Southeastern service to Three Bridges in the 1990s-2000s

[Murray J]

recently i've discovered several photos on flickr of southeastern class 508s at Three Bridges, in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s. after a bit of digging, it appears southeastern used to operate services to Three Bridges from originally Tonbridge and then Maidstone West. I still have a few questions though, such as:

When and why did these services stop?
If the services stopped after the class 508 fleet was withdrawn, what replaced them?
How often was it operated?
what stations on the BML section did it serve?

any information on these services, particularly answering these questions, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it was mainly to link Kent with Gatwick Airport. I used it a couple of times but didn't find 508's up to the standard of accommodation to which I'd become accustomed to, on the Southern.

 

[Murray J]

I think it was mainly to link Kent with Gatwick Airport. I used it a couple of times but didn't find 508's up to the standard of accommodation to which I'd become accustomed to, on the Southern.

yeah, i've heard that the 508s were incredibly unpopular with passengers, due to low comfort and ride quality.

 

[ctrh136]

I remember before the Redhill-Tonbridge line got moved over to Southern that there was some sort of joint service between Southern & Southeastern that went between Horsham and Tunbridge Wells. I think by then it used Southern's 377s (one that came off this route actually joined up to another 377 at Horsham to form an evening peak service to Victoria via Sutton if I remember correctly).
It ended up being replaced between Horsham & Redhill when Southern took over the Redhill-Tonbridge line by a 2nd train per hour running to London Bridge (at that point the London Bridge to Horsham service was hourly I think, with there being a half hourly stopping service to Redhill made up of that and the Southeastern service from London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells via Redhill) with the Tonbridge line going to 1tph off peak (with the direct service to Victoria).

 

[yorksrob]

yeah, i've heard that the 508s were incredibly unpopular with passengers, due to low comfort and ride quality.

Yes, they were very austere.

 

[JonathanH]

The service changed a few times.

For the period when there was a Horsham to Tunbridge Wells service, it was generally operated with Southern units with one diagram formed of Southeastern stock which used a slam door set. This arrangement had gone by the time the slam door trains were being replaced.

508s worked London Bridge to Maidstone West but in the evenings went to Three Bridges instead. 508s also worked to Reigate until September 2002.

Effectively, there was London Bridge to Horsham on one side of the hour and London Bridge to Maidstone West / Tunbridge Wells to Horsham on the other side of the hour.

 

[Murray J]

The service changed a few times.

For the period when there was a Horsham to Tunbridge Wells service, it was generally operated with Southern units with one diagram formed of Southeastern stock which used a slam door set. This arrangement had gone by the time the slam door trains were being replaced.

508s worked London Bridge to Maidstone West but in the evenings went to Three Bridges instead. 508s also worked to Reigate until September 2002.

Effectively, there was London Bridge to Horsham on one side of the hour and London Bridge to Maidstone West / Tunbridge Wells to Horsham on the other side of the hour.

did they work to reigate from london bridge as well?

 

[JonathanH]

did they work to reigate from london bridge as well?

For a while there was a Reigate to London Bridge working with a 508 - Connex had integrated some of the Reigate to Redhill shuttles with trains between Redhill and Tonbridge so there was a 508 turn which did a Reigate to London Bridge trip at 1752 and which then worked a London Bridge to Tonbridge service.

Amazing that you think they could send 3 coach trains into London Bridge at the end of the evening peak back then.

 

[prod_pep]

I have amongst my notes a 508-booked 1841 Reigate to Tonbridge service on weekdays only which ceased in September 2002. For a time, I think a 508 was used on a daytime Maidstone West - Three Bridges service (with some terminating instead at Gatwick Airport).

The Connex 508s were also briefly the booked traction on the daytime Grove Park to Bromley North service, although their availability rates meant a 466 often substituted. A 508 would run empty to and from Gillingham Depot to work the branch, but the arrangement only lasted from winter 1999 to summer 2000.

 

[class387]

For a while there was a Reigate to London Bridge working with a 508 - Connex had integrated some of the Reigate to Redhill shuttles with trains between Redhill and Tonbridge so there was a 508 turn which did a Reigate to London Bridge trip at 1752 and which then worked a London Bridge to Tonbridge service.

Amazing that you think they could send 3 coach trains into London Bridge at the end of the evening peak back then.

Out of interest, do you remember the stopping pattern of the London Bridge services - did the 508s run on the fast or slow lines?

 

[prod_pep]

Out of interest, do you remember the stopping pattern of the London Bridge services - did the 508s run on the fast or slow lines?

They ran on the fast lines. In later years, the 508s worked an hourly London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells service, generally first stop Norwood Junction, then East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and then all shacks to Tunbridge Wells. I think some even omitted Norwood Junction.

 

[class387]

They ran on the fast lines. In later years, the 508s worked an hourly London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells service, generally first stop Norwood Junction, then East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill and then all shacks to Tunbridge Wells. I think some even omitted Norwood Junction.

Wow, that can't have been a great journey. 377s must have felt like a massive upgrade on this route.

 

[JonathanH]

Out of interest, do you remember the stopping pattern of the London Bridge services - did the 508s run on the fast or slow lines?

I think the 1752 from Reigate while it ran went up the slow from Stoats Nest Junction.

However, at one point there was a 1741 from Redhill (1710 from Tonbridge) to London Bridge which crossed slow to fast at Stoats Nest Junction. If you caught this train you could on some occasions change into the previous stopping train at East Croydon from Redhill which had come up the slow line and stopped at Purley.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

recently i've discovered several photos on flickr of southeastern class 508s at Three Bridges, in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s. after a bit of digging, it appears southeastern used to operate services to Three Bridges from originally Tonbridge and then Maidstone West. I still have a few questions though, such as:

When and why did these services stop?
If the services stopped after the class 508 fleet was withdrawn, what replaced them?
How often was it operated?
what stations on the BML section did it serve?

any information on these services, particularly answering these questions, would be greatly appreciated.

Just a quick addition from me.

Way back when, and around about 2006, I do recall Tunbridge Wells only had a half-hourly service to London via Sevenoaks (both from Hastings). To fill in, there was an hourly service to Three Bridges via Redhill and an hourly service to London Bridge via Redhill. The Three Bridges used Southern 377s but mostly Southeastern crew (at least to Redhill, but Southeastern signed Three Bridges from memory), and the London Bridge was often a 3/375.

When it was 508s, it was usually London Bridge to Maidstone West on weekdays, but then that switched to Strood to Three Bridges on Sunday’s when the entire line was hourly. That’s probably 2001/2002.

Every now and again coming back from the Spa Valley if I missed a Charing Cross direct I’d swiftly jump onto the Three Bridges and it was about +5 at Tonbridge. Handy.

 

[Murray J]

Just a quick addition from me.

Way back when, and around about 2006, I do recall Tunbridge Wells only had a half-hourly service to London via Sevenoaks (both from Hastings). To fill in, there was an hourly service to Three Bridges via Redhill and an hourly service to London Bridge via Redhill. The Three Bridges used Southern 377s but mostly Southeastern crew (at least to Redhill, but Southeastern signed Three Bridges from memory), and the London Bridge was often a 3/375.

When it was 508s, it was usually London Bridge to Maidstone West on weekdays, but then that switched to Strood to Three Bridges on Sunday’s when the entire line was hourly. That’s probably 2001/2002.

Every now and again coming back from the Spa Valley if I missed a Charing Cross direct I’d swiftly jump onto the Three Bridges and it was about +5 at Tonbridge. Handy.

Ah that is interesting. Any idea when these services stopped?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ah that is interesting. Any idea when these services stopped?

Im going for December 2009 when there was a huge shake up.

 

[prod_pep]

I've had a deeper delve into my notes from various defunct railway sites and found the following:

Friday 27/09/02 was the last day of booked Connex S.E. services to Reigate. Last services to and from London Bridge were 2B51 16.57 London Bridge - Reigate (arr. 17.34) and 2B16 17.51 Reigate - London Bridge, both worked by 508208. Last ever Connex departure from Reigate was 508202 on 2J63 18.41 Reigate - Tonbridge.

I'm not sure when the majority of the London Bridge - Maidstone West services were switched to Tunbridge Wells, but it must have been before December 2006 when the 508 diagrams reduced to four. The London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells service switched to Southern (and was curtailed at Tonbridge I think) from the December 2008 timetable change, when the remaining 508/2s were withdrawn.

 

[Murray J]

Im going for December 2009 when there was a huge shake up.

I've had a deeper delve into my notes from various defunct railway sites and found the following:

Friday 27/09/02 was the last day of booked Connex S.E. services to Reigate. Last services to and from London Bridge were 2B51 16.57 London Bridge - Reigate (arr. 17.34) and 2B16 17.51 Reigate - London Bridge, both worked by 508208. Last ever Connex departure from Reigate was 508202 on 2J63 18.41 Reigate - Tonbridge.

I'm not sure when the majority of the London Bridge - Maidstone West services were switched to Tunbridge Wells, but it must have been before December 2006 when the 508 diagrams reduced to four. The London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells service switched to Southern (and was curtailed at Tonbridge I think) from the December 2008 timetable change, when the remaining 508/2s were withdrawn.

Ah ok, many thanks both of you.

 

[prod_pep]

The Brighton Line: A Traction History by Simon Jeffs claims the Maidstone West - Three Bridges service was withdrawn in September 2006, but it might have been earlier. The London Bridge - Maidstone West service provided the hourly service between Maidstone and Paddock Wood off-peak, with the gaps filled by extending one Strood service an hour to Paddock Wood in the morning and again from 15.00. When the London Bridge service was diverted to Tunbridge Wells, the tidier service pattern of one Strood service an hour extended to Paddock Wood was adopted all day.

I did a return London Bridge to Redhill journey on 508s back in 2005, and could've sworn they were running to Tunbridge Wells that day.

 

[Bikeman78]

yeah, i've heard that the 508s were incredibly unpopular with passengers, due to low comfort and ride quality.

The suspension on them isn't too bad. Better than 455s for example. They were seen by Connex as a cheap and cheerful way to get rid of a few CEPs.

 

[Bikeman78]

I've had a deeper delve into my notes from various defunct railway sites and found the following:

Friday 27/09/02 was the last day of booked Connex S.E. services to Reigate. Last services to and from London Bridge were 2B51 16.57 London Bridge - Reigate (arr. 17.34) and 2B16 17.51 Reigate - London Bridge, both worked by 508208. Last ever Connex departure from Reigate was 508202 on 2J63 18.41 Reigate - Tonbridge.

I'm not sure when the majority of the London Bridge - Maidstone West services were switched to Tunbridge Wells, but it must have been before December 2006 when the 508 diagrams reduced to four. The London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells service switched to Southern (and was curtailed at Tonbridge I think) from the December 2008 timetable change, when the remaining 508/2s were withdrawn.

I must say I've lost track of all the changes. I remember 508s at Reigate, along with CEPs, NSE livery CIGs and 3582 even turned up. That was the VEP with the 4TC carriage.

The initial electric service in 1994 was hourly Three Bridges to Maidstone West. Initially it was always VEPs, one Central, two South Eastern if I recall correctly. In May 1995 they added the Victoria to Tunbridge Wells trains. This was when most diagrams switched to CEPs and I think South Eastern covered the whole service. The Tunbridge Wells trains went all sort of strange routes between Victoria and East Croydon but mainly via Stewarts Lane and Pouparts Jn. They only stopped at East Croydon, Redhill, Tonbridge and High Brooms. Peak trains ran from London Bridge. Other stops were added over the next few timetables and I think they switched to London Bridge all day. The peak Reigate trains were tied in with this service.

This is where I lose track. At some point, presumably September 2002, the South Eastern trains became part of the standard half hourly stopping service between London Bridge and Redhill, XX:03 to Maidstone West and XX:33 to Horsham. These were booked 508s but 3CEPs often substituted. South of Redhill, the path of what would have been the XX:03 London Bridge to Horsham was taken up by the Tunbridge Wells to Horsham train. The latter route was a mix of Central and South Eastern CIG/VEP units. One turn was booked a South Eastern CIG which did the 10:32 and 13:32 off Horsham. They could not be CEPs because Horsham crew did not sign them. Throughout this period there were still a few late evening trains to Three Bridges worked by 508s.

As you say, in December 2008 the route switched to Southern and went back to hourly after 13 years of a half hourly service. Initially through to London but more recently just a shuttle from Redhill. The fortunes of this route have changed a lot in 30 years. Hourly, then two hourly, back to hourly, then half hourly and now back to hourly. Also three different regions/TOCs have provided the service.

The 508s were dire during the Connex era. Usually filthy and not very reliable. South Eastern turned them around. Ironically the final six were not long out of overhaul when they were withdrawn. On the last day I covered all four diagrams and all available track including the morning trip to Strood. It was a bitterly cold day with a heavy frost overnight but all four units were warm and performed faultlessly.

 

[yorksrob]

The suspension on them isn't too bad. Better than 455s for example. They were seen by Connex as a cheap and cheerful way to get rid of a few CEPs.

So a downgrade then.

 

[MatthewRead]

I must say I've lost track of all the changes. I remember 508s at Reigate, along with CEPs, NSE livery CIGs and 3582 even turned up. That was the VEP with the 4TC carriage.

The initial electric service in 1994 was hourly Three Bridges to Maidstone West. Initially it was always VEPs, one Central, two South Eastern if I recall correctly. In May 1995 they added the Victoria to Tunbridge Wells trains. This was when most diagrams switched to CEPs and I think South Eastern covered the whole service. The Tunbridge Wells trains went all sort of strange routes between Victoria and East Croydon but mainly via Stewarts Lane and Pouparts Jn. They only stopped at East Croydon, Redhill, Tonbridge and High Brooms. Peak trains ran from London Bridge. Other stops were added over the next few timetables and I think they switched to London Bridge all day. The peak Reigate trains were tied in with this service.

This is where I lose track. At some point, presumably September 2002, the South Eastern trains became part of the standard half hourly stopping service between London Bridge and Redhill, XX:03 to Maidstone West and XX:33 to Horsham. These were booked 508s but 3CEPs often substituted. South of Redhill, the path of what would have been the XX:03 London Bridge to Horsham was taken up by the Tunbridge Wells to Horsham train. The latter route was a mix of Central and South Eastern CIG/VEP units. One turn was booked a South Eastern CIG which did the 10:32 and 13:32 off Horsham. They could not be CEPs because Horsham crew did not sign them. Throughout this period there were still a few late evening trains to Three Bridges worked by 508s.

As you say, in December 2008 the route switched to Southern and went back to hourly after 13 years of a half hourly service. Initially through to London but more recently just a shuttle from Redhill. The fortunes of this route have changed a lot in 30 years. Hourly, then two hourly, back to hourly, then half hourly and now back to hourly. Also three different regions/TOCs have provided the service.

The 508s were dire during the Connex era. Usually filthy and not very reliable. South Eastern turned them around. Ironically the final six were not long out of overhaul when the were withdrawn. On the last day I covered all four diagrams and all available track including the morning trip to Strood. It was a bitterly cold day with a heavy frost overnight but all four units were warm and performed faultlessly.

508's first started running on those services from 1998 a total of 12 were acquired from Merseyrail!

 

[Bikeman78]

So a downgrade then.

Difficult to sell as an upgrade! No toilets, no first class. Less reliable. Pretty much summed up Connex to be be honest. On the plus side, they had no problem keeping time.

 

[JonathanH]

Difficult to sell as an upgrade! No toilets, no first class. Less reliable. Pretty much summed up Connex to be be honest. On the plus side, they had no problem keeping time.

They did have a bike area put in that consisted of taking a few seats out and building a low height chipboard 'pen' and an area for wheelchairs that just required taking out seats.

 

[Bikeman78]

508's first started running on those services from 1998 a total of 12 were acquired from Merseyrail!

Yes I think it was three diagrams London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells, three on Three Bridges to Maidstone West, two from Strood to Maidstone and two on the Sheerness branch.

 

[prod_pep]

Yes I think it was three diagrams London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells, three on Three Bridges to Maidstone West, two from Strood to Maidstone and two on the Sheerness branch.

Yes, that sounds about right for the beginning of the 508s' spell with Connex in August 1998.

As you say, it is very difficult to keep track of all the changes. You could well be right that in September 2002, the hourly London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells via Redhill service was diverted to Maidstone West and the Monday - Saturday daytime Three Bridges to Maidstone West service was withdrawn.

Thereafter, the 508 diagrams were two on the Sheerness branch and seven which did a mixture of London Bridge to Maidstone West and Medway Valley daytime duties, with the aforementioned London Bridge to Reigate duty and the evening Three Bridges work amidst these. The Maidstone West to Three Bridges service was Sunday only (and Monday - Saturday evenings) by 2002 and booked for 508s, but often slam-door stock substituted.

Looking at old photos, the 508-operated 1303 London Bridge departure was to Tunbridge Wells instead of Maidstone West by September 2005, so by this stage the service from London Bridge had reverted back to Tunbridge Wells and an hourly Strood to Paddock Wood service introduced throughout the day instead.

 

[davetheguard]

I seem to remember that in Thames Trains days there was one through working a day by Turbo to Three Bridges - first thing in the morning. Not sure if it continued under First Great Western/Link's tenure.

 

[JonathanH]

I seem to remember that in Thames Trains days there was one through working a day by Turbo to Three Bridges - first thing in the morning. Not sure if it continued under First Great Western/Link's tenure.

Yes, presumably this was knowledge retention in case the sidings at Gatwick Airport weren't available for reversal rather than any particularly helpful extension for passengers.