Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[yorksrob]

I think the reality is that in spite of the protestations of some on here, they will just have to come up with a better plan than "people reliant on public transport aren't allowed to travel for a year"

 

[bramling]

I think the reality is that in spite of the protestations of some on here, they will just have to come up with a better plan than "people reliant on public transport aren't allowed to travel for a year"

Trouble is no one has yet come up with such a plan. How are you going to guarantee social distancing on something like a 150?

Likelihood is if I get on a train and it’s full of families travelling on jollies such that I can’t get my 2 metres, I will be turning round and heading home, and forget about all the overtime and juggling myself and others are currently doing to cover key roles. Many of my colleagues will do exactly the same. There will then be no train service at all as there won’t be the staff to run it.

In any case I don’t see it being for the full year, but any return to normality will by necessity have to be heavily phased. There’s pretty much no chance of a return to full timetable for example whilst we have people shielded, and no one currently knows how long that’s going to last. Meanwhile there’s shed loads of annual leave accruing.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the reality is that in spite of the protestations of some on here, they will just have to come up with a better plan than "people reliant on public transport aren't allowed to travel for a year"

Ultimately using test & trace is going to be the only way forward. Limiting people's movements for as long as it takes to design, test, mass produce and distribute a vaccine just isn't economically viable. In Spain (as well as quite a few other European countries) they are already starting to ramp down or plan for ramping down restrictions in movements. We will soon have to start thinking about that too once infection rates start to dip as in those countries.

What we might expect is for those of us that can work from home to be asked to continue to do so for the foreseeable, whilst slowly pushing back on the other emergency measures.

 

[yorksrob]

Trouble is no one has yet come up with such a plan. How are you going to guarantee social distancing on something like a 150?

Likelihood is if I get on a train and it’s full of families travelling on jollies such that I can’t get my 2 metres, I will be turning round and heading home, and forget about all the overtime and juggling myself and others are currently doing to cover key roles. Many of my colleagues will do exactly the same. There will then be no train service at all as there won’t be the staff to run it.

In any case I don’t see it being for the full year, but any return to normality will by necessity have to be heavily phased.

Only issue a limited number of tickits for each train.

I'm still curious as to where this influx of commuters is going to come from.

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately using test & trace is going to be the only way forward. Limiting people's movements for as long as it takes to design, test, mass produce and distribute a vaccine just isn't economically viable. In Spain (as well as quite a few other European countries) they are already starting to ramp down or plan for ramping down restrictions in movements. We will soon have to start thinking about that too once infection rates start to dip as in those countries.

What we might expect is for those of us that can work from home to be asked to continue to do so for the foreseeable, whilst slowly pushing back on the other emergency measures.

Yes, I agree that that's inevitable. Much as I miss the office chit chat, ultimately if you're set up for working from home, you can do so more or less indefinately.

 

[bramling]

Only issue a limited number of tickits for each train.

I'm still curious as to where this influx of commuters is going to come from.

We’re not talking about a massive influx. To properly social distance, on something like a 150 you’re barely going to fit more than 20 people on a train.

Any solution involving compulsory reservations just won’t work, not on commuter services anyway - you could perhaps do it on Intercity-type services. How do you think it might work when train arrives with all allowable seats taken, and key workers can’t board?

 

[RT4038]

Trouble is no one has yet come up with such a plan. How are you going to guarantee social distancing on something like a 150?

Likelihood is if I get on a train and it’s full of families travelling on jollies such that I can’t get my 2 metres, I will be turning round and heading home, and forget about all the overtime and juggling myself and others are currently doing to cover key roles. Many of my colleagues will do exactly the same. There will then be no train service at all as there won’t be the staff to run it.

In any case I don’t see it being for the full year, but any return to normality will by necessity have to be heavily phased. There’s pretty much no chance of a return to full timetable for example whilst we have people shielded, and no one currently knows how long that’s going to last. Meanwhile there’s shed loads of annual leave accruing.

And some on this forum want a greater reliance on rail travel for the future....... Yeah, right.

 

[yorksrob]

We’re not talking about a massive influx. To properly social distance, on something like a 150 you’re barely going to fit more than 20 people on a train.

Any solution involving compulsory reservations just won’t work, not on commuter services anyway - you could perhaps do it on Intercity-type services. How do you think it might work when train arrives with all allowable seats taken, and key workers can’t board?

Don't allow any reservations on commuter services when the key workers are going to be travelling. The railway is used to working out this sort of thing.

 

[yorksrob]

And some on this forum want a greater reliance on rail travel for the future....... Yeah, right.

Yes, after the pandemic, certainly.

 

[bramling]

Don't allow any reservations on commuter services when the key workers are going to be travelling. The railway is used to working out this sort of thing.

So 1730 on a Saturday afternoon then? As you say yourself there’s still going to be plenty of people working from home, so plenty of potential leisure journeys.

 

[island]

I do feel for your cousin, unfortunately 40 miles is a long way to go for a breath of fresh air or exercise and would not have helped his case. As we know disabilities are not always obvious which may have changed the outcome.

It is a judgement call on the part of the policeman which went against your cousin, I take it there is no appeal process.

The “appeal process” would be to not pay and wait for a prosecution to be raised; one could then make one’s case to the magistrate.

 

[yorksrob]

So 1730 on a Saturday afternoon then? As you say yourself there’s still going to be plenty of people working from home, so plenty of potential leisure journeys.

Yeah, why not. If people need to travel, they will be prepared to travel at a different time.

 

[hassaanhc]

London is variable. Central London is pretty dead as one would expect. However suburbs feel almost normal, especially anywhere there’s shops. Bikes galore too. Having said all that, traffic *is* down as journeys aren’t taking as long, but at times it doesn’t feel like it. Once clear of London the motorways are fairly empty as one would expect - seems to be a slight increase in vans though.

As someone who actually lives in a London suburb, your description couldn't be further from the truth. I've been to a couple of local town centres / retail parks over the last week and they're extremely quiet compared to usual, as are the roads and buses. Do not use localised reports from small parts of East London and take it as representative of London.

 

[bramling]

And some on this forum want a greater reliance on rail travel for the future....... Yeah, right.

Erm, we are kind of in the middle of a global health emergency.

Seriously, I don’t think the railway industry needs to justify itself at all in this, on the contrary it can hold its head high in the knowledge that it has stepped up to the task required of it. Despite working under considerable operational pressure, the industry has delivered the service needed to get key workers where they needed to be. Many colleagues have gone above and beyond to ensure this, at some personal risk to themselves and family.

Whilst a good proportion of the rest of the population did what exactly to contribute?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The “appeal process” would be to not pay and wait for a prosecution to be raised; one could then make one’s case to the magistrate.

And I'm sure many would agree with me that for the sake of £30 (although I disagree with it on principle), it's not worth "appealing" and facing up to a magistrate.

 

[bramling]

As someone who actually lives in a London suburb, your description couldn't be further from the truth. I've been to a couple of local town centres / retail parks over the last week and they're extremely quiet compared to usual, as are the roads and buses. Do not use localised reports from small parts of East London and take it as representative of London.

I’m not relying on reports, I’m going by what I am seeing, both from my vantage point at work, and having travelled in and out by car a number of times over the last three weeks. Plus what others are reporting.

 

[farleigh]

Erm, we are kind of in the middle of a global health emergency.

Seriously, I don’t think the railway industry needs to justify itself at all in this, on the contrary it can hold its head high in the knowledge that it has stepped up to the task required of it. Despite working under considerable operational pressure, the industry has delivered the service needed to get key workers where they needed to be. Many colleagues have gone above and beyond to ensure this, at some personal risk to themselves and family.

Whilst a good proportion of the rest of the population did what exactly to contribute?

What did you want this proportion to do to contribute? A good proportion of the population are volunteering in a wide variety of ways despite losing their income or a significant proportion thereof. I presume you are on full pay no?

 

[Meerkat]

I’m not relying on reports, I’m going by what I am seeing, both from my vantage point at work, and having travelled in and out by car a number of times over the last three weeks. Plus what others are reporting.

I live in a London outer suburb and the roads are far quieter and the town centre almost totally dead.

 

[bramling]

What did you want this proportion to do to contribute? A good proportion of the population are volunteering in a wide variety of ways despite losing their income or a significant proportion thereof. I presume you are on full pay no?

Stayed at home without making a massive song and dance about it? Which to be fair most have done.

Yes I’m on full pay. I have worked my full contractual hours over the last few weeks, plus some overtime.

 

[Cowley]

I’m not relying on reports, I’m going by what I am seeing, both from my vantage point at work, and having travelled in and out by car a number of times over the last three weeks. Plus what others are reporting.

That doesn’t exactly sound scientific Bramling?
More a case of interpreting what you’re seeing in your own view and you trying to convince everyone that that’s how it is.
There’s many many reasons that people have to be out and about at the moment and unless you ask every single one of them (and they answer you honestly) you’ll never know.
My general feeling is that the vast majority of the country is doing its best to do the right thing, and because a few people aren’t doing it properly it shows up like a sore thumb because everywhere is devoid of the normal hustle and bustle.

I think it’s probably time to move this discussion on because most of it seems to have become supposition this last few hours.

 

[Cowley]

With that, can we keep this thread on the original topic of social distancing from now on please.
Thanks all.

 

[farleigh]

Stayed at home without making a massive song and dance about it? Which to be fair most have done.

Yes I’m on full pay. I have worked my full contractual hours over the last few weeks, plus some overtime.

Yes - that's the point IMO. The whole population (minus a tiny tiny minority) have made a huge sacrifice.

 

[AM9]

So once again, these are guidelines, not the law

The policeman should have exercised "reasonable juristriction" and sent my cousin home with a telling off/warning rather than issue a fine ...

That is your opinion. I don't have view on what he should have done, nor do I have a vested interest either. I wasn't there and as you say neither were you so this is all speculation with onlky one side of the story to go on. The policeman presumably used their judgement to determine what was reasonable, and how best to deal with that. That was his responsibility. It is the responsibility of every adult who is of sound enough mind to go out alone to make a similar judgement on what is reasonable (as stated in the guidelines).
It would appear to me that the fine is a) set at such a low level that is seen as a penalty rather than the start of punishment for a criminal act, and b) does not give anybody a police record that might affect other aspects of their life in the future.
The police in general* tried giving friendly advice which in some cases persuaded people to obey the guidance. There will always be some who decide that it isn't meant for them to comply with so something a bit stronger is needed. There were a few twits that decuded to take the police on and promptly were arrested for threatening behaviour and in one case assault.

*Obviously the press, and those who were censured by the police make a big noise about it, but in reality the amount of police action so far ihas been far less than the amount of flouting of the rules that certain members of the public have been doing.

 

[bramling]

Yes - that's the point IMO. The whole population (minus a tiny tiny minority) have made a huge sacrifice.

Absolutely. And, notwithstanding the tiny number of reports where police have overstepped the mark, we should be supporting the police in enforcing things so that all this isn’t wasted. Hence why I’m less than pleased to see people trying to test the boundaries or invent reasons why they should be a special case.

 

[AM9]

So once again, these are guidelines, not the law

The policeman should have exercised "reasonable juristriction" and sent my cousin home with a telling off/warning rather than issue a fine

Clearly you didn't understand my post #1135, or maybe you didn't read it. The act uses the term 'reasonable' as an alternative to specifying every minute detail of the scope of the law where the general intent is quite clear. So in the context of exercise the intent is to avoid excessive unnecessary journeys (either in number or in length) in pursuit of exercise as it would have an impact on social distancing and ultimately could increase the load on the NHS by increasing the possibility of road accidents. A similar argument applies to using public transport.
There have been more than enough clarificationns that reasonable is a very short journey or better still non, i.e. just walk.
For those that have a different idea, (or just won't obey such as restriction) the law has a mechanism to test a person's idea as reasonable in court. Anybody can defend themselves if they feel strongly enough about it, and the court will use a test of reasonableness, which, be warned is likely to be what the majority of the population already understands. So maybe the odd person who thinks that their wishes are special in the circumstances should give it another thought. Social distancing is not difficult, most people manage it even when it is boring/inconvenient/etc..
That is the way it is in law.

 

[sheff1]

With that, can we keep this thread on the original topic of social distancing from now on please.
Thanks all.

The title I am seeing is "...... social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc". If the limit of discussion is now solely social distancing do we need a new thread to discuss enforcement in other areas ?

 

[Cowley]

The title I am seeing is "...... social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc". If the limit of discussion is now solely social distancing do we need a new thread to discuss enforcement in other areas ?

Yes thanks for pointing that out. What I was trying to convey was that the thread was heading very much into the field of anecdotal evidence which is subjective and although it is of course fine to talk about that, there has to be a limit and it can’t take over the entire thread.

 

[High Dyke]

BTP were enforcing at Lincoln today. One 'poor chap' got fined twice. He'd arrived by train to allegedly visit his bank...on a public holiday. So he got penalised for arriving, but then decided not to return straight back on the next available train - and was promptly given a second fine.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes, I agree that that's inevitable. Much as I miss the office chit chat, ultimately if you're set up for working from home, you can do so more or less indefinately.

Indeed, although a more permanent shift to home working will present it's own challenges in the longer term, but that is probably for another thread.

Erm, we are kind of in the middle of a global health emergency.

Seriously, I don’t think the railway industry needs to justify itself at all in this, on the contrary it can hold its head high in the knowledge that it has stepped up to the task required of it. Despite working under considerable operational pressure, the industry has delivered the service needed to get key workers where they needed to be. Many colleagues have gone above and beyond to ensure this, at some personal risk to themselves and family.

Whilst a good proportion of the rest of the population did what exactly to contribute?

I think that last sentence is deeply unfair, most people have done what they were told to do and stayed at home unless on essential business, and kept social distancing when doing so.

BTP were enforcing at Lincoln today. One 'poor chap' got fined twice. He'd arrived by train to allegedly visit his bank...on a public holiday. So he got penalised for arriving, but then decided not to return straight back on the next available train - and was promptly given a second fine.

That seems deeply unfair, fine him once for the outbound journey, but he had to get home surely? This is what is starting to worry me, it almost seems like the Police despite being told to use discretion are also being told to meet some kind of target.

Just on the wider issue of social distancing, I honestly don't think that it is a medium term solution let alone a long term one. It was a rapid action, short term measure to slow infection rates long enough to allow the NHS to build capacity, which it is doing. When infection rates, and therefore hospitalisation rates start to come down is when the government will start to consider easement. Social distancing is not some crutch for society until a vaccine can be widely distributed, it can't be because our society and economy is built around interaction, mass travel etc. So we are going to have to get used to the idea of rebuilding our interactions bit by bit. There are however many changes we can make to reduce if not remove the risk.

• As mentioned earlier, encouraging more home work to reduce the number of commuters, particularly at peak hours.
• Where this is not possible consider wider opening times, particularly on Sundays where the current trading laws may need review.
• Given that a significant proportion of cases were hotspotting around the capital, encourage businesses to spread the risk out to smaller regional centres closer to commuter towns.
• Increase capacity on public transport. This was kind of happening in some areas of the rail network, but it may be time to consider maximising the use of all rolling stock available and in store wherever possible, either through longer formations or more frequent services. Buses would be slightly more challenging, and would probably need some additional level of subsidy.
• Encourage the use of face masks when people have coughs or prone to sneezing. Its a common practice in the Far East and would at least help reduce the risk of airborne particles being inhaled or landing on surfaces where they might be viable for some time.
• Consider the use of technology to track cases, and alert people that may have come into contact with people who have subsequently shown possible symptoms.
• Increase the number of public conveniences so that people have more opportunity to wash their hands.
• But most of all make tests widespread, and accessible as soon as they become available.

Some of these measures will present more problems than others, but I don't see any reason why some or all of them can't become part of the solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BTP were enforcing at Lincoln today. One 'poor chap' got fined twice. He'd arrived by train to allegedly visit his bank...on a public holiday. So he got penalised for arriving, but then decided not to return straight back on the next available train - and was promptly given a second fine.

How does that work? The fine is for non-essential travel, only one instance of that has been committed because a key part of the offence is leaving your home.

Some forces really are being quite stupid. It does seem mostly to be the rural ones...