Promise to Pay - Is it valid on Merseyrail

[furlong]

Would you believe it? Two rail companies seemingly arguing between themselves leaving the poor passenger caught in the middle of the contradictory information they're giving out? Sounds like there are faults on both sides - Merseyrail might not like it, but Northern's actions can be binding on them (as some Penalty Fares exclusions depend on the situation at the start of the journey), while Merseyrail is probably right to highlight some of the implementation flaws in Northern's Promise to Pay invention which it seems to be in no hurry to fix. A better answer might have drawn its conclusions by reference to how the company interprets the penalty fares regulations.

 

[WesternLancer]

So I have received another reply from Merseyrail and I quote the relevant section ...

"We understand that all Northern services serving any of our stations do have a member of staff that can issue tickets- and you had then passed through 2 of our stations where a ticket could have been purchased, we certainly do not wish to cause any inconvenience to any customer which is why the Revenue Protection Officer acted as they did. Our Area Revenue Protection Manager has spoken to her colleagues at Northern, who confirm that the promise to pay permit is a Northern only product, unlike the separate permit to travel you refer to, and is not valid for wider journeys on the national rail network be it with ourselves or other train operators. I understand that Northern are looking at the relevant wording on the ticket so customers are fully aware of the validity of this ticket.

As such we will continue to remind customers that this ticket is not valid on our network and that a Penalty Fare may be issued in these circumstances".

So according to Merseyrail the "Promise to Pay" is not valid on their network and I do have to break my journey .. probably at Kirkby as this is the first interchange station where I can purchase a ticket. However, this station also has a connection time of 6 minutes from Northern to Merseyrail and it is unlikely that i will meet that connection .. even on the occasions that the Northern service runs to time.

Is it now a referral to the Ombudsman .. or do I just live with a fragmented policy and potential delays to my commute??

What is the 'democratic accountability' channel for Merseryrail? - do they report to the Metro Mayor Steve Rotherham? (who of course has been proactively campaigning for Northern to be 'brought back into public control'
https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about/corporate-information/
Looks like they are scrutinized and accountable to this Board of Cllrs
https://moderngov.merseytravel.gov.uk/mgCommitteeDetails.aspx?ID=362

If you are really lucky one of them might be your own local councillor...if so I'd rock up to their surgery and get them to spend soem time listening to why this is so crazy and press them on what they are going to do about it.

If they are not your local Councillor, then go and see whoever is (do you live in Rainsford, which is in St Helens Council area? I see there are several S Helen's Cllrs on the Cttee) as it is their job to hassle their colleagues from the same council who represent that council's citizens on this governance Board, to deliver a system that works for their citizens. I bet they get precious few representation from citizens about this sort of thing so they should be diligently able to do this for you. You might have to explain to them what it's all about - but their job is to advocate and represent. They could set to on the task.

It seems to me the accountability channel is:

Merseyrail - Merseytravel - City Region Combined Authrity (CRCA) - CRCA Transport Comittee Members (Councillors) - CRCA Cllrs to their council - that council to its citizens ie you

The role of the Committee is to undertake transport and travel policy functions on behalf of the Combined Authority, together with certain delegated functions in relation to transport and travel, the development of funding proposals and oversight of Merseytravel as the Passenger Transport Executive and Executive Body for the Combined Authority.

A good councillor would take this to the top and get a robust answer.

But I'd also copy all that to your MP because they need to get DfT to require Northern and Merseytravel to work together on this too (as does Mayor Rotherham)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see an obvious other answer than that the OP had no need to delay their journey at Kirkby (as the minimum connection was met), but is not entitled to a connection any tighter than the minimum connection time at Liverpool Central and therefore should have purchased a ticket there.

In essence, what you're entitled to is what the NRE Journey Planner will give you. If you manage to do better ("minus moves" and the likes, to use a bit of old basher terminology ), that's just good luck. If you want to increase your chance of good luck, use a method of payment accepted at your origin, i.e. card in this case (e- and m-tickets are not available for any journey involving Merseyrail - yet another reason why they need a clout for not playing the RDG game).

However, that is a typically arrogant Merseyrail response and they really do need to wind their neck in. Maybe they've been giving Avanti lessons?

 

[joke2711]

I can't see an obvious other answer than that the OP had no need to delay their journey at Kirkby (as the minimum connection was met), but is not entitled to a connection any tighter than the minimum connection time at Liverpool Central and therefore should have purchased a ticket there.

In essence, what you're entitled to is what the NRE Journey Planner will give you. If you manage to do better ("minus moves" and the likes, to use a bit of old basher terminology ), that's just good luck. If you want to increase your chance of good luck, use a method of payment accepted at your origin, i.e. card in this case (e- and m-tickets are not available for any journey involving Merseyrail - yet another reason why they need a clout for not playing the RDG game).

However, that is a typically arrogant Merseyrail response and they really do need to wind their neck in. Maybe they've been giving Avanti lessons?

I concur about the arrogance .. to suggest that Kirkby is an opportunity to pay is simply not true.
I might take the route suggested by @WesternLancer and see if I can get a local politician to take up the case. I don't actually live in Rainford itself but do live in the same electoral constituency.
All I asked was for Merseyail to confirm that I would not encounter any problems if the situation arises again, but they are adamant that in future a penalty fare could be issued.
To suggest that Northern trains all have guards that sell tickets is another incorrect statement. Whilst this has improved of late (as has punctuality) I would say that at best we are at 60% of services the guard walks through.

 

[WesternLancer]

I concur about the arrogance .. to suggest that Kirkby is an opportunity to pay is simply not true.
I might take the route suggested by @WesternLancer and see if I can get a local politician to take up the case. I don't actually live in Rainford itself but do live in the same electoral constituency.
All I asked was for Merseyail to confirm that I would not encounter any problems if the situation arises again, but they are adamant that in future a penalty fare could be issued.
To suggest that Northern trains all have guards that sell tickets is another incorrect statement. Whilst this has improved of late (as has punctuality) I would say that at best we are at 60% of services the guard walks through.

Yes, you need to start with the local Councillor who actaully represnts you

Find them via this (annoyingly does not have a ward postcode finder)
http://moderngov.sthelens.gov.uk/mgFindMember.aspx
But this does
https://mapit.mysociety.org/

They are often very happy to help - only problem is that they may not know much about transport if it's not their 'thing' - in which case you need to explain to them that 'Cllrs XYZ, their colleagues on the council, who I am sure you know, represent the council vis a vis MerseyTravel - and that you wish them to pursue this with their colleagues, asking them to take it up at a decision making level' - you could copy it all to your MP too.

My experience is that local government internal protocols means that staff are very sensitive about inquiries from councillors or MPs and usually insist that they are considered / checked at a senior level.

So it may be worth it.

 

[joke2711]

Many thanks for this .. on checking the list one of my local Councillors is on the Combined Authority Transport Committee so I think I will start at that point .. will update any further developments

 

[WesternLancer]

Many thanks for this .. on checking the list one of my local Councillors is on the Combined Authority Transport Committee so I think I will start at that point .. will update any further developments

Bingo! I really thought that was a long shot but the fact that your own councillor (who ultimately wants your personal vote) is actually a member of the Committee puts you in a good position to lobby them. I'd be making an appointment at their surgery to go and have a chat with them about it all and seeing if they were up for constructively pursuing this.

A Cllr on such a committee can be very influential over matters where the authority has an element of decision making discretion - both with the Committee Chair and with the employed officers (staff) at a senior level - both formally and informally. EG staff often know that for senior appointments part of the interview processes for jobs are carried out by panels with the Councillors from the Committee on them for example, which concentrates the mind of course. Not that this is the only reason they would have influence of course - but it's that someone who appears on a party leaflet shoved through your letter box once in a while is actually probably doing a lot of behind the scenes work and this is a way to engage with them over that.

 

[Djgr]

Well to be fair to Merseyrail, it must be an absolute nightmare dealing with Northern in recent years at their various touch points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well to be fair to Merseyrail, it must be an absolute nightmare dealing with Northern in recent years at their various touch points.

Every time I hear something about Merseyrail and ticketing I genuinely wonder how long they can stay in RDG/RSP rather than spinning out as totally separate more like Metrolink. They clearly have no interest in being part of the National Rail network at all.

 

[gray1404]

But of course non of us want that. Through ticketing and the protection that gives, plus the ability to use a combination of tickets with a starting/finishing point on Merseyrail. Plus there are many long distance journeys journeys that can be meet at different points on their network.

 

[joke2711]

Well to be fair to Merseyrail, it must be an absolute nightmare dealing with Northern in recent years at their various touch points.

To be fair to Merseyrail ... what about being fair to the Passenger who has followed process and gets threatened with Penalty Fares.
I am sure that Merseyrail, especially at Moorfields have been having a field day in their issue of Penalty Fares with many going unchallenged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to Merseyrail ... what about being fair to the Passenger who has followed process and gets threatened with Penalty Fares.
I am sure that Merseyrail, especially at Moorfields have been having a field day in their issue of Penalty Fares with many going unchallenged.

True. Northern's misdeeds are an internal railway issue and they should not be reflecting on passengers. Too often these days passengers are losing out because of an internal problem, e.g. members of staff who do not have the authority to give permission to travel doing so, which should be a disciplinary issue, not a passenger one.

 

[scrapy]

True. Northern's misdeeds are an internal railway issue and they should not be reflecting on passengers. Too often these days passengers are losing out because of an internal problem, e.g. members of staff who do not have the authority to give permission to travel doing so, which should be a disciplinary issue, not a passenger one.

Most of the time it should be a training issue rather than a disciplinary one.

Although maybe it should be a disciplinary issue for the management who haven't provided the relevant training or follow ups

 

[gray1404]

The funder mental issue here is Merseyrail not understanding the principles of the Penalty Fare scheme and regulations. The customer had not yet had an opportunity to purchase. Merseyrail agree there wasn't enough time at Kirby.

On arrival at Liverpool Central the customer should not have even been told they could have been issued with a penalty fare. There was no valid basis for issuing one. The worst the RPI could have done is insisted the OP when to the ticket office before their next train.

I do think that Merseyrail need to be reported to the DfT and ORR to have their Penalty Fares scheme suspended as they are not operating it correctly.

Southport, Ormskirk, Kirby, Hunts Cross, Liverpool South Parkway, Bidston, Liverpool Lime Street, Ellesmere Port and Chester. There are a lot of opportunities for customers to be legitimately travelling on their network having started their journey with another operator and yet to have opportunity to purchase. The threat of a penalty fare should not be the default.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The ticket office at Ellesmere Port is not always open when Northern trains arrive and the TVM, I would assume, does not sell through tickets from other destinations.

 

[philthetube]

Probably a stupid question but are Merseyrail capable of selling tickets from destinations off their network? I know there are other thingh they cannot/willnot do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably a stupid question but are Merseyrail capable of selling tickets from destinations off their network? I know there are other thingh they cannot/willnot do.

Yes.

 

[Vespa]

You could buy the ticket online and save it to your phone if needed.

Its an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could buy the ticket online and save it to your phone if needed.

Its an option.

Actually, you can't. Merseyrail will not support M- or E-tickets for any of their flows, other than an odd option to buy their Daysavers online.

This really needs fixing and e-ticket acceptance to be mandated on all flows as a condition of being a member of RSP or whatever it's called this week.

 

[Vespa]

Actually, you can't. Merseyrail will not support M- or E-tickets for any of their flows, other than an odd option to buy their Daysavers online.

This really needs fixing and e-ticket acceptance to be mandated on all flows as a condition of being a member of RSP or whatever it's called this week.

Has a look and you're right, I find this very strange as they are part TOC ticketing scheme, this needs to be rectified precisely for this situation.
I have booked tickets to my phone and screenshot and downloaded it to use.
Never had an issue.

This is very strange.

The dayrover is not that expensive, from I gather it can only be used off peak times.

 

[HSP 2]

The dayrover is not that expensive, from I gather it can only be used off peak times.

There are two rovers on Merseyside, the first one is.
Merseyrail Day Saver,
Not valid 06;31 - 09;29 Mon - Fri
Valid any time weekends and bank holidays
Cost £5.50
Merseyrail only.

Mersey Rail Saveaway
Not valid 06;31 - 09;29 Mon - Fri.
Valid any time weekends and bank holidays
Cost £5.55
Also valid on most buses and ferries
Valid on most TOCs
But not Avanti.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Also on Merseyrail's website they state that National Railcards can be used for purchases on singles and returns any time after 10am and the £12 fare applies before it. However there is no time restrictions on the Disabled Railcard.

Surely they wouldn't be charging the £12 fare on Disabled Railcards as well?

 

[Vespa]

There are two rovers on Merseyside, the first one is.
Merseyrail Day Saver,
Not valid 06;31 - 09;29 Mon - Fri
Valid any time weekends and bank holidays
Cost £5.50
Merseyrail only.

Mersey Rail Saveaway
Not valid 06;31 - 09;29 Mon - Fri.
Valid any time weekends and bank holidays
Cost £5.55
Also valid on most buses and ferries
Valid on most TOCs
But not Avanti.

I've checked out different configurations to different destinations from Chester to Liverpool Central, West Kirby or New Brighton.

Trainsplit from Chester one way, No railcard is £6.90p with disabled railcard £4.45p.

So the Merseyrail saveaway is actually good value at £5.55p even without a railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've checked out different configurations to different destinations from Chester to Liverpool Central, West Kirby or New Brighton.

Trainsplit from Chester one way, No railcard is £6.90p with disabled railcard £4.45p.

So the Merseyrail saveaway is actually good value at £5.55p even without a railcard.

That's in the background of them having only Anytime Day Singles and Returns for walk-up fares. Previously there were Off Peaks too which were abolished.

There is strength in what they've done (it's very much like what the Germans do and is very simple indeed) but the loss of Railcard discounts was unnecessary and to me is taking the mick.

But it's the lack of e-ticketing that riles me more. It's highly customer unfriendly not to offer it and there is really no reason not to.

 

[island]

But it's the lack of e-ticketing that riles me more. It's highly customer unfriendly not to offer it and there is really no reason not to.

Reasons not to include the cost of equipping staff and ticket barriers with the facilities to read e-tickets.

 

[Skie]

Is there no longer an unpaid fares window onto the gated area? There always used to be.

The m-to-gos were built with the windows (apart from Old Hall Street), but they’re piled high with junk and posters so obviously not in use.

Actually, you can't. Merseyrail will not support M- or E-tickets for any of their flows, other than an odd option to buy their Daysavers online.

Which is strange because I’ve seen an email from their “head of customer experience“ in April 2019 to confirm that digital/ e tickets are valid on the Merseyrail network!

 

[Vespa]

Merseyrail is obligated to honour a valid ticket regardless of medium, otherwise how are you able to buy an eticket or m ticket through train line or trainsplit ?

 

[island]

You aren’t, I think. If you book a ticket to or from a Miseryrail station it will only fulfil as ticket on demand or by post.

 

[Skie]

You aren’t, I think. If you book a ticket to or from a Miseryrail station it will only fulfil as ticket on demand or by post.

When e-tickets rolled out nationwide they were an option for Merseyrail flows. I and some colleagues used them, I never had an issue but some colleagues had ‘encounters’ with gate line staff who claimed they weren’t valid.

We raised this directly with Merseyrail and our travel agent. Our travel agent disabled e-tickets on those flows whilst Merseyrail (once past the initial junior numpty) bumped it up and said mobile and e-tickets were perfectly valid.

Our travel agent never re-enabled the flows (and seems they may have caused them to be disabled for not just us!) but it does mean we get to keep ticket machines in offices so we’re kinda happy with that result

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail is obligated to honour a valid ticket regardless of medium, otherwise how are you able to buy an eticket or m ticket through train line or trainsplit ?

You can't. E-ticket and M-ticket fulfilment are blocked for all journeys involving Merseyrail.