use HS2 classic compatible rolling stock on WCML South as well

[popeter45]

simple idea basicly
rather than 2 separate fleets for HS2 fleet and class 390 replacements just buy a larger order of HS2 stock and also use then on WCML into NR Euston, would require altering spec to HS2 train procurement for stuff like Tilting to enable WCML 125mph running but having a common fleet would reduce costs and enable mixing of roles better (e.g. if a WCML unit had issues at Glasgow could sub out with another unit that was planned for a HS2 run)

 

[gazthomas]

simple idea basicly
rather than 2 separate fleets for HS2 fleet and class 390 replacements just buy a larger order of HS2 stock and also use then on WCML into NR Euston, would require altering spec to HS2 train procurement for stuff like Tilting to enable WCML 125mph running but having a common fleet would reduce costs and enable mixing of roles better (e.g. if a WCML unit had issues at Glasgow could sub out with another unit that was planned for a HS2 run)

This means we don't take advantage of the enhanced loading gauge to increase space and therefore capacity of each train

 

[popeter45]

This means we don't take advantage of the enhanced loading gauge to increase space and therefore capacity of each train

im talking about the classic compatibles, not the captive stock

 

[edwin_m]

If tilting stock is still preferred on the southern WCML then it will have to be a different design because the classic compatibles won't tilt.

If tilting stock isn't needed then the classic compatibles could do the job, but it's probably going to be cheaper to order a design only suitable for 110mph or 125mph rather than one that can go nearly twice as fast. It's possible that a variant on the same design could be used, perhaps with less power and less sophisticated running gear.

 

[The Planner]

im talking about the classic compatibles, not the captive stock

Unlikely to be any captive stock, and the CC stock won't tilt.

 

[JonathanH]

Does class 390 replacement genuinely coincide with HS2 rolling stock being procured? Moreover, does this even need to be thought about now?

Assuming phase 2b of HS2 happens there will be all sorts of changes in rolling stock on the network including the possibility of spare 80x from the MML and ECML, changes to the type of rolling stock used on the classic XC network north of Birmingham.

The decision about 390 replacement stock needs to be considered in the light of loads of factors and current unknowns. The ability to switch trains at Glasgow between HS2 and WCML services is probably well towards the bottom of the list of considerations.

 

[JamesT]

Does class 390 replacement genuinely coincide with HS2 rolling stock being procured? Moreover, does this even need to be thought about now?

Assuming phase 2b of HS2 happens there will be all sorts of changes in rolling stock on the network including the possibility of spare 80x from the MML and ECML, changes to the type of rolling stock used on the classic XC network north of Birmingham.

The decision about 390 replacement stock needs to be considered in the light of loads of factors and current unknowns. The ability to switch trains at Glasgow between HS2 and WCML services is probably well towards the bottom of the list of considerations.

It very much depends on how well the Pendolinos are lasting. A normal expectation on lifespan for an EMU would be 40 years, so the oldest would only be half way through now. On the flip side some of the Eurostars were scrapped after little more than 20 years.

The West Coast franchise is currently set to run till 2031 which would seem the natural time to examine this. HS2 would hopefully have opened Phase 1, planning would be underway for the rolling stock needed for Phase 2. It might be that the WCML and HS2 parts of the franchise are split, which would lessen the benefits of a common set of rolling stock.

 

[AM9]

It very much depends on how well the Pendolinos are lasting. A normal expectation on lifespan for an EMU would be 40 years, so the oldest would only be half way through now. On the flip side some of the Eurostars were scrapped after little more than 20 years. ...

The Eurostars aren't EMUs, but even so, the demise of some of them coincided with the expansion of services into Europe where in many cases, the E300s weren't really compatible. Add to that the extremely complex nature of the multi-power supply options, multiple signal system installation and their constrained loading gauge which was no longer relevant, they were just deemed obsolescent. On a different scale, it was not unlike the early replacement of the original B86 and B89 DLR trains once the Bank tunnel was opened and an improved signalling system introduced. The trains were considered obsolescent in the DLR role.

... The West Coast franchise is currently set to run till 2031 which would seem the natural time to examine this. HS2 would hopefully have opened Phase 1, planning would be underway for the rolling stock needed for Phase 2. It might be that the WCML and HS2 parts of the franchise are split, which would lessen the benefits of a common set of rolling stock.

AIUI, the 390s are worked hard, are heavy and expensive to run and maintain, and aside from the voiciferous complains about their comfort levels by a few on here, are generally heavily loaded for much of their journeys. A more modern 125mph stock would be much more attractive to an operator and to NR (or its successor), - even if new trains were tilting types, as there has been considerable development globally in tilting technologies since the 390s were designed. Running high performance CC trains built for 200mph use would be a very wasteful exercise except in an emergency diversionary event. Of course enthusiasts would relish the chance to see the acceleration of such trains but I would expect their power draw to be limited (similar to the newer EMUs on 3rd rail services) as a busy WCML is unlikely provide sufficient current on the OLE for a sporty thrash even up to 125mph. So in reality, horses for courses would IMO likely be the order.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Post-HS2 I'm not convinced there will be need for tilt - the small loss of time would not be an issue on a timetable that is going to be less intensive and slower anyway. Something like 80x would be perfect for the role. Though I can see the benefits of this proposal too in terms of running a potentially more integrated timetable.

 

[EastisECML]

Maybe cross country and EMR inter city services could partially use HS2 with high speed cc trains as part of an 'HS2 Connect' service. For example if the Birmingham to Penzance and Cardiff lines were ever electrified the Cardiff to Nottingham service could use a connection from New Street onto HS2 and then branch off into Nottingham just before Toton.

And the Penzance/Plymouth - Edinburgh train could use the New Street connection onto HS2, come off it to serve Chesterfield and Sheffield, back on north of Sheffield and then a branch from the Leeds New Lane connecton into the existing station. Then back on to HS2 for the brief section to York.

For EMR services, with electrification and speed upgrades (possibly some by pass tracks) between London and Leicester trains could then join HS2 just before Toton (swapping with trains coming off to Nottingham) and run straight through to Leeds and/or go via Sheffield to Leeds. With one continuing to Newcastle to maintain 2 tph from Newcastle to Sheffield and at least 3 tph from Sheffield to Leeds via HS2 tracks.

 

[JonathanH]

Post-HS2 I'm not convinced there will be need for tilt - the small loss of time would not be an issue on a timetable that is going to be less intensive and slower anyway. Something like 80x would be perfect for the role. Though I can see the benefits of this proposal too in terms of running a potentially more integrated timetable.

I don't think there needs to be a new fleet on the WCML post HS2 at all. All they need to do is simply to move a number of 801s released off the ECML by HS2 and a change in priorities for services on that route to replace 390s working alongside the units currently being procured by Avanti.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it’s very likely that some services operated by HS2 stock will operate on the WCML south into Euston; indeed they are likely to do so before HS2 is even open. Once HS2 Phase 1/2a is fully open to Crewe, I suspect their use on WCML south will reduce, however.

 

[AM9]

Post-HS2 I'm not convinced there will be need for tilt - the small loss of time would not be an issue on a timetable that is going to be less intensive and slower anyway. Something like 80x would be perfect for the role. Though I can see the benefits of this proposal too in terms of running a potentially more integrated timetable.

I would agree with that, and the removal of any need to take the curved sections of the line at greater speeds than the 350s currently manage, will play against keeping the expensive to run Pendolinos in service. I doubt that anybody will suggest locking the tilt mechanism out of use as they are so heavy anyway.

 

[D365]

All they need to do is simply to move a number of 801s released off the ECML by HS2 and a change in priorities for services on that route to replace 390s working alongside the units currently being procured by Avanti.

Stations like Grantham, Newark and Retford deserve a far more frequent service, which could be enabled post-HS2. I don’t see any reason for these stations to not be served by Class 801s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of 80x, there are a load on order for North Wales and Liverpool services which will operate without tilt. This will provide for a lengthy real-world trial of whether tilt is actually needed or not.

 

[Energy]

Talking of 80x, there are a load on order for North Wales and Liverpool services which will operate without tilt. This will provide for a lengthy real-world trial of whether tilt is actually needed or not.

The EMUs are on order for services which have more frequent stops, a good trial as lots more services will be stopping post HS2.

After HS2 I think we will see more 80Xs for more frequently stopping services but some of the younger Pendolinos remain.

 

[D365]

After HS2 I think we will see more 80Xs for more frequently stopping services but some of the younger Pendolinos remain.

Younger Pendolinos? There are only four 390s which are significantly younger.

 

[Energy]

Younger Pendolinos? There are only four 390s which are significantly younger.

Let me rephrase, the Pendolinos in best condition.

 

[Ianno87]

Stations like Grantham, Newark and Retford deserve a far more frequent service, which could be enabled post-HS2. I don’t see any reason for these stations to not be served by Class 801s.

Would that need to be 801s for what is more an extended interurban service than true "Intercity"?

Something equivalent to a half-hourly 8/12 car Class 350 to Leeds (at 110mph) calling at principal stations, just like the Trent Valley service is now, and what the Corby service will become (with 360s).

801s would be wasted given they'd soend relatively little time above 110mph.

 

[The Planner]

I think it’s very likely that some services operated by HS2 stock will operate on the WCML south into Euston; indeed they are likely to do so before HS2 is even open. Once HS2 Phase 1/2a is fully open to Crewe, I suspect their use on WCML south will reduce, however.

Pretty much a dead cert from what I know, means you mileage accumulate and test even if HS2 infrastructure isn't ready.

Talking of 80x, there are a load on order for North Wales and Liverpool services which will operate without tilt. This will provide for a lengthy real-world trial of whether tilt is actually needed or not.

Except a lot of work is being looked at for raising PS speeds south of Weaver.

 

[D365]

801s would be wasted given they'd soend relatively little time above 110mph.

That's a strange argument to make, bearing in mind that (for example) the AT300s on the West Coast will spend very little time themselves above 110mph.

I don't see why stations north of Peterborough should lose their InterCity standard service, unless there is evidence to suggest that the catering service would be poorly used.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't see why stations north of Peterborough should lose their InterCity standard service, unless there is evidence to suggest that the catering service would be poorly used.

Because it's not an Intercity service anymore. It's an Interurban service fulfilling intermediate demand that just happens to start and end at two major cities, but without many folks travelling end-to-end (who'll be on HS2). Have stock that's better configured for passenger capacity, dwell times and acceleration instead.

 

[HSTEd]

Stations like Grantham, Newark and Retford deserve a far more frequent service, which could be enabled post-HS2. I don’t see any reason for these stations to not be served by Class 801s.

Two IEPs formations per hour composed of half sets each.

This gives one train per hour to each of Hull, York, Leeds and Lincoln.

It requires drastically fewer trains than the existing service pattern but noone really loses out on journeys that wont switch to HS2 anyway.

Because it's not an Intercity service anymore. It's an Interurban service fulfilling intermediate demand that just happens to start and end at two major cities, but without many folks travelling end-to-end (who'll be on HS2). Have stock that's better configured for passenger capacity, dwell times and acceleration instead.

Why are we gearing for capacity exactly?
There will be no shortage of space on a 2x5-car IEP train stopping Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, (Lincoln)/(Retford, Doncaster and York).

And you will struggle to get a faster accelerating unit than an IEP for much less tha the cost of an IEP.
And how much do you expect to improve dwell times?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you will struggle to get a faster accelerating unit than an IEP for much less tha the cost of an IEP.
And how much do you expect to improve dwell times?

80x aren't expensive trains, anyway, no doubt this is why they have been proving popular with TOCs as well as their flexibility and reliability. What was expensive was the ones built through the Intercity Express Programme, as that covered all the development costs in the lease charges. It's a bit like the way people see the cost of desktops and laptops to businesses from their outsourcers and go "wow, I could get that from Amazon for a third of the price" - the thing they miss is that the price includes support.