying go with DVTs and convert the sleeper to push pull operation, those who say well what happens if the DVT has a fault well you simply get the loco to drag the set to London whereas on arrival, a loco comes from Reading to drag the set away.

It's not rocket science, for a example look on the East Coast when there's a fault with the DVT so the loco arrives at Kings Cross on the buffers, you still need a loco from somewhere to drag the whole set away.

What rescue's an IET if it fails? Another IET?

 

[43 302]

I'm saying go with DVTs and convert the sleeper to push pull operation, those who say well what happens if the DVT has a fault well you simply get the loco to drag the set to London whereas on arrival, a loco comes from Reading to drag the set away.

It's not rocket science, for a example look on the East Coast when there's a fault with the DVT so the loco arrives at Kings Cross on the buffers, you still need a loco from somewhere to drag the whole set away.

I don't understand what the advantage of push-pull operation is on a service that operates once a day. If there was a massive advantage, surely they would have acquired some of the many spare Mk3 DVTs there are (or were), before considering buying new stock with one.

 

[Aictos]

What rescue's an IET if it fails? Another IET?

Course, using LNER as a example if a Azuma fails then another Azuma can be coupled to the failed one to move it, with BiModes tho it's possible for them to move under their own power IF only one power source is affected

 

[43 302]

Course, using LNER as a example if a Azuma fails then another Azuma can be coupled to the failed one to move it, with BiModes tho it's possible for them to move under their own power IF only one power source is affected

The electric only 801s still have one diesel engine they can use in emergency.

 

[43096]

I'm saying go with DVTs and convert the sleeper to push pull operation, those who say well what happens if the DVT has a fault well you simply get the loco to drag the set to London whereas on arrival, a loco comes from Reading to drag the set away.

It's not rocket science, for a example look on the East Coast when there's a fault with the DVT so the loco arrives at Kings Cross on the buffers, you still need a loco from somewhere to drag the whole set away.

So you're keeping a spare loco at Reading in case? In that case there is zero point to having the DVT as you still need another loco anyway.

 

[HSTEd]

So you're keeping a spare loco at Reading in case? In that case there is zero point to having the DVT as you still need another loco anyway.

You don't need to mess around with shunt moves with the associated staffing?

How often does modern traction to fail.
Is a Thunderbird locomotive provided for the GWML area given the ride variety of stock types present?

Why can't an IEP haul the dead sleeper formation out of the way if it becomes necessary?

EDIT:

Also if your locomtoive at the country end fails in Paddington, you are still stuffed, you will have to do a very slow propelling move into the Royal Oak Carriage Sidings, run around and then haul the train with the locomotive dead in the formation on the journey.
That's assuming the carriage sidings are clear.

How long do you expect all that to take?

And thats assuming the fault with the leading locomotive allows it to be moved.
Essentially the service is dead if it happens anyway.

 

[Aictos]

[

You don't need to mess around with shunt moves with the associated staffing?

Exactly, that's the main benefit of push pull services.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Would they need to regularly?

Well at the end of the electrified zone, yes...unless you are running a diesel or bi-mode, in which case there's only the Class 88, but then the diesel power is insufficient.

 

[Meerkat]

Well at the end of the electrified zone, yes...unless you are running a diesel or bi-mode, in which case there's only the Class 88, but then the diesel power is insufficient.

How difficult can it be? EMUs divide in service at regular intervals and they have the equivalent need for driving controls from end to end.
Put a generator and pantograph on the train for hotel power. Take the load off the loco, and you don’t need a loco connected all the time passengers are onboard.

 

[Energy]

How difficult can it be? EMUs divide in service at regular intervals and they have the equivalent need for driving controls from end to end.
Put a generator and pantograph on the train for hotel power. Take the load off the loco, and you don’t need a loco connected all the time passengers are onboard.

Chiltern's DVTs have an engine inside for power when no loco is connected.

 

[43096]

How difficult can it be? EMUs divide in service at regular intervals and they have the equivalent need for driving controls from end to end.
Put a generator and pantograph on the train for hotel power. Take the load off the loco, and you don’t need a loco connected all the time passengers are onboard.

Or just use a diesel throughout as a) electrification doesn’t even get to Bristol on the Box route, b) you need an extra loco as you’ll still need 2 locos for the unelectrified bit (one up, one down) plus the electric, c) you’ll need a spare electric loco to cover for maintenance/failures, d) it’s another microfleet, e) you need a shunter to couple/uncouple and f) you have additional training costs.

This idea of swapping locos is a typical enthusiast view of the world which ignores real practicalities and costs. Given the small fleet involved you either need an electro-diesel that can work throughout - which doesn’t exist yet in UK gauge - or a diesel. I’d actually contract out traction provision in the same way that Caledonian Sleeper have done.

 

[Energy]

I’d actually contract out traction provision in the same way that Caledonian Sleeper have done.

Yep, doesn't make sense for them to do maintenance themselves for such a small fleet, DB have 67s and 90s in storage.