What if Merseyrail left RSP?

[Fawkes Cat]

Actually, you can't. Merseyrail will not support M- or E-tickets for any of their flows, other than an odd option to buy their Daysavers online.

This really needs fixing and e-ticket acceptance to be mandated on all flows as a condition of being a member of RSP or whatever it's called this week.

I'm forking this off from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/promise-to-pay-is-it-valid-on-merseyrail.198880/page-3 as it's a point that perhaps needs looking at separately. For clarity, in this context, 'Merseyrail' is the TOC - that is, the Northern and Wirral lines.

So what would be the consequences of Merseyrail left (or was thrown out of) RSP? Most obviously, it seems to me that through ticketing to/from Merseyrail would cease. Consequent to this
- Merseyrail would not share any revenue from Merseyrail journeys with anyone else;
- neither would Merseyrail receive any revenue from journeys starting/ending off Merseyrail (and including a Merseyrail element) but from tickets sold by someone else (because no such ticket could exist);
- travellers would need to rebook when they entered/left Merseyrail (so the OP in the thread that I've forked this from would definitely have to get a new ticket when they reached Kirkby from Rainford en route to West Kirby).

From time to time, it's suggested here that Merseyrail should be flung out of RSP as punishment for not playing nicely at selling National Rail tickets. But on the basis of the consequences above, I don't see that Merseyrail would actually suffer. If anyone suffered it would be people travelling partly on Merseyrail and partly on the rest of the railway system (a group which in normal times includes me as a commuter from Bootle to Manchester).

So is threatening to chuck Merseyrail out actually to Merseyrail's advantage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My personal take is that there should be more standardisation, for instance all TOCs who are members should be mandated to issue and accept standard e-tickets, and should be required to support ToD for as long as it remains in existence. They should also accept Railcards on all their normal products, and not use dedicated products like their day tickets to work around this (I'm aware PTE products are an exception, but the Merseyrail Day Saver is not a PTE product, it's a TOC product - and it doesn't even follow the standard issue process as it isn't issued as a Day Ranger because Merseyrail found it too much effort to reconfigure their TVMs to issue those). And yes, I believe they should be forced out if they do not do this. There would be a downside to being forced out - a loss of commission on through ticket sales from their ticket offices.

The problem is that Merseyrail is primarily a north-south network, and there are a lot of east-west journeys where there are Permitted Routes that go both ways. For instance, if you live on the Ormskirk, Kirkby or Southport line you can go to Manchester either way, and it's often convenient to go one way out and one way back, which is a problem if you lose through ticketing. That said, if single-fare pricing was implemented that would also solve the problem - just buy singles each way. Single-fare pricing is a solution to many, many ticketing issues like this.

 

[S&CLER]

My personal take is that there should be more standardisation, for instance all TOCs who are members should be mandated to issue and accept standard e-tickets, and should be required to support ToD for as long as it remains in existence. They should also accept Railcards on all their normal products, and not use dedicated products like their day tickets to work around this (I'm aware PTE products are an exception, but the Merseyrail Day Saver is not a PTE product, it's a TOC product - and it doesn't even follow the standard issue process as it isn't issued as a Day Ranger because Merseyrail found it too much effort to reconfigure their TVMs to issue those). And yes, I believe they should be forced out if they do not do this. There would be a downside to being forced out - a loss of commission on through ticket sales from their ticket offices.

The problem is that Merseyrail is primarily a north-south network, and there are a lot of east-west journeys where there are Permitted Routes that go both ways. For instance, if you live on the Ormskirk, Kirkby or Southport line you can go to Manchester either way, and it's often convenient to go one way out and one way back, which is a problem if you lose through ticketing. That said, if single-fare pricing was implemented that would also solve the problem - just buy singles each way. Single-fare pricing is a solution to many, many ticketing issues like this.

As I recall, the last day return ticket I bought from Southport to Manchester was marked "via Wigan"; but you are probably right that from intermediate stations on the Southport line you can, however, travel via Hunts Cross if it's more convenient. I haven't worked out the point from which this route becomes the shortest mileage, but in view of the numerous stops it probably is hardly ever quicker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I recall, the last day return ticket I bought from Southport to Manchester was marked "via Wigan"; but you are probably right that from intermediate stations on the Southport line you can, however, travel via Hunts Cross if it's more convenient. I haven't worked out the point from which this route becomes the shortest mileage, but in view of the numerous stops it probably is hardly ever quicker.

To my slight surprise all Southport-Wigan Stations tickets are routed Any Permitted:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Though it's more of a thing from the Ormskirk line, where there are a load of choices for Wigan/Manchester (via Preston, via the Burscoughs, via Kirkby, via Liverpool, via South Parkway/Hunts X) none of which really has any considerable advantage (unless it's Sunday when the first three are out).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The problem is that Merseyrail is primarily a north-south network, and there are a lot of east-west journeys where there are Permitted Routes that go both ways. For instance, if you live on the Ormskirk, Kirkby or Southport line you can go to Manchester either way, and it's often convenient to go one way out and one way back, which is a problem if you lose through ticketing.

This would be a problem for passengers. Would it be a problem for Merseyrail?

(And yes, I know I am quoting selectively. For completeness I note that M'rail would lose commission on tickets sold for off-M'Rail journeys.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would be a problem for passengers. Would it be a problem for Merseyrail?

No.

(And yes, I know I am quoting selectively. For completeness I note that M'rail would lose commission on tickets sold for off-M'Rail journeys.)

That commission must matter to them, otherwise I doubt they would have agreed with all the other TOCs that set fares onto their network not to make them fulfillable as e-tickets. There isn't, that I've seen, a single one.

 

[Llandudno]

Surely we should be making it easier for passengers to use public transport not creating more complicated barriers.

Personally I think it is ridiculous that you can’t buy a ticket from any GB station to include travel on Greater Manchester’s Metrolink (apart from Central Zone). Surely a simple supplement of say, £3 would suffice?

It seems odd that you can buy a Manchester Plusbus but no Metrolink add on!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely we should be making it easier for passengers to use public transport not creating more complicated barriers.

Personally I think it is ridiculous that you can’t buy a ticket from any GB station to include travel on Greater Manchester’s Metrolink (apart from Central Zone). Surely a simple supplement of say, £3 would suffice?

It seems odd that you can buy a Manchester Plusbus but no Metrolink add on!

The layout of Metrolink (as distinct from Merseyrail) doesn't really lend itself to the kind of journeys discussed in the Merseyrail example. This being the case, I'm not sure the adoption of contactless payment hasn't solved this by just removing the inconvenience of rebooking.

 

[Llandudno]

But you can use Plusbus on trams in:

Sheffield
Nottingham
Wolverhampton
Blackpool
Birmingham
Edinburgh

But not in Manchester!

 

[Fokx]

Surely we should be making it easier for passengers to use public transport not creating more complicated barriers.

Personally I think it is ridiculous that you can’t buy a ticket from any GB station to include travel on Greater Manchester’s Metrolink (apart from Central Zone). Surely a simple supplement of say, £3 would suffice?

You can with TPE if you buy from a TPE office or conductor, but I’m pretty sure it just adds the price of the metrolink ticket to your fare, so there is only a time saving benefit rather than a cost saving one.

For example if someone wanted to travel on the new Trafford Centre Line you could sell them a:
Stockport to Metrolink Zone 1-3
Or outside of the tfgm area it would appear as:
Leeds to GM Metrolink Zone 1-3

Station names do also appear on the ticket selling app eg. Bury (Metrolink) but I’m not sure if we can sell these anymore with TFGM moving to a zonal fare system

 

[davetheguard]

But you can use Plusbus on trams in:

Sheffield
Nottingham
Wolverhampton
Blackpool
Birmingham
Edinburgh

But not in Manchester!

I've just learnt something that could in future prove to be very useful, thanks Llandudno! I had had no expectation that you could use a Plusbus ticket on a tram. Now I know about it, I agree with you that it not applying in Manchester is a shame.

 

[Llandudno]

I've just learnt something that could in future prove to be very useful, thanks Llandudno! I had had no expectation that you could use a Plusbus ticket on a tram. Now I know about it, I agree with you that it not applying in Manchester is a shame.

Most railcard discounts are applied to Plusbus add ons as well!

 

[Ianno87]

My personal take is that there should be more standardisation, for instance all TOCs who are members should be mandated to issue and accept standard e-tickets, and should be required to support ToD for as long as it remains in existence. They should also accept Railcards on all their normal products, and not use dedicated products like their day tickets to work around this (I'm aware PTE products are an exception, but the Merseyrail Day Saver is not a PTE product, it's a TOC product - and it doesn't even follow the standard issue process as it isn't issued as a Day Ranger because Merseyrail found it too much effort to reconfigure their TVMs to issue those). And yes, I believe they should be forced out if they do not do this. There would be a downside to being forced out - a loss of commission on through ticket sales from their ticket offices.

The problem is that Merseyrail is primarily a north-south network, and there are a lot of east-west journeys where there are Permitted Routes that go both ways. For instance, if you live on the Ormskirk, Kirkby or Southport line you can go to Manchester either way, and it's often convenient to go one way out and one way back, which is a problem if you lose through ticketing. That said, if single-fare pricing was implemented that would also solve the problem - just buy singles each way. Single-fare pricing is a solution to many, many ticketing issues like this.

A good example is that journeys like Bolton - Wigan - Kirkby - Liverpool are highly convenient (and just as fast as heading via Huyton)

Passengers lose routeing flexibility.

Merseyrail would lose its slice of the Bolton-Wigan-Liverpool fares revenue.

 

[S&CLER]

To my slight surprise all Southport-Wigan Stations tickets are routed Any Permitted:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Though it's more of a thing from the Ormskirk line, where there are a load of choices for Wigan/Manchester (via Preston, via the Burscoughs, via Kirkby, via Liverpool, via South Parkway/Hunts X) none of which really has any considerable advantage (unless it's Sunday when the first three are out).

Looking at BRfares.com for Southport to Manchester stations, I see that the differences in price between Any Permitted and Via Wigan fares are trivial, often less than £1. I suppose the booking clerk at SOP just gave me the cheapest. I knew one person who used to use his Merseytravel pass to go to Newton le Willows, buying a ticket from there to Manchester at Southport. I often buy a day return to Parbold and a GM Conc Wayfarer, since it allows me to go to, say, Broadbottom, walk to, for example, Mossley and return from there. It's valid on the tram too, of course, and I could if I wished use it to come back via Newton le Willows, which I have done in times of disruption. Unfortunately on the CLC route there's a gap between where the Wayfarer ends and Hough Green, where my Merseytravel pass starts.

 

[markymark2000]

Merseyrail really need to sort their ticketing structure out and I agree with some calls that they should be held account for not working like other TOCs. You can't pick up tickets booked online at any Merseyrail TVM (making it harder for people making longer distance journeys). Secondly, they have a self contained network so I can't see why even network mobile tickets couldn't be introduced or put more on the smartcards (previous Walrus cards) to get paper tickets used less. Tap in, Tap Off should also be easy to introduce for network only fares.

A final downside of Merseyrail being a RSP is that outside of their area, they don't care meaning the Ellesmere Port line can be left with sub standard service and Chester is dropped as well for big events. The only reason Chester is kept most of the time is because it's the busiest line. Look at the Giants event and Christmas night trains for example and Hooton is the furthest they go. Merseyrail I think look for reasons to shaft Ellesmere Port. It's certainly an inconvenience to the network in the managements eyes. If Merseyrail was a normal franchise, I don't think they would get away with running services as they do.

I would like to see Merseyrail become a franchise including the City Lines as I believe this would improve the investment in existing stations and I think improve the overall experience for customers. I will always avoid Merseyrail if I can because of how poor they are.

 

[Llandudno]

Merseyrail really need to sort their ticketing structure out and I agree with some calls that they should be held account for not working like other TOCs. You can't pick up tickets booked online at any Merseyrail TVM (making it harder for people making longer distance journeys). Secondly, they have a self contained network so I can't see why even network mobile tickets couldn't be introduced or put more on the smartcards (previous Walrus cards) to get paper tickets used less. Tap in, Tap Off should also be easy to introduce for network only fares.

A final downside of Merseyrail being a RSP is that outside of their area, they don't care meaning the Ellesmere Port line can be left with sub standard service and Chester is dropped as well for big events. The only reason Chester is kept most of the time is because it's the busiest line. Look at the Giants event and Christmas night trains for example and Hooton is the furthest they go. Merseyrail I think look for reasons to shaft Ellesmere Port. It's certainly an inconvenience to the network in the managements eyes. If Merseyrail was a normal franchise, I don't think they would get away with running services as they do.

I would like to see Merseyrail become a franchise including the City Lines as I believe this would improve the investment in existing stations and I think improve the overall experience for customers. I will always avoid Merseyrail if I can because of how poor they are.

I guess it depends who you are comparing Merseyrail with ...Northern?

 

[markymark2000]

I guess it depends who you are comparing Merseyrail with ...Northern?

I prefer Northern. The services into Chester are generally punctual, guards come through and ask for tickets and are helpful. Very rarely have any issues with Northern.
Some of Northerns services elsewhere might be bad but they get held account for them by MPs and the dictators of the combined authorities (Sorry, I meant Metro Mayors). Merseyrail isn't held accountable when it provides shoddy services because it's publically ran and Labour members daren't slate anything which is publically ran.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Merseyrail made some very poor choices about the Giants (endorsed by the PTE), however I think otherwise they are quite operationally competent. My main concern about them is regard to their free-for-all on ticketing.

 

[clagmonster]

The layout of Metrolink (as distinct from Merseyrail) doesn't really lend itself to the kind of journeys discussed in the Merseyrail example. This being the case, I'm not sure the adoption of contactless payment hasn't solved this by just removing the inconvenience of rebooking.

Oldham is an example on Metrolink that can be accessed by two routes for a longer journey, similarly to how, say, Bootle can be accessed from the wider network via Southport or Liverpool. Presumably a ticket to all the valid GM Metrolink Zones would be valid by either route, so I suppose the system could be adapted for Merseyrail. Not sure why you would want to though, as you would lose Railcard discounts and increase the fares for long distance passengers onto the network, things which seem to have been largely forgotten around Manchester.

 

[markymark2000]

My main concern about them is regard to their free-for-all on ticketing.

Which could be solved if the guards went through and checked tickets. It's mainly since the strike action. Guards, if you see them, just walk through the train and do not interact with passengers so there is no active deterrant. Quite a few times I have seen revenue staff board the train and then just get off a few stops later not checking tickets, just chatting (I have seen this on multiple occasions).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oldham is an example on Metrolink that can be accessed by two routes for a longer journey, similarly to how, say, Bootle can be accessed from the wider network via Southport or Liverpool. Presumably a ticket to all the valid GM Metrolink Zones would be valid by either route, so I suppose the system could be adapted for Merseyrail. Not sure why you would want to though, as you would lose Railcard discounts and increase the fares for long distance passengers onto the network, things which seem to have been largely forgotten around Manchester.

The difference with Oldham is that it doesn't really provide multiple routes to a key destination in the same way - have a nose at a North West rail map and you'll see what I mean. You can get it it from both ends, but there are few reasons why you would, and because of the layout of the lines you could just end your rail journey short there if you needed to.

Which could be solved if the guards went through and checked tickets. It's mainly since the strike action. Guards, if you see them, just walk through the train and do not interact with passengers so there is no active deterrant. Quite a few times I have seen revenue staff board the train and then just get off a few stops later not checking tickets, just chatting (I have seen this on multiple occasions).

Sorry, by "free for all" I didn't mean a lack of revenue protection, I meant them doing their own thing.

 

[clagmonster]

The difference with Oldham is that it doesn't really provide multiple routes to a key destination in the same way - have a nose at a North West rail map and you'll see what I mean. You can get it it from both ends, but there are few reasons why you would, and because of the layout of the lines you could just end your rail journey short there if you needed to.

I'd have thought that Leeds, or for that matter most of the Eastern Region to Oldham could equally be done via either Manchester or Rochdale. I can't imagine that the flows enormous, much as the likes of Bootle look mainly to Liverpool Oldham looks mainly to Manchester, but it is a case. I do think Metrolink is probably a good example of the sort of thing Merseyrail Electrics would end up like in ticketing terms if they left RSP and I don't think it is a good thing for people travelling beyond the big city.


A passenger travelling Manchester to Bootle could get a ticket to Southport and going out via Liverpool end their outward journey short in just the way you describe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A passenger travelling Manchester to Bootle could get a ticket to Southport and going out via Liverpool end their outward journey short in just the way you describe.

Fair point. Wouldn't necessarily work on the Ormskirk line, though.

 

[markymark2000]

Sorry, by "free for all" I didn't mean a lack of revenue protection, I meant them doing their own thing.

Ahh, fair enough. I agree with you on that as well.