The possibility of additional (new build) Class 707s for Southeastern

[D365]

Continues from "Class 707s to Southeastern" discussion:

Here is a question can southeastern order more [Class 707] units if they wanted to?

One would hope so, as the Networkers ought to be due for replacement this decade. In terms of UK manufacturing, perhaps Siemens will have the capacity for a Desiro production line once their Goole facility is opened.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That’s what i was thinking. The networkers are probably going to be replaced in this decade I suspect, and 707’s were built not long ago and they could build a few more if southeastern requested them? Though a longer franchise extension would be required

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's a shame SE can't have a unified fleet (split into metro and main-line) like the TL 700's.

Although the Networker's aren't terrible (my personal experience...), I would vote for wholesale replacement of the fleet, and the 376's with something like the 707s. But they would need retrofitting with toilets, at least for medium distance work, e.g. to Ashford or Tunbridge Wells

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Continues from "Class 707s to Southeastern" discussion:



One would hope so, as the Networkers ought to be due for replacement this decade. In terms of UK manufacturing, perhaps Siemens will have the capacity for a Desiro production line once their Goole facility is opened.

Although sadly Siemens isn't really UK manufacturing. It would be nice to have an actual British train builder, however with this virus (and not to mention Brexit) I think the 40 years of "Britain doesn't need manufacturing" mindset might be finally on its way out.

 

[43096]

Although sadly Siemens isn't really UK manufacturing. It would be nice to have an actual British train builder, however with this virus (and not to mention Brexit) I think the 40 years of "Britain doesn't need manufacturing" mindset might be finally on its way out.

Who is an “actual British train builder” though? There isn’t one, and we should be buying the best trains for the job.

 

[Energy]

It's a shame SE can't have a unified fleet (split into metro and main-line) like the TL 700's.

Although the Networker's aren't terrible (my personal experience...), I would vote for wholesale replacement of the fleet, and the 376's with something like the 707s. But they would need retrofitting with toilets, at least for medium distance work, e.g. to Ashford or Tunbridge Wells

For SE I would go for 3 fleets, metro (707s), main line (375s and some 377s) and high speed (395s)

 

[Energy]

Who is an “actual British train builder” though? There isn’t one, and we should be buying the best trains for the job.

The closest is Bombardier, although they seem to be pretty busy at the moment.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

For SE I would go for 3 fleets, metro (707s), main line (375s and some 377s) and high speed (395s)

Yes I deliberately didn't mention the 395's as they have their own self-contained diagrams and work on HS1

 

[Domh245]

The closest is Bombardier, although they seem to be pretty busy at the moment.

Busy for now, but their order book is looking pretty empty after the current run.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How easy/difficult would it be to convert 707's to DOO along with the necessary resiting of DOO cameras on the platforms?

 

[Energy]

How easy/difficult would it be to convert 707's to DOO along with the necessary resiting of DOO cameras on the platforms?

Is SE already DOO? If not then it will be harder dealing with the unions than actually installing DOO.

 

[Domh245]

How easy/difficult would it be to convert 707's to DOO along with the necessary resiting of DOO cameras on the platforms?

I expect as simple as toggling the right mode in the trains TMS. They have onboard cameras and screens so would just use those rather than platform based equipment, surely?

Is SE already DOO? If not then it will be harder dealing with the unions than actually installing DOO.

The metro services are DOO

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is SE already DOO? If not then it will be harder dealing with the unions than actually installing DOO.

Yes SE is DOO but traditionally, metroland has been a ten-car railway and most of the Networkers are 4-car, whereas the 707s are 5-car.

The Networkers work either singly or in multiples of 4 + 4, or 4 + 4 + 2 or 4 + 4 + 4, whilst the 707s are either 5 or 10-car - the platform mounted DOO cameras might need resiting which would cause issues...

 

[43096]

Yes SE is DOO but traditionally, metroland has been a ten-car railway and most of the Networkers are 4-car, whereas the 707s are 5-car.

The Networkers work either singly or in multiples of 4 + 4, or 4 + 4 + 2 or 4 + 4 + 4, whilst the 707s are either 5 or 10-car - the platform mounted DOO cameras might need resiting which would cause issues...

The 707s were built with bodyside cameras for DOO so no need for resiting platform equipment.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 707s were built with bodyside cameras for DOO so no need for resisting platform equipment.

Fair enough

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Who is an “actual British train builder” though? There isn’t one, and we should be buying the best trains for the job.

Well that's exactly my point-there isn't. There was of course, however like British manufacturing in general, they disappeared.

 

[Class 466]

Yes SE is DOO but traditionally, metroland has been a ten-car railway and most of the Networkers are 4-car, whereas the 707s are 5-car.

The Networkers work either singly or in multiples of 4 + 4, or 4 + 4 + 2 or 4 + 4 + 4, whilst the 707s are either 5 or 10-car - the platform mounted DOO cameras might need resiting which would cause issues...

You appear to have forgotten the 36 5 car 376s that run on the metro currently...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You appear to have forgotten the 36 5 car 376s that run on the metro currently...

Yes of course...

 

[Ladder23]

a

The 707s were built with bodyside cameras for DOO so no need for resiting platform equipment.

are these cameras watched live from the driver to ensure the safety of people getting on/ off?

 

[MarkyT]

a

are these cameras watched live from the driver to ensure the safety of people getting on/ off?

Yes that's the latest way of doing it, rather than having infrastructure on the platforms. It's become more economic as the price of video equipment has come down and is probably easier to fix, maintain and protect from damage than the trackside kit on balance, as it comes home to the depot periodically. Of course you can't remove any trackside cameras, screens etc at any particular station untill all trains that can stop there have the onboard tech.

 

[AM9]

The 707s were built with bodyside cameras for DOO so no need for resiting platform equipment.

Would the cameras in the rearmost unit be available to the driver in a 10-car consist?

 

[43096]

Would the cameras in the rearmost unit be available to the driver in a 10-car consist?

I think we can be confident that was part of the specification.

 

[Aictos]

Would the cameras in the rearmost unit be available to the driver in a 10-car consist?

Seeing as Thameslink operate 12 car Class 700s daily in DOO mode I think we can confidently say yes that all DOO cameras would be available in a 10 car Class 707 consist as the only differences is the Class 700s have toilets, 1st Class and more horsepower per unit.

As to more Class 707s, how many would be needed to not only consider partial/full replacement of the Networker fleet but also bring extra capacity to futureproof the Metro services.

 

[Energy]

Seeing as Thameslink operate 12 car Class 700s daily in DOO mode I think we can confidently say yes that all DOO cameras would be available in a 10 car Class 707 consist as the only differences is the Class 700s have toilets, 1st Class and more horsepower per unit.

As to more Class 707s, how many would be needed to not only consider partial/full replacement of the Networker fleet but also bring extra capacity to futureproof the Metro services.

Well lets add some up:

376 replacement (cascade to other operators after refurb, probably Southern) - 36
465 replacement - 147
466 - Lots of the 466s are used to boost 2 * 465s to 10 cars, as 707s are 5 cars already this won't be needed so I'm not including them, if someone knows how many aren't used for this please say!

Total - 183, the capacity boost can be the 707s already coming

 

[Halish Railway]

Just for a little more speculation, if SE decide to replace all of the Networkers and 376s, would it be possible to order an extra carriage per unit to run a 12 carriage train?

Or would some platforms only be able to accommodate 10-carriage trains - Alternatively you could have a mix of 5 & 6 carriage 707s.

 

[Energy]

Just for a little more speculation, if SE decide to replace all of the Networkers and 376s, would it be possible to order an extra carriage per unit to run a 12 carriage train?

It would be a good idea to, more 12 car services are needed for more capacity.

 

[AM9]

Seeing as Thameslink operate 12 car Class 700s daily in DOO mode I think we can confidently say yes that all DOO cameras would be available in a 10 car Class 707 consist as the only differences is the Class 700s have toilets, 1st Class and more horsepower per unit. ...

Not necessarily so. The class 700s have cameras on all 8 or 12 cars because they are a single indivisable EMU (in passenger service). They can rescue of be rescued with other 700s but there would be no need for all the cameras to work in those circumstances. So my question relates to whether the inter unit interface carries the video signal, and whether the cab monitors are geared up to allow viewing on the second unit. Maybe somebody has absolute knowledge of whether this facility exists.

 

[Domh245]

Not necessarily so. The class 700s have cameras on all 8 or 12 cars because they are a single indivisable EMU (in passenger service). They can rescue of be rescued with other 700s but there would be no need for all the cameras to work in those circumstances. So my question relates to whether the inter unit interface carries the video signal, and whether the cab monitors are geared up to allow viewing on the second unit. Maybe somebody has absolute knowledge of whether this facility exists.

They're a single indivisible EMU in service but are formed of 2 half-units coupled in the middle. As for "absolute knowledge" - this should be sufficient (link to yt video of cab of cl 707 showing 10 door images with 5 images captioned with vehicle numbers from 707005 and 5 from 707003

 

[Aictos]

It would be a good idea to, more 12 car services are needed for more capacity.

At the same time, there is nothing stopping Siemens from building more 12 car Class 700s which could be split between Thameslink and SouthEastern which would A.) Enable existing 8 car diagrams to be uplifted to 12 car diagrams which means the released 8 cars can be used to provide extra capacity and B.) Provide much needed capacity for SE routes.

They're a single indivisible EMU in service but are formed of 2 half-units coupled in the middle. As for "absolute knowledge" - this should be sufficient (link to yt video of cab of cl 707 showing 10 door images with 5 images captioned with vehicle numbers from 707005 and 5 from 707003

Plus you have Class 387s that run as 12 cars so don't understand why the question needed to be asked in first place.

 

[Class 466]

Not necessarily so. The class 700s have cameras on all 8 or 12 cars because they are a single indivisable EMU (in passenger service). They can rescue of be rescued with other 700s but there would be no need for all the cameras to work in those circumstances. So my question relates to whether the inter unit interface carries the video signal, and whether the cab monitors are geared up to allow viewing on the second unit. Maybe somebody has absolute knowledge of whether this facility exists.

Well given 377s built in 2000 have that ability, surely it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that 707s can do just the same...