South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Meerkat]

A lot of blaming Westminster there.
Must be tempting just to sign the whole lot over to the WG with a cheery “ok...show us how easy it is....”

 

[oglord]

A lot of blaming Westminster there.
Must be tempting just to sign the whole lot over to the WG with a cheery “ok...show us how easy it is....”

That's all they ever do!

 

[Cardiff123]

A lot of blaming Westminster there.
Must be tempting just to sign the whole lot over to the WG with a cheery “ok...show us how easy it is....”

I'm sure that is exactly what the Welsh Govt wants. UK govt won't do it however because it will involve the necessary increase in Welsh Govt funding via the block grant from the Treasury as a result, and Wales would then also have to get increase in rail infrastructure funding as a result of HS2, due to Barnett formula consequentials. If UK govt keeps control of NR in Wales, no increase in rail Infrastructure funding in Wales as a result of HS2 is needed.

It is ridiculous that Wales is the only devolved govt in the UK not to have full control over its rail infrastructure

 

[Oscar46016]

The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.

Isn't the problem with the city line that there is single track for part of it?

 

[VT 390]

Isn't the problem with the city line that there is single track for part of it?

The single line section is only on the Coryton branch.

 

[59CosG95]

Isn't the problem with the city line that there is single track for part of it?

No, only the Coryton branch - and that used to be double-track too.

 

[daodao]

No, only the Coryton branch - and that used to be double-track too.

It would be possible to reinstate double track in parts to create dynamic loops, e.g. between Rhiwbeina and the pedestrian crossing east of Whitchurch station, to enable a more frequent service. However, parts of the trackbed have been built on, e.g. there is a row of garages (one of which I once owned) built on the former trackbed just west of that pedestrian crossing.

 

[toby_farman]

I've had this notion many times - instead of 36 "tram-trains" get 36 3 car class 755! (with toilets)

Cancel "smart electrification" of the Merthyr line and Rhondda line and simply electrify (standard NR electrification) and double track the cardiff bay line!

The trains could switch to electric at Queen street and even terminate at a planned new cardiff bay station with two (or three?) platforms.

Of course Loudoun square could still be constructed!

Can somebody please explain why this isn't going to happen?

 

[Bald Rick]

I've had this notion many times - instead of 36 "tram-trains" get 36 3 car class 755! (with toilets)

Cancel "smart electrification" of the Merthyr line and Rhondda line and simply electrify (standard NR electrification) and double track the cardiff bay line!

The trains could switch to electric at Queen street and even terminate at a planned new cardiff bay station with two (or three?) platforms.

Of course Loudoun square could still be constructed!

Can somebody please explain why this isn't going to happen?

Because it would be a lot more expensive.

 

[John R]

Also, because the trams have already been ordered.

 

[toby_farman]

Also, because the trams have already been ordered.

Ironic, that the coryton line that goes 8.8 km from cardiff is getting proper trains with high floors, but the merthyr line that goes 48.7 km from cardiff is getting stupid incompatible low floor trams with no toilets!

 

[toby_farman]

Because it would be a lot more expensive.

Whats more expensive about getting conventional rolling stock?

 

[krus_aragon]

Whats more expensive about getting conventional rolling stock?

The full-standard electrification of the lines to Merthyr and Rhondda, to allow the conventional rolling stock to get there.

The "smart" of the smart electrification is based on not electrifying the expensive, complicated bits (such as low overbridges).

 

[toby_farman]

The full-standard electrification of the lines to Merthyr and Rhondda, to allow the conventional rolling stock to get there.

The "smart" of the smart electrification is based on not electrifying the expensive, complicated bits (such as low overbridges).

I suggested not electrifiying those lines, use bi-mode trains which switch onto electric at cardiff queen street (755s/756s)

 

[John R]

Ironic, that the coryton line that goes 8.8 km from cardiff is getting proper trains with high floors, but the merthyr line that goes 48.7 km from cardiff is getting stupid incompatible low floor trams with no toilets!

About 37km actually. What do they need to be compatible with? There’s no intention for them to run anywhere else.

I won’t rise to the toilet debate, as it’s been done to death many times before.

 

[John R]

I suggested not electrifiying those lines, use bi-mode trains which switch onto electric at cardiff queen street (755s/756s)

So not electrifying the bulk of the network then (bear in mind there will be virtually no electrification south of points just north of Queen St.)? Hardly a good way to build a carbon minimal system fit for the next 30 years, and means no performance gain on the inclines all the way up the valleys.

It’s all ordered now and we’ve chewed this over in depth when the announcement was made. If you start at the first page and read the next 103 you’ll see both sides of the debate.

 

[krus_aragon]

I suggested not electrifiying those lines, use bi-mode trains which switch onto electric at cardiff queen street (755s/756s)

Ah, I misinterpreted your post as suggesting electrifying Merthyr/Rhymney, and doubling the Bay. Sorry.

As @Brissle Girl suggested, that would leave a large proportion of the network unelectrified. I'd wonder if it'd be enough of a proportion to bother with bi-modes, or just stick with diesel engines.

 

[Tom Quinne]

“Smart” read cheap...trams have to happen whether it what’s needed or not as some doctor in with the WAG said so, to cancel that now would be a huge kipper in the face.

We can only hope the project is delayed enough for a change of government next year ? and the whole cheap bargain basement project is cancelled in favour of doing a fully compatible full flat job.

 

[edwin_m]

“Smart” read cheap...trams have to happen whether it what’s needed or not as some doctor in with the WAG said so, to cancel that now would be a huge kipper in the face.

We can only hope the project is delayed enough for a change of government next year ? and the whole cheap bargain basement project is cancelled in favour of doing a fully compatible full flat job.

As mentioned the contract has been signed and work is well under way on the vehicles, so the builder would be entitled to a huge compensation payment if it was cancelled now. Stopping and starting again with something different would also push the delivery date past the cut-off for EU funding, although the coronavirus may have done that already.

 

[John R]

“Smart” read cheap...trams have to happen whether it what’s needed or not as some doctor in with the WAG said so, to cancel that now would be a huge kipper in the face.

We can only hope the project is delayed enough for a change of government next year ? and the whole cheap bargain basement project is cancelled in favour of doing a fully compatible full flat job.

So push everything back 2+ years, pay contract penalties in respect of the orders already made, most notably the trams, add X hundred million to the cost by doing the "proper job" that you feel is needed, lose the £119m EU funding that is predicated on the delivery date being met* , discover there's no money to pay for it. Great idea!

* The govt has said they will step in and pay the EU funding if the delivery date is missed, as seems likely, due to the delays in transferring the infrastructure from NR. They would be unlikely to honour that though if the Welsh Assembly decided off it's own bat to delay the project by a further couple of years, which would have ruled out the EU funding even if the NR transfer had been done on time.

Edit: posted simultaneously as Edwin_m, but we're singing from the same hymnsheet!

 

[Tom Quinne]

A few years now, with say £50m (total finger in the air number) delay on their cheap option, compared to a literal lifetime of could’a would’a should’a from future generations forced to live with the decisions of today’s cost of everything, value of nothing thought process.

 

[Domh245]

What is the extra value that you get from 755s or full electrification that you don't get from the citylinks though?

 

[Dai Corner]

What is the extra value that you get from 755s or full electrification that you don't get from the citylinks though?

Better passenger experience (including toilets?) and lower maintenance costs.

 

[John R]

Better passenger experience (including toilets?) and lower maintenance costs.

Not convinced by the lower maintenance cost. A conventional unit will be heavier. Then in addition the diesel engine will increase maintenance costs, energy costs (even when on ac due to the added weight), track wear, and the toilet will also increase weight, and needs regular servicing. And as it has to be accessible takes up a lot of space too.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not convinced by the lower maintenance cost. A conventional unit will be heavier. Then in addition the diesel engine will increase maintenance costs, energy costs (even when on ac due to the added weight), track wear, and the toilet will also increase weight, and needs regular servicing. And as it has to be accessible takes up a lot of space too.

I meant lower maintenance costs for full electrification and pure electrics.

Probably best to avoid the 'T' word! I regret mentioning it now.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

A few years now, with say £50m (total finger in the air number) delay on their cheap option, compared to a literal lifetime of could’a would’a should’a from future generations forced to live with the decisions of today’s cost of everything, value of nothing thought process.

That really is a 'total finger in the air number'. A 'whistling in the wind number' would be a better description. It would cost far more than that.

Cost is not irrelevant and you can chirpy chirpy cheep cheep all you like and roll out every cliche in the book, but governments have to make value judgements with the money they have. At this moment, I think the people of Wales would prefer your 'finger in the air number' was invested in the future resiliance of our health service rather than in some weird insistance that train floors be at a particular level or that toilets be available for short journeys.

 

[Envoy]

Has the rail infrastructure of the central valleys actually now be signed over to The Welsh Government? If it is out of Network Rail control, what about the signalling that is controlled from the massive control centre at Canton? Is all the money invested in this modern signalling system going down the drain?

 

[Dai Corner]

Has the rail infrastructure of the central valleys actually now be signed over to The Welsh Government? If it is out of Network Rail control, what about the signalling that is controlled from the massive control centre at Canton? Is all the money invested in this modern signalling system going down the drain?

Yes, it's still operated from Cardiff, and it will be interesting to see what happens in that order.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, it's still operated from Cardiff, and it will be interesting to see what happens in that order.

The bits of the valley lines that are now under the stewardship of TfW will have control transferred to the new centre at Taffs Wells. This is a relatively cheap operation compared to complete resignalling - the interlockigns and ground equipment all stay the same, except where changes are proposed for the capacity increase.

 

[Dai Corner]

The bits of the valley lines that are now under the stewardship of TfW will have control transferred to the new centre at Taffs Wells. This is a relatively cheap operation compared to complete resignalling - the interlockigns and ground equipment all stay the same, except where changes are proposed for the capacity increase.

And the change in flows, with the Rhymney-Vale trains having to cross the Cathays-Bay ones around Queen Street.