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Drop in passenger numbers sees train services cut

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Philip

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Do people expect the full timetable to be reinstated in time for the May timetable change? The lockdown measures will have been in place for 6-7 weeks by that point, assuming they haven't already been lifted, I would think that would be enough time to get this under control.
 
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MDB1images

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Do people expect the full timetable to be reinstated in time for the May timetable change? The lockdown measures will have been in place for 6-7 weeks by that point, assuming they haven't already been lifted, I would think that would be enough time to get this under control.

No-one really knows how long this will go on for, I suppose people are watching Italy and Spain but tbh each country will be different.
I think May would be very ambitious and with social distancing remaining for potentially a long time I think the work at home message will remain.
 

LittleAH

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Do people expect the full timetable to be reinstated in time for the May timetable change? The lockdown measures will have been in place for 6-7 weeks by that point, assuming they haven't already been lifted, I would think that would be enough time to get this under control.

Personally, No. Honestly, I can't see this blowing over until August/September. You've also got to think about the likely second wave.
 

Bald Rick

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Do people expect the full timetable to be reinstated in time for the May timetable change? The lockdown measures will have been in place for 6-7 weeks by that point, assuming they haven't already been lifted, I would think that would be enough time to get this under control.

Almost certainly not.
 

The Ham

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Do people expect the full timetable to be reinstated in time for the May timetable change? The lockdown measures will have been in place for 6-7 weeks by that point, assuming they haven't already been lifted, I would think that would be enough time to get this under control.

Maybe May 2021 or maybe 2022 would be more likely (the latter could well be the timeline if we had to stay semi locked down until the majority have had a vaccine and/or have been shown to have had it).
 

Philip

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Surprised at the timescales I'm seeing here. I can see how it might go on into summer, but surely a year is overstating it? The contagious swine flu ravaged Britain across June to August 2009 and had a brief second wave in October-November, but after that it largely disappeared. Why shouldn't this go a similar way?
 

Killingworth

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Maybe May 2021 or maybe 2022 would be more likely (the latter could well be the timeline if we had to stay semi locked down until the majority have had a vaccine and/or have been shown to have had it).

If we think of 2022 it's slump territory and more. 2021 would be too.

We have to fine tune our response and that hasn't had time to happen yet. Part of that tuning will include rationalisation of things like railways.

I note that the trains that run on my line are running almost to time, against an average of 5 minutes late, and many much worse .

We've lost Sheffield - Liverpool which must be helping through Castlefield. We'd just got 6 coach TPE on the Sheffield - Manchester part of the route instead of 3, but have lost 4 from EMR. Northern's1150s are bigger than 142s. Loadings have dropped to about 2% of normal, at best. Its going to be quite some time before loadings recover.

Judging from less than a month on one route is far too small a sample, but the pointers are very clear. We won't have need for the full service we had a month ago by May, probably not by December, and quite possibly on some routes for years, if ever!

There will be lots of conflicting and competing demands for public money as this drags on. Subsidising under utilised railways may not be seen as a priority.
 

AndrewE

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If we think of 2022 it's slump territory and more. 2021 would be too.
We have to fine tune our response and that hasn't had time to happen yet. Part of that tuning will include rationalisation of things like railways.

Judging from less than a month on one route is far too small a sample, but the pointers are very clear. We won't have need for the full service we had a month ago by May, probably not by December, and quite possibly on some routes for years, if ever!
There will be lots of conflicting and competing demands for public money as this drags on. Subsidising under utilised railways may not be seen as a priority.
I disagree. If we're in a slump then people will be poorer and good public transport will help them access the jobs that do become available. Cutting infrastructure will prolong the shutdown: The 1930s were a downward spiral until the war made governments spend, which wound the economy up again. Britons were kept exceptionally poor after the war because of the national need to pay back loans. Admittedly Germany and France restarted from a more badly damaged infrastructure, but it was the re-building (with "Allied" money) that got their economies going and made them generally more prosperous than us in the 1960s and 70s.
 

Meerkat

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The service cuts have been dramatic. How easily can they be gradually ramped up or is it a choice of this or jump straight to near full timetable?
 

Bald Rick

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The service cuts have been dramatic. How easily can they be gradually ramped up or is it a choice of this or jump straight to near full timetable?

It depends on the operator, the level of the reductions, how long the reduced service is in for, the level of staff absence, and more.
 

Meerkat

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It depends on the operator, the level of the reductions, how long the reduced service is in for, the level of staff absence, and more.
I hadn’t really thought of the resource implications - I was thinking more of the timetabling.
Ie can you just chuck in a service doubling here and there where it’s needed or is it far nearer to all or nothing because of the National timetabling system.
 

Greybeard33

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I hadn’t really thought of the resource implications - I was thinking more of the timetabling.
Ie can you just chuck in a service doubling here and there where it’s needed or is it far nearer to all or nothing because of the National timetabling system.
I believe that, to a large extent, the current emergency timetable services are running in paths that are defined in the working timetable. So, as and when demand recovers, more services could be progressively reinstated.

But I would have thought that other constraints will be much more important than timetabling. The whole world economy is currently in intensive care. Even if there were to be an instant miracle cure for the virus in a couple of months time, there would inevitably be a long period of economic convalesence, in which travel demand would only recover slowly.

As far as the railway is concerned, train crew will need refresher training to regain lost route knowledge, parked rolling stock will need servicing and testing before return to service, some parts of the infrastructure will need to be brought back into use... it is not like just throwing a switch.

Not to mention replanning of disrupted programmes for recruitment, training and introduction of new trains.
 

Killingworth

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I disagree. If we're in a slump then people will be poorer and good public transport will help them access the jobs that do become available. Cutting infrastructure will prolong the shutdown: The 1930s were a downward spiral until the war made governments spend, which wound the economy up again. Britons were kept exceptionally poor after the war because of the national need to pay back loans. Admittedly Germany and France restarted from a more badly damaged infrastructure, but it was the re-building (with "Allied" money) that got their economies going and made them generally more prosperous than us in the 1960s and 70s.

I'd merely say we're still digging this hole. We may have started digging ourselves out, but it wil be some weeks and months before we can survey the damage and start a strong reconstruction.

In the meantime reinstating the full rail services won't be needed because very many folks have got the message not to use mass transport of any kind, trains, buses, tubes, planes and ships. The tube will probably recover fastest, and London commuting, but a 20% medium term decline is not hard to imagine.
 

Bald Rick

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I'd merely say we're still digging this hole. We may have started digging ourselves out, but it wil be some weeks and months before we can survey the damage and start a strong reconstruction.

In the meantime reinstating the full rail services won't be needed because very many folks have got the message not to use mass transport of any kind, trains, buses, tubes, planes and ships. The tube will probably recover fastest, and London commuting, but a 20% medium term decline is not hard to imagine.

A 20 % decline just takes us back to where we were 5 years ago or so, which arguably means that we might be in a position where capacity upgrades come along in time!
 

Bald Rick

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I believe that, to a large extent, the current emergency timetable services are running in paths that are defined in the working timetable. So, as and when demand recovers, more services could be progressively reinstated.

Some are, some aren’t. And those that aren’t are the problem for reintroducing services. The other issue is that traincrew rosters etc are still on the ‘proper’ timetable, and being bodged to fit diagrams each day (as there’s generally more crew available than work).
 

kentrailman

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My local station, sandling in Kent, has hourly HS1 trains to st pancras for the first time ever under the emergency timetable. Previously the fast trains didn't stop and one had to watch them go through the station then get a slow train and wait for ages to change at ashford, making the trip an hour and a half instead of an hour. The high speed service from folkestone only takes a couple of minutes longer because of the stop, yet would save everyone locally either a 20 minute drive to Folkestone or Ashford or a 25 minute wait. Please can we keep this service like this when everything is over !!! Previously they have said there are not the passengers to justify it .. But that's because we all drive to ashford or folkestone because of the trains not stopping !
 

LittleAH

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Surprised at the timescales I'm seeing here. I can see how it might go on into summer, but surely a year is overstating it? The contagious swine flu ravaged Britain across June to August 2009 and had a brief second wave in October-November, but after that it largely disappeared. Why shouldn't this go a similar way?

Because this isn't Swine Flu. In 2009 only 400 or so lives were lost - Covid-19 has seen off more than 500 yesterday alone. It's a different virus and much more contagious. Covid-19 is more similar to Spanish Flu in terms of how contagious it is and the spread - Spanish Flu is estimated to have killed over 200k in the UK and 25% of the population infected.

We are in a better position than we were medically 100 years ago, even though we should be better than we currently are due to the under-funding of the NHS and poor response of this government. Still, 2500 have passed away in the UK, with 30,000 infections we know of since nobody bar those in hospital are now being tested. Honestly, I fear we could see 30,000 deaths in the UK i

The Deputy Chief Medial Officer said on Sunday that it could be six months before we return to normal. On that basis, you're looking at October. Still, how will social distancing end? It's likely the virus will still be around so a second wave is inevitable. Reality is 2020 is now a write off.
 

The Ham

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I disagree. If we're in a slump then people will be poorer and good public transport will help them access the jobs that do become available. Cutting infrastructure will prolong the shutdown: The 1930s were a downward spiral until the war made governments spend, which wound the economy up again. Britons were kept exceptionally poor after the war because of the national need to pay back loans. Admittedly Germany and France restarted from a more badly damaged infrastructure, but it was the re-building (with "Allied" money) that got their economies going and made them generally more prosperous than us in the 1960s and 70s.

The thought behind the long back to normal passenger flows isn't to do with how well/badly the economy is doing. It's more to do with the fact that by flattening the curve we'll likely need to keep staff who are able to do so working from home for a long period of time.

As such chances are we see restrictions on going to school relaxed in September, but the request for those to work at home to continue to be asked for some time yet.

Whilst reopening schools would increase the risk of transmission, leading to more cases, as long as there's been a good number of cases and the reinfection rate has tailed off then the risk of overloading the NHS should be fairly small. However if you reopened offices as well then that risk could be too high.

Other workforces could return to work (such as construction and building maintenance along maybe some more relaxations on retail and leisure) to limit the harm to the economy.

The other reason for the circa 2 year period is so that it gives time for a vaccine to be develop, tested and roll out to be well advanced before allowing significant rail travel (with the potential for significant numbers of people to be infected).

Aviation is likely to be hit hard and is unlikely to recover to the levels seen before. Not least as there'll be a change mindsets about the desire to travel quite so freely. Also with any negative change to economy it would also result in people having less money to spend on luxuries, as well as a desire to have larger reserves of money incase there's another 6 months of lockdown with limited chances for earnings (or at the very least replenishing those reserves which have been depleted).

Whilst this would also have a negative impact on rail travel for leisure, this is likely to be offset by those saying "let's stay in the UK rather than going abroad". Especially if you'd be going to places where a vaccine hasn't been so widely distributed (such as those places where the citizens have to pay for it). As travel to such places could result in the increased risk of picking up a mutanted version which does infect you as the vaccine doesn't protect you from it (much the same way as the flu vaccine has to change every year).

If there's a vaccine, I'd expect that there would be requirements from countries that anyone entering from abroad (regardless of if they originated from that country, so if you or I went on holiday we'd need to have had the vaccine before we could re-enter the UK, even if we could go into, say, Spain without such protections) would need to have had the vaccine before they are allowed to travel. Quite possibly at least 2 weeks beforehand. That's likely to further restrict international holiday travel.

Chances are a roll out of the vaccine would be test and then once you've got the results get the vaccine I'd you've not been exposed. In doing so it would minimise the number of people needing to be vaccinated early on. To provide better protection to the population at large you may well vaccinate everyone at a later date with a second dose just to be sure (i.e. in case someone had a false positive result for having had the virus during the testing phase).
 

Philip

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Because this isn't Swine Flu. In 2009 only 400 or so lives were lost - Covid-19 has seen off more than 500 yesterday alone. It's a different virus and much more contagious. Covid-19 is more similar to Spanish Flu in terms of how contagious it is and the spread - Spanish Flu is estimated to have killed over 200k in the UK and 25% of the population infected.

We are in a better position than we were medically 100 years ago, even though we should be better than we currently are due to the under-funding of the NHS and poor response of this government. Still, 2500 have passed away in the UK, with 30,000 infections we know of since nobody bar those in hospital are now being tested. Honestly, I fear we could see 30,000 deaths in the UK i

The Deputy Chief Medial Officer said on Sunday that it could be six months before we return to normal. On that basis, you're looking at October. Still, how will social distancing end? It's likely the virus will still be around so a second wave is inevitable. Reality is 2020 is now a write off.

The Spanish flu was the same strain of virus that caused swine flu! The H1N1 virus.

As for being very contagious - so was swine flu! This virus isn't any different in that it can be caught by either getting droplets from someone who coughs/sneezes, or by touching an infected surface and then handling food or touching your eyes/mouth.

I know this virus is worse than swine flu in the seriousness of it, but even during the peak of the swine flu pandemic, I don't remember any cuts to rail services, at least not in my area.
 

Bald Rick

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I know this virus is worse than swine flu in the seriousness of it, but even during the peak of the swine flu pandemic, I don't remember any cuts to rail services, at least not in my area.

Do you also remember the entire population being told to stay at home except for key workers and essential journeys to get food and medicine?
 

Killingworth

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A 20 % decline just takes us back to where we were 5 years ago or so, which arguably means that we might be in a position where capacity upgrades come along in time!

I said 20% medium term decline. Medium term I'd possibly define as 2-5 years. In the short term, up to 2 years, I can see rail use decline by 50% with big variations across the country. The recovery will be gradual as confidence is restored, and it will be uneven.

The longer we manage without trains the more we'll get used to it. Partly that will be due to the inevitable major downturn in jobs. Partly because we discover that home working is easier than we thought, tested by months rather than an odd day doing it. In the short term it will be because leisure users won't want to risk being in crowds of any sort and money will be short. We've been told not to travel unless we have to and the vast majority have obeyed the call.

There will be many bad effects, but there will be good. In 10 years time we'll better see the results. In the shorter term we'll be able to reassess what has worked with the emergency timetables. I feel sure the regular timetables in 5 years time will reflect changed needs and travel patterns.

I'm afraid the airports are in for a lean time so, as an example, rail services to Manchester Airport will not need the priority they've recently had.

It's far too early to predict details, but recent fears about rolling stock shortages can probably be set to one side. Earlier scrapping is more likely. What a difference a month has made!
 

Bletchleyite

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Are LNR the first to withdraw a route or stations entirely? There will be no replacement service on the Marston Vale or the Abbey Flyer nor any service via the "wobble" from next week.
 

ARIC

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I know this virus is worse than swine flu in the seriousness of it, but even during the peak of the swine flu pandemic, I don't remember any cuts to rail services, at least not in my area.

At the "peak" of swine flu we were seeing around 5 deaths a day. When the UK was at that level of fatalities from COVID-19, we were simply being told to wash our hands.

Now we're seeing nearly 600 fatalities in one day. So of course we're seeing stronger measures in place to combat it.

Take this graph of Swine Flu fatalities in the UK. If you were to plot yesterday anywhere on that graph it would be an almost vertical straight line, double the height of the entire graph.

_46897761_swine_flu_deaths466x385.gif
 

Thomas31

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Are LNR the first to withdraw a route or stations entirely? There will be no replacement service on the Marston Vale or the Abbey Flyer nor any service via the "wobble" from next week.

I do wonder if some branch lines will ever reopen, or if this will prove a convenient excuse to permanently close some sections of lines
 

Greybeard33

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The thought behind the long back to normal passenger flows isn't to do with how well/badly the economy is doing. It's more to do with the fact that by flattening the curve we'll likely need to keep staff who are able to do so working from home for a long period of time.

As such chances are we see restrictions on going to school relaxed in September, but the request for those to work at home to continue to be asked for some time yet.

Whilst reopening schools would increase the risk of transmission, leading to more cases, as long as there's been a good number of cases and the reinfection rate has tailed off then the risk of overloading the NHS should be fairly small. However if you reopened offices as well then that risk could be too high.

Other workforces could return to work (such as construction and building maintenance along maybe some more relaxations on retail and leisure) to limit the harm to the economy.

The other reason for the circa 2 year period is so that it gives time for a vaccine to be develop, tested and roll out to be well advanced before allowing significant rail travel (with the potential for significant numbers of people to be infected).

Aviation is likely to be hit hard and is unlikely to recover to the levels seen before. Not least as there'll be a change mindsets about the desire to travel quite so freely. Also with any negative change to economy it would also result in people having less money to spend on luxuries, as well as a desire to have larger reserves of money incase there's another 6 months of lockdown with limited chances for earnings (or at the very least replenishing those reserves which have been depleted).

Whilst this would also have a negative impact on rail travel for leisure, this is likely to be offset by those saying "let's stay in the UK rather than going abroad". Especially if you'd be going to places where a vaccine hasn't been so widely distributed (such as those places where the citizens have to pay for it). As travel to such places could result in the increased risk of picking up a mutanted version which does infect you as the vaccine doesn't protect you from it (much the same way as the flu vaccine has to change every year).

If there's a vaccine, I'd expect that there would be requirements from countries that anyone entering from abroad (regardless of if they originated from that country, so if you or I went on holiday we'd need to have had the vaccine before we could re-enter the UK, even if we could go into, say, Spain without such protections) would need to have had the vaccine before they are allowed to travel. Quite possibly at least 2 weeks beforehand. That's likely to further restrict international holiday travel.

Chances are a roll out of the vaccine would be test and then once you've got the results get the vaccine I'd you've not been exposed. In doing so it would minimise the number of people needing to be vaccinated early on. To provide better protection to the population at large you may well vaccinate everyone at a later date with a second dose just to be sure (i.e. in case someone had a false positive result for having had the virus during the testing phase).
Longer term, after the pandemic has been brought under control or burned itself out, I expect we will see a permanent and irreversible shift to much more working and shopping from home in place of office work and shopping trips, and flexitime for occasional visits to the office. The IT infrastructure and apps have pretty well with the huge surge in demand, and will only improve further. Businesses have been forced to adapt systems and procedures to enable home working, and many will find that they work better than expected. For example, we may well see the demise of huge call centres with their serried rows of desks.

The result will likely be a large and permanent decline in peak hour commuting, especially into city centres. This will reduce road traffic congestion and so encourage more of the remaining commuters to cycle or use their private cars, especially since people will be more wary of the health risks of public transport. Quieter roads will also reduce the journey time advantage of rail versus bus.

Therefore I believe the railway will have to adapt to a world where demand is much less "peaky" and leisure travel becomes more important relative to commuting. Pre-virus capacity issues were largely in the peaks, so some infrastructure capacity enhancements might no longer be needed and we may see earlier withdrawal of older rolling stock.

Edit: @Killingworth beat me to it!
 

Bletchleyite

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Therefore I believe the railway will have to adapt to a world where demand is much less "peaky" and leisure travel becomes more important relative to commuting.

Which is probably a good thing as it's far cheaper to serve - you don't have a load of expensive newish EMUs sitting on Camden Bank doing nowt all day, for instance. You just need to run a consistent regular interval clockface timetable all day with fixed train lengths.
 

JonathanH

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Longer term, after the pandemic has been brought under control or burned itself out, I expect we will see a permanent and irreversible shift to much more working and shopping from home in place of office work and shopping trips, and flexitime for occasional visits to the office. The IT infrastructure and apps have pretty well with the huge surge in demand, and will only improve further. Businesses have been forced to adapt systems and procedures to enable home working, and many will find that they work better than expected. For example, we may well see the demise of huge call centres with their serried rows of desks.

I think it could well be more than that. On top of the decline in people travelling to work because they have got used to working at home, I think there will be a lot of pressure from investors for pretty severe headcount reductions across a lot of office based jobs to cut costs, particularly if there is a tax hike to come. Indeed, a look at more robot based solutions. Coupled with that, fewer workers in offices will mean big falls in ancilliary staff and the other businesses that surround office areas.
 

PTR 444

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Longer term, after the pandemic has been brought under control or burned itself out, I expect we will see a permanent and irreversible shift to much more working and shopping from home in place of office work and shopping trips, and flexitime for occasional visits to the office. The IT infrastructure and apps have pretty well with the huge surge in demand, and will only improve further. Businesses have been forced to adapt systems and procedures to enable home working, and many will find that they work better than expected. For example, we may well see the demise of huge call centres with their serried rows of desks.

The result will likely be a large and permanent decline in peak hour commuting, especially into city centres. This will reduce road traffic congestion and so encourage more of the remaining commuters to cycle or use their private cars, especially since people will be more wary of the health risks of public transport. Quieter roads will also reduce the journey time advantage of rail versus bus.

Edit: @Killingworth beat me to it!

And in that case, will there be enough public transport for the people who can't afford to buy a car or learn to drive?
 
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