Advice needed: Penalty fares notice-court action

[John @ home]

In my view, and it is only my opinion, before penalty fares can be charged, TOC's must be made to ensure that there are sufficient facilities in place to allow customers to purchase tickets with a minimum of fuss.

It's not only your opinion. It closely corresponds with the Department for Transport's Penalty Fares Policy.

Ticket facilities

4.11 One of the SRA's three basic conditions for approving a penalty fares scheme is that passengers must be given a sufficient opportunity to buy a ticket or permit to travel before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area. Every penalty fares station must have sufficient facilities for selling tickets.

4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33).

4.13 At staffed stations, operators must provide a second way of selling tickets in addition to the ticket office. This might be a 'permit to travel' machine or one or more self-service ticket machines. This is necessary because the ticket office may not be open at all times when trains are running, and there may be times when the ticket office is closed because of staff sickness or for other reasons. There may also be a need to provide back-up at busy times when queues might build up. Arrangements must be in place for the machines to be checked regularly by station staff and any faults put right quickly. Arrangements must be in place for any 'permit to travel' machine to be switched on when the ticket office is closed, temporarily unstaffed, or when long queues build up.

4.14 In exceptional circumstances, an operator may not need to provide a second way of selling tickets, if the ticket office is open at all times when trains are running and suitable arrangements have been made to deal with problems such as staff sickness, for example, through a system of stand-by staff who can be sent to any ticket office which does not open when it should.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5#a1019

SRA = (former) Strategic Rail Authority. When it was abolished responsibility for Penalty Fares moved to the DfT.

 

[313103]

I would like to know if you could purchase a ticket from Hitchin to Stevenage from the machine why could you not purchase from the same machine a ticket from Hitchin to Hatfield?

 

[bnm]

I would like to know if you could purchase a ticket from Hitchin to Stevenage from the machine why could you not purchase from the same machine a ticket from Hitchin to Hatfield?

Err.... suggest you read the OP.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would like to know if you could purchase a ticket from Hitchin to Stevenage from the machine why could you not purchase from the same machine a ticket from Hitchin to Hatfield?

The machine wouldn't accept their card and the OP only had enough cash for a Hitchin to Stevenage ticket.

 

[clagmonster]

Rail-Britain, whilst I know little about the law, I would suspect that FCC would be seeking a criminal prosecution as the letter mentioned in the first post stated that a consequence of not paying the £50 could be a prison sentence, which I wouldn't have thought could arise from a civil matter. I would imagine that in a civil case all that could be awarded would be the penalty fare and any legal costs, which I doubt would come to £1000. Perhaps someone could clarify.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The FCC passenger charter states:
"When buying a ticket from our ticket offices
you should not have to queue for more than five minutes
during peak periods or more than three minutes at other
times."
This is clarified:
"the definition of peak and
off-peak times are displayed at each station"
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/cms/passengers_charter_v5.pdf

So assuming the passenger was travelling in the peak, it would not be unreasonable to expect to travel on a train if arriving in the booking office say 10 minutes before departure, giving 5 minutes queueing time, 2 minutes to purchase the ticket and 3 minutes to walk to the platform and board the train.

I also note from the Stations Made Easy facility, that Hitchin has five self service ticket machines, all of which accept cards and three of which accept cash. For all of these to fail to accept the card, I would suspect a wider system failure, perhaps in the internet connection to the station, which would explain the long booking office queues, or perhaps a problem at Peersure's bank.

I would advise Peeksure to attempt to obtain a copy of the CCTV relatively quickly, which would show him trying to use all of the machines with his card and also queuing for at leas three minues, or if it was off-peak then 5 minutes. If FCC provide the CCTV, then assuming these things happened, I would hope the case would be thrown out. If they don't and they don't provide a decent explanation, then I would imagine a magistrate would look at this disfavourably. I would advise though that you ask for the CCTV fairly quickly as many companies delete it after a period of time. If they don't give it to you, ask for that in writing. Remember, I have no legal training.

 

[Greenback]

It's not only your opinion. It closely corresponds with the Department for Transport's Penalty Fares Policy.SRA = (former) Strategic Rail Authority. When it was abolished responsibility for Penalty Fares moved to the DfT.

There's nothing there to give any advice for exceptional circumstances, though, which worries me a bit! Suppose the station is not normally busy? As has been mentioned, if there is a system failure meaning that none of the machines accept cards, this will cause a build up at the ticket window leading to queues at that particular time which don't occur normally. Maybe half an hour later the problem had been resolved and things were back to normal!

I would have hoped that in such circumstances, where the ticket window couldn;t cope, common sense would prevail at any TOC and they would suspend penalty fares for the duration. However, I think it was jonmorris who previously had problems at a station where the ticket office was temporarily closed, the TVM not working and he still wasn't allowed through the barrier and told he had to wait for the office to reopen...so there doesn't seem much hope for common sense really!

 

[jon0844]

I suspect that if the OP makes it quite clear to FCC that they intend to fight this in court, and details all the reasons for doing so (including quoting the DfT guidelines) that this will be magically dropped as a 'goodwill gesture'. If you bought a ticket as far as you could afford with cash, when you intended to pay by card, then they'll struggle to prove you intended to defraud them. If there was no permit to travel machine, you've done the very next best thing.

Part of me says - go all the way and force a ruling, but if FCC drops the case then you can't force them to! A victory for the OP, but not for the others who are being treated like this. I've seen all four TVMs at Hatfield being out of service in some way or another on a Monday morning (usually having run out of tickets) or only accepting exact money. This leads to queues that are easily 10 minutes long, or more. The permit to travel machines have been removed, so aren't an option.

Some gateline staff will sell tickets in these circumstances, but it very much depends on who is on duty at the time. Some are excellent, and some are - well, see my thread elsewhere!!

I've been at Hatfield where the ticket offices were closed (staff break) and the TVMs were either out of paper stock or not accepting coins. Even then, the member of staff at the gateline was refusing to sell tickets or let people through to buy a ticket somewhere along the way! Basically, you couldn't travel until the member of staff came back on duty.

Mind you, this morning, there was a LONG queue (a group of tourists I'd presume) that were trying to buy tickets and being told that they couldn't buy them until 0930. Now, I always thought you could buy an off-peak ticket before 0930, and given there are gates in operation, nobody could use them before anyway.

What's even more odd is that some people on other days DO try and use off-peak tickets and get stopped at the gates, so they're obviously being sold them early. And, given there's an 0927 train that allows off-peak tickets to be used - it does show that FCC does need some more training for staff.

 

[cuccir]

Mind you, this morning, there was a LONG queue (a group of tourists I'd presume) that were trying to buy tickets and being told that they couldn't buy them until 0930. Now, I always thought you could buy an off-peak ticket before 0930, and given there are gates in operation, nobody could use them before anyway.

What's even more odd is that some people on other days DO try and use off-peak tickets and get stopped at the gates, so they're obviously being sold them early. And, given there's an 0927 train that allows off-peak tickets to be used - it does show that FCC does need some more training for staff.

You can buy any ticket at any time. It's the purchaser's responsibility to use the ticket properly. A member of staff should advise the purchaser that they can't use the ticket at that time, but you can - or should be able to - buy them...

 

[yorkie]

Mind you, this morning, there was a LONG queue (a group of tourists I'd presume) that were trying to buy tickets and being told that they couldn't buy them until 0930. Now, I always thought you could buy an off-peak ticket before 0930, and given there are gates in operation, nobody could use them before anyway.

FCC are wrong, as usual!

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

"Buy any time, travel off-peak"

it does show that FCC does need some more training for staff.

I agree, but where is the incentive?

What percentage of staff know their rights? 1% - if that?

What percentage will complain? 0.1% maybe?

They know they can get away with it, so they don't bother.

I've heard from FCC staff just how bad the company is, and from what I hear, it really is bad. So bad that this is almost believable.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The machine wouldn't accept their card and the OP only had enough cash for a Hitchin to Stevenage ticket.

One other question which I cannot see raised anywhere is what type of card the OP was using? The Railway industry generally, but with a few exceptions, does not take Solo or Electron cards at any location - even TVM's. I know most machines round here advertise that fact fairly clearly. If the OP had used cash to pay a short fare knowing that his Solo / Electron card would not work on the machines then it could be argued that a PF was appropriate.

 

[Failed Unit]

One other question which I cannot see raised anywhere is what type of card the OP was using? The Railway industry generally, but with a few exceptions, does not take Solo or Electron cards at any location - even TVM's. I know most machines round here advertise that fact fairly clearly. If the OP had used cash to pay a short fare knowing that his Solo / Electron card would not work on the machines then it could be argued that a PF was appropriate.

I see your point, but if I turn up with a station with a £20 note I would never put it in a TVM for fear of never seeing it again. I may have a credit card but it is my choice if I use it or not. I wait in a queue for 15 minutes, but decide to leave to catch my train as I don't want to wait 30 minutes for the next train (which may be cancelled who knows). Surely I am in my right to pay on the train in this situation? South Eastern certainly agreed with me, the person at the gate let me through and the gaurd on the train sold me the ticket and provided the gold card discount no questions asked. know it is hard to draw the line. It is like in the days of WAGN 10p in the permit machine avoids the penalty fare but gives you a cheap ride if you get to the end of the line.

 

[Greenback]

One other question which I cannot see raised anywhere is what type of card the OP was using? The Railway industry generally, but with a few exceptions, does not take Solo or Electron cards at any location - even TVM's. I know most machines round here advertise that fact fairly clearly. If the OP had used cash to pay a short fare knowing that his Solo / Electron card would not work on the machines then it could be argued that a PF was appropriate.

That is a fair point, but we don't know all the details and the Op hasn;t been back with any further info!

I accept there are those who might deliberately carry only an Electron or Solo card and try to use the fact that these cards aren't accepted as an excuse for not having a ticket, but again, most people would simply pay the penalty when caught. The OP seems genuinely aggrieved, and I am giving them the benefit of the doubt!

I see your point, but if I turn up with a station with a £20 note I would never put it in a TVM for fear of never seeing it again. I may have a credit card but it is my choice if I use it or not. I wait in a queue for 15 minutes, but decide to leave to catch my train as I don't want to wait 30 minutes for the next train (which may be cancelled who knows). Surely I am in my right to pay on the train in this situation? South Eastern certainly agreed with me, the person at the gate let me through and the gaurd on the train sold me the ticket and provided the gold card discount no questions asked. know it is hard to draw the line. It is like in the days of WAGN 10p in the permit machine avoids the penalty fare but gives you a cheap ride if you get to the end of the line.

I agree with you. To me, it all comes down to whether the TOC is doing everything it reasonably can to assist the customer to buy a ticket. I fail to see why, in the circumstances described, a ticket couldn't have been sold at either of the barriers.

 

[peeksure]

Thanks to all of those that replied. Most have been very helpful. I will contact the watchdogs you suggest.

Some of the posts, however, have implied that I intended to avoid the fare. To clarify, my card (Visa) is one I have used many times at the station. I tried at all 4 machines and none were accepting my card although some were accepting money. There was only one (out of three) ticket office open and a long queue had formed because a lot of people were having the same problem (cards not being accepted by machines). I arrived at the station about 10 minutes before my train (due at 9.33am). I queued for about five minutes and as the queue barely moved I then asked the staff at the ticket barriers if I could buy a ticket there. I had actually done this about two weeks previously when ALL machines were broken and NO ticket offices were open because the member of staff was on their break. Although this is quite rare problems with machines do often take place at Hitchin Station and I have seen many faulty machines. It is not a big station and long queues usually form. On this particular day though the staff at the barrier said they couldn’t sell me a ticket because a ticket office was open! An announcement for my train was made and I purchased a ticket to Stevenage with the only money I did have. I had to get on that train because I had a business meeting in Hatfield. The next train was 30 minutes later and I would have been delayed for the meeting. I intended to explain my situation at Hatfield or on the train if a ticket inspector came on.

There are barriers both at Hitchin and Hatfield so it would have been impossible to avoid the fare altogether! Furthermore, I did pay my fare at Hatfield but the inspector also fined me (I do have his ID number).

I will ask for records and a copy of the CCTV. It would be great to locate the people in the queue who had similar problems but this would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Hundreds if not thousands of people commute from Hitchin everyday. I wouldn’t even remember what these people looked like now but CCTV would show all of this!

I do think FCC treat people like s***. You can’t charge extortionate fares, have inadequate facilities and treat your customers like this. One part of me wants to pay the £50 because this is not worth the hassle. The other part wants to show that I tried to buy a ticket that day but had so many difficulties in doing so that I had done nothing wrong. After reading all of your posts I do think it was very unfair for FCC to fine me because if you look at all of the rules relating to queuing and having adequate facilities they are in the wrong.

 

[Failed Unit]

The next train was 30 minutes later and I would have been delayed for the meeting. I intended to explain my situation at Hatfield or on the train if a ticket inspector came on.
.

Or the next train could have been cancelled, a train on a platform and all of that. I think what you did was perfectly reasonable in the circumstances, what else could have done hurdled the barriers at both ends!

 

[Greenback]

I don;t thin k you should pay the £50. If FCC don't want to pay for adequate ticket office staffing, or for on train staff, then the least they can do is to allow people through the barriers when the system goes wrong.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody fined you, it was a penalty fare and you could have refused it. That's what I intend to do if I get 'caught' again.

Surely they didn't sell you the Stevenage to Hatfield ticket AND give you a £20 penalty? Or do you mean you paid what was the correct fare out of the £20 and then left the rest for the appeal?

I know it's easy to say, as it isn't me (this time), but please don't cave in and pay up. if everything you have said is totally true then take it all the way. See if FCC gives up. I am certain they will, in order to avoid this being 'tested', but even if they do - there will be a record here about what they, and other TOCs, do.

FCC has still not, and presumably never will, apologised to me for how they treated me - but I did at least win and get a refund cheque.

 

[Greenback]

From what's said on here, FCC seem very poor at how they administer their PF's. How can we go about trying to get their PF authority withdrawn?

 

[jon0844]

FCC has nothing to do with the appeals process; it's managed by a company owned by SouthEastern I believe.

If you win the appeal, First is told to give you a cheque which the accounts department does, so no apology or anything.

 

[Greenback]

I meant that as FCC have to get authority from DfT to have penalty fares in the first place, is there any way to get the authority withdrawn? Perhaps on the grounds that they are issuing them icnorrectly, as in your case, or are in breach of the regulatiosn that john@home posted earlier?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As always this is never a clear cut case. From the information presented my gut feeling is that the OP should not have been charged a PF, however I do not work in a PF area and am not fully conversant with all the fine print.

I do believe that the operator should provide adequate ticket facilities at stations, and I know here at First TPE if there are booking office or ticket machine problems we get a text message from control saying "Revenue Information : Due to long queues / faulty machines etc please sell a full range of tickets from X station", thus giving us Guards and the RPOs the information so we can offer the full range of fares rather than charge the full fare Anytime fares only.

However, the fact that the OP has gone through a gateline by purchasing a ticket for a shorter journey than he intended to make does confuse matters somewhat.

I think that is what is called a Compulsory Ticket area, and as such Byelaw 17 applies:

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

It could be argued that by deliberately buying a ticket for a journey shorter than intended the OP was foul of (1).

Furthermore, the Revenue Protection section of the fares manual says:

Neither a queue at a ticket office nor the customer's late arrival at the station (unless a Train Company is clearly at fault) is a valid reason for a customer to board a train without having bought a ticket or paid any excess fares

And of course, a bit like a parking fine which is passed to a debt collector by a council, FCC (and others) pass the debt on to Revenue Protection Support services in Portsmouth who deal with the matter.

It is certainly a difficult one to call, and as stated my gut instinct is that a PF should not have been charged.

 

[A60K]

There's also a condition in the NCoC that says (paraphrasing, sorry, on my way out!) if a passenger cannot purchase the exact ticket they need then to buy a ticket for part of the journey and pay whatever extra is necessary at the earliest reasonable opportunity.

Obviously this is a bit of a grey area, but if I were running a business then I would give my customer the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst. There are blatent attempts at fare dodging that I see on my local line and many of the RPIs just end up letting the *******s off because they show 'attitude' - they'll stick to relatively 'safe' targets who sometimes have a genuine reason for not having a ticket, which morally stinks. It should either be everybody or nobody.

 

[b0b]

There's also a condition in the NCoC that says (paraphrasing, sorry, on my way out!) if a passenger cannot purchase the exact ticket they need then to buy a ticket for part of the journey and pay whatever extra is necessary at the earliest reasonable opportunity.

Section 3: Where the full range of tickets is not available

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey.

Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.


however: the OP admits that the ticket office was open, so he did have the opportunity to purchase the correct ticket. the NCOC says nothing about having to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

 

[Mojo]

I think that is what is called a Compulsory Ticket area, and as such Byelaw 17 applies:

Not necessarily. A compulsory ticket area has to be explicitly defined within the particular penalty fares scheme, although I cannot find information on FCC's website on which stations are designated compulsory ticket areas it should be noted that having gates and the platforms being designated a compulsory ticket area are two different things; you can have gates and not a compulsory ticket area, or the other way around.

In any case, having something designated a compulsory ticket area is not the be all and end all; I can think of at least one station designated such but where it is unenforcable due to inadequate signage, similarly one which is unenforcable due to at certain times ticket issuing facilities not existing.