Advice needed: Penalty fares notice-court action

[peeksure]

I have been threatened by the Revenue Protection Support Services saying that they will take me to court.

I travelled from Hitchin to Hatfield last month on FCC. This is what happened: I went to Hitchin Station. I only had my credit card and little change. Every machine at the station wasn’t accepting cards. A couple of the machines were broken and the others I tried didn’t accept my card. This is not surprising as the machines are usually faulty at Hitchin Station. There was only one ticket office open and a long queue had formed. Other people in the queue had the same problem. The people at the back of the queue had been there for over 10 minutes. I waited for a while but then my train arrived. I quickly bought a single to Stevenage station using the money I had from the machine and intended to pay the rest of the fare in Hatfield (using my card). I got on the train and when I reached Hatfield a ticket inspector fined me for not having a ticket. I explained my situation and he said he was fully aware of the faulty machines and that I should appeal my case and everything should be ok.

I received a penalty fares notice and made an appeal. I detailed all difficulties in purchasing a ticket and my appeal was rejected. None of the things I mentioned were addressed. They merely sent a generic letter which said ‘your appeal has been rejected’.

I have now received a letter from the Revenue Protection Support Services stating that I “was to travel on the railway without having previously paid their fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof under 5.3.a of the Regulations of Railways Act 1889.” I am being threatened with 3 months imprisonment or a £1000 fine. My fare has now risen to £50 with ‘admin’ costs.

This whole situation is frustrating because I did intend to buy a ticket and detailed all difficulties in my appeal. The machines weren’t accepting cards and the queue was too long. I have read on other forums that customers should not have to queue longer than 5 minutes.

There is no proof that I intended to avoid the fare. There are ticket barriers at both stations so there is no way I could avoid the fare. Also if the CCTV is checked then they will see me trying to buy a valid ticket at various machines!

What can I do here? Will the Revenue Protection Support Services actually take me to court? Is there anyone else I can complain to about this? Thanks for advice in advance.

 

[John @ home]

What can I do here? Will the Revenue Protection Support Services actually take me to court? Is there anyone else I can complain to about this?

Go to London Travelwatch. Their role is to investigate suggestions and complaints from users who are dissatisfied with the response received from the service provider. Their remit covers transport in and around London including the Underground, the National Rail network, London's bus network, Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink, taxis and other users of the Greater London Road Network. Their area includes both Hitchin and Hatfield.

They have been particularly concerned recently with protecting the innocent passenger charged a Penalty Fare. See this January 2010 press release and their response to the Department for Transport's Penalty Fares review.

One item they are particularly concerned about is the imposition of administrative charges during the appeals process, which is done by one of the two penalty fares appeal bodies but not the other.

In cases where an appeal is made, it should be accepted that on receipt of the initial appeal that no administrative charges will be applied (by the appeal body or any debt collection agency on behalf of the train operator) if the appeal is received within the required period, until the appeal is resolved in the first instance. (This is the system currently used by IAS but not IPFAS). Effectively this is ‘stopping the clock’. However, once an appeal has been determined then the ‘clock’ should start again, and the appellant be required to pay the Penalty Fare or any outstanding fare in the remaining time.
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/4026/get

 

[Ferret]

I have been threatened by the Revenue Protection Support Services saying that they will take me to court.

I travelled from Hitchin to Hatfield last month on FCC. This is what happened: I went to Hitchin Station. I only had my credit card and little change. Every machine at the station wasn’t accepting cards. A couple of the machines were broken and the others I tried didn’t accept my card. This is not surprising as the machines are usually faulty at Hitchin Station. There was only one ticket office open and a long queue had formed. Other people in the queue had the same problem. The people at the back of the queue had been there for over 10 minutes. I waited for a while but then my train arrived. I quickly bought a single to Stevenage station using the money I had from the machine and intended to pay the rest of the fare in Hatfield (using my card). I got on the train and when I reached Hatfield a ticket inspector fined me for not having a ticket. I explained my situation and he said he was fully aware of the faulty machines and that I should appeal my case and everything should be ok.

I received a penalty fares notice and made an appeal. I detailed all difficulties in purchasing a ticket and my appeal was rejected. None of the things I mentioned were addressed. They merely sent a generic letter which said ‘your appeal has been rejected’.

I have now received a letter from the Revenue Protection Support Services stating that I “was to travel on the railway without having previously paid their fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof under 5.3.a of the Regulations of Railways Act 1889.” I am being threatened with 3 months imprisonment or a £1000 fine. My fare has now risen to £50 with ‘admin’ costs.

This whole situation is frustrating because I did intend to buy a ticket and detailed all difficulties in my appeal. The machines weren’t accepting cards and the queue was too long. I have read on other forums that customers should not have to queue longer than 5 minutes.

There is no proof that I intended to avoid the fare. There are ticket barriers at both stations so there is no way I could avoid the fare. Also if the CCTV is checked then they will see me trying to buy a valid ticket at various machines!

What can I do here? Will the Revenue Protection Support Services actually take me to court? Is there anyone else I can complain to about this? Thanks for advice in advance.

Incredible! I'm all for faredodgers being chinged in Court under that Act, but if you've done everything you reasonably can to purchase a ticket then you clearly aren't a fare dodger! I'm tempted to say have your day in Court, they haven't a hope in hell of winning that case. I'd also complain to FCC about the RPI. If he was aware of the ticket machines being u/s, why did he go ahead with the Penalty Fare? It was a straightforward over-distance excess that was required which I trust you'd have been happy to pay at the time.

 

[466.networkers]

Surely it is FCC's responsibility to ensure that the ticket machines are working?

Hope you win if you go to court peeksure.

 

[rail-britain]

Before proceeding to court
Obtain details of the availability and working order status of the ticket issuing machines at the stations involved
Do NOT give specific days, ask for the details per day over a range
Where a machine is recorded as not working, to also include on what date the machine was operating correctly again

So if you travelled on 18 May, ask for details from 10 May to 23 May inculsive

 

[asylumxl]

Hopefully if you bring this to the attention of the relevant people this should go away and you will not end up in court. Lets just say a few FCC Revenue Protection Officers sour what are generally an alright crowd, from experience. I've had a fair few arguments.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . and when I reached Hatfield a ticket inspector fined me for not having a ticket. I explained my situation and he said he was fully aware of the faulty machines and that I should appeal my case and everything should be ok.

This part of your post interests me.
I bet you're wishing you'd asked for his name or even asked him to write down his interpretation for you. But I'm guessing you didn't.

If you're a regular traveller on that route, do you see him ocassionally? If so, could you then get his ID? Do you know what company he worked for?
its possible that with enough info about where he was on what time then he might be traceable and therefore become a witness.

Please don't feel that the statements you've received are "threats" which is a term you used twice. The first (the option of going to court if you do not accept the £50 fee) is just that, its another option, which some people actually quite look forward to, especially if they're confident that they'll suceed and claim costs! The second, (the penalty for a successful prosecution) is a statement of fact; its the maximum penalty (your letter presumably told you that its the highest limit) which a Court is able to award (and they would consider your "means" and any previous convictions before deciding the actual penalty (if you lost). You should use these bits of info to help you decide which option to take. You could just pay the £50 and end it now.

But if you wish to pursue it, then the others on here have already given some advice to start with, and will surely continue to advise. The quality of your evidence and facts which can be verified might be crucial, and if you can go back to gather more supporting evidence from other passengers, from rail staff or even from the machine's maintenance company, then its all going to be supportive to your argument.

 

[yorkie]

FCC are a dodgy company who break the rules and treat both passengers and their staff like crap continually. They should be in court. The PF inspectors are sometimes people of dubious character, unknowledgable and rude, this has been documented in the incident reported here by jonmorris0844 (my words not his, but I stand by them).

I think these people may be able to help:-

http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/

But be sure to also go to London Travelwatch. I'd contact London Travelwatch, the unofficial Penalty Fare appeal, Passenger Focus and I'd also be contacting the local press.

I'd be up for organising a collection for funds to defend your case in court if it came to it.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm not going to post names here, but I've got an idea of who they could possibly be, as a regular FCC user there's a few folk who continually pop up...

 

[paul1609]

I think the rules are quite clear board the train without a valid ticket and you will get a penalty fare from the penalty fare leaflet:

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without
a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to
buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket
machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of
buying and tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from
ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

I think you should pay up before you get in to more trouble.

 

[Matt Taylor]

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without
a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to
buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket
machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of
buying and tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from
ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

I think you should pay up before you get in to more trouble.

I think he shouldn't. Passengers charter standards for queueing are 3 minutes off peak and 5 minutes during peak, people had already been queueing for 10 minutes. TVMs were provided but were not working, even the RPI admitted there was a problem and yet still chinged him which I find ridiculous.

Queues at my station frequently get out of hand and if there are also issues with the TVMs we phone up control to advise revenue staff to use discretion, I don't see why FCC cannot do something similar here.

 

[Greenback]

I think the rules are quite clear board the train without a valid ticket and you will get a penalty fare from the penalty fare leaflet:

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without
a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to
buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket
machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of
buying and tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from
ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

I think you should pay up before you get in to more trouble.

Please define reasonable, especially when there is only one window open and the ticket machines are not functioning correctly. 10 minutes? 15? 30? FCC might just as well have closed the window completely, and then fined everyone who couldn't buy a ticket using their cards. What a great money spinnerthat would be!

Let's be very clear about this. FCC should ensure that their ticket machines are working properly before they issue penalty fares. They should ensure that their ticket offices are properly staffed ebfore they issue penalty fares. But these thigns cost money, and First don;t like spending money.

Another thing, the burden of proof lies on the prosecution. It should not be up to the accused to supply evidence that the machines were not working, or that the office was not fully staffed. FCC should have to prove intent, which they could do if there was CCTV footage of the customer arriving at the station and making no effort to buy a ticket, and by supplying data showing that all TVM's were in perfect working order, and that there was no queue at the ticket office because it was staffed by x number of people at that time.

That's the way it should work, but FCC obviously hope that most innocent people will just pay the £50 as they are afraid of the perceived stigma of going to court. I would say bring it on, and I want to see you prove that I didn't try and use the machines, that there wasn't a long queue at the booking office, that more than one window was open and so on. I have no doubt that they would back down, but if not I would enjoy the chance to draw attention to their failings in a public forum!

 

[rail-britain]

the burden of proof lies on the prosecution. It should not be up to the accused to supply evidence that the machines were not working

As a civil matter there shouldn't be a prosecutor present

It's all too easy for the claimant to stand up in court and simply state "On X date the ticket machines were working, here are our records"
Not independently checked
Equally, the machine may not have been reported as faulty for some time
The machine may only be accepting one type of payment

However, if the defendant has also applied to the operator of the station and the report is different the court will be suspicious of any further evidence or statements provided by the claimant

 

[north]

I think the rules are quite clear board the train without a valid ticket and you will get a penalty fare from the penalty fare leaflet:

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without
a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to
buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket
machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of
buying and tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from
ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

I think you should pay up before you get in to more trouble.

From the Penalty Fares policy.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5 ]4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33).

Although strictly true that the penalty fare rules do not allow queues as an excuse if FCC reguarly imposed a PF in the circumstances as described by the OP they could lose their right to have a penalty fare scheme because of the dft policy above. A quick letter quoting the above rules should do it.

 

[Greenback]

In theory at least, it is up to the person bringing the action to prove their case, rather than the person defending the action to prove theirs. If this was not the case, there would be even larger numbers of vexatious and pointless claims than there are now!

Of course, it would not hurt anyone to be well prepared and have evidence in support of their position. And as you say, if there was a disagreement on matters of fact, it would not help FCC's case!

 

[alan1950]

My only experience with Scotrail is that if a booking office is closed and ticket machine not available you can purchase most types of ticket from the ticket inspector.
If you could have bought a ticket and didn't a lot depends in the inspectors discretion.
Usually if they are imposing the rules you will be charged full fare and not off peak.
Common sense seems to apply in this part of the world and most inspectors use their discretion.
The only time I have fallen foul of a ticket inspector who insisted on applying the rules I got off at the next stop and bought ticket to travel on the following train.
I complained to Scotrail by email as I felt I had a case.
My reason for not buying a ticket was that it was blowing a blizzard and using the ticket machine was hazardous.
Scotrail send me a goodwill payment of £5.00 only because they failed to reply within their agreed timescale.
They still applied their rules.
If you are having major problems with your TOC try your local MP.
Mine was very helpful.
But he was Secretary of State for Scotland at time
Good luck
Alan
East Renfrewshire

 

[DaveNewcastle]

the burden of proof lies on the prosecution. It should not be up to the accused to supply evidence that the machines were not working

As a civil matter there shouldn't be a prosecutor present

Eh?

There are two parties to a civil action in the Courts of England and Wales. The one bringing the action to the Court is the Claimant or Prosecution, and the one against whom the acion is brought is the Defendant.
If there isn't a representative to prosecute the claim then the Court will abandon it and send the defendant home, blameless.
(Where did you get that idea from?)

 

[paul1609]

Sorry, but something here doesn't quite ring right. Hitchin is a fairly major station with a ticket office (from memory 6?) fast ticket machines and ticket barriers. The fact that people were queuing for over 10 mins kinda of implies that it was at peak times.
Whilst the passenger charters may have targets for queuing times they are never going to be able to achieve that 100% of the time and the fact that the target is not being achieved at anyone time does not give the passenger the right to travel for free.
I'm afraid I agree with FCC on this one, Jonmorris's case was rather different.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry, but something here doesn't quite ring right. Hitchin is a fairly major station with a ticket office (from memory 6?) fast ticket machines and ticket barriers. The fact that people were queuing for over 10 mins kinda of implies that it was at peak times.
Whilst the passenger charters may have targets for queuing times they are never going to be able to achieve that 100% of the time and the fact that the target is not being achieved at anyone time does not give the passenger the right to travel for free.
I'm afraid I agree with FCC on this one, Jonmorris's case was rather different.

No it doesn't but you don't know how many windows were open peak or not. I often find TOC like to penalty fare passengers to make up for thier own shortcomings.

 

[Dreadnought]

From my point of view the problem is that we do not have enough facts from peeksure about this journey.

I would like to know

What time of day were they travelling
How long before the train did they arrive at the station?
How many people were in this 'long' queue?
Did they speak to the member of staff manning the gates to see if they could sell them a ticket for the journey?

As an example of the last one I was at Watford Junction just after the off peak had started and none of the TVMs would sell an off peak travelcard. I spoke to someone who rather than telling me to join the queue for the booking office windows actually directed me through the barrier to the side window normally used for people who have arrived without tickets to purchase one there and still catch my intended train.

I have also been at Cheltenham Spa, I was travelling travelling to Bristol, when there was a 'lenghty' queue with only one window and one TVM working. However, rather than travel without a ticket I actually stayed in the queue (it took nearly 15mins to get a ticket) and missed the train I intended to travel on. Could peeksure not have done this to avoid the threat of a Penalty Fare situation?

 

[Greenback]

No it doesn't but you don't know how many windows were open peak or not. I often find TOC like to penalty fare passengers to make up for thier own shortcomings.

Exactly, if you take the OP's word for it there was only one window open. I can believe this as most TOC's seem determined to reduce ticket office levels, especially if they have been denied permission to reduce the hours to make savings that way.

Even when I worked in Reading ten years ago, we often only had 2 or 3 positions out of 9 open in the early afternoon, and it was rare indeed that all 9 were atually open at the same time. Even if we had a full team on, which wasn't often, there were breaks and shift changes to consider.

Add to this the fact that the TVM's weren't taking cards and what is the traveller supposed to do? Hang around for 30 minutes or more just because FCC want to save money? The OP may not be telling the truth, but I wonder if they were lying whether they wouldn't just pay up rather than make a fuss, knowing they were guilty?

 

[alan1950]

Contact Railway Magazine, Railway Herald, Local & National Press
Ask your MP for help

 

[Aictos]

I think the rules are quite clear board the train without a valid ticket and you will get a penalty fare from the penalty fare leaflet:

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without
a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to
buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket
machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of
buying and tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from
ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

I think you should pay up before you get in to more trouble.

Yes but in the FCC timetables it does say and I quote:

If for any reason the ticket purchasing facilities
are unavailable (including the Permit to Travel machine, if
present), our on-train Revenue Protection staff will be made
aware of the problem and will sell you the most appropriate
ticket for your journey without imposing a Penalty Fare.

Therefore as the OP had stated that the TVMs were faulty and the RPI was aware of this then a PF should have not been charged but rather the most appropriate ticket for your journey.

Staff are made aware of issues that arise like this with advice from FCC to their staff advising of issues at stations and to use discretion when issuing PFs from the affected station.

Representing passengers

Customer Relations
FREEPOST (RRBR-REEJ-KTKY)
First Capital Connect Customer Relations Department
PO Box 443
PLYMOUTH
PL4 6WP
Telephone: 0845 026 4700
Fax: 0845 676 9904
Email: customer.relations.fcc@firstgroup.com
Open 7 days a week, from 0700 to 2200, except Christmas Day.

We try to provide the very highest quality response to problems you raise with us. However, if you are not satisfied with our reply, you can contact Passenger Focus or London TravelWatch. These organisations have been set up by the Government to represent rail passengers’ interests and they may be able to help. They are independent of train companies and serve as passenger ‘watchdogs’.

If the problem occurred between Brighton and Three Bridges (inclusive), or between Hitchin and Peterborough/King’s Lynn (inclusive) contact:

Passenger Focus
FREEPOST (RRRE-ETTC-LEET)
PO BOX 4257
Manchester
M60 3AR
Telephone: 0300 123 2350
Fax: 0845 850 1392
Email: info@passengerfocus.org.uk
Web: passengerfocus.org.uk
Open Mon-Fri 0800-2000, Sat-Sun 0800-1600

If the problem occurred between Stevenage and London (inclusive), between Bedford and Gatwick Airport (inclusive) or between Blackfriars and Sutton/Wimbledon, contact:

London TravelWatch
6 Middle Street
London
EC1A 7JA
Telephone: 020 7505 9000
Fax: 020 7505 9003
Email: enquiries@londontravelwatch.org.uk
Web: londontravelwatch.org.uk
Open Mon-Fri 0930-1700

One thing that puzzles me is as the gateline would have been manned depending on the OPs time of travel, why not ask the staff if they could sell the ticket?

 

[Dreadnought]

Yes but in the FCC timetables it does say and I quote:

If for any reason the ticket purchasing facilities
are unavailable (including the Permit to Travel machine, if
present), our on-train Revenue Protection staff will be made
aware of the problem and will sell you the most appropriate
ticket for your journey without imposing a Penalty Fare.

Therefore as the OP had stated that the TVMs were faulty and the RPI was aware of this then a PF should have not been charged but rather the most appropriate ticket for your journey.

The OP did state though that he purchased a ticket from Hitchin - Stevenage with the cash he had from a TVM just as his train arrived so they were working to a degree.

 

[rail-britain]

The one bringing the action to the Court is the Claimant or Prosecution

This is a civil matter so the case is brought by the claimant
If the case is a criminal matter then the case is brought by the prosecution
It is very rare for the crown to raise a civil matter and hence there wouldn't be a prosecutor present in such a case

 

[Greenback]

The OP did state though that he purchased a ticket from Hitchin - Stevenage with the cash he had from a TVM just as his train arrived so they were working to a degree.

He said they were not taking cards, and he didn't have enough cash for the ticket he wanted.

Would someone be better off by not buying a ticket at all? Is there more chance their explanation would be believed? Does buying a part ticket actually give the impression that you are being a fare evader, even if you are just trying not to travel without a ticket?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If they take you to court over this, go to a small claims court in order to get your money back. Or report them to ATOC, or email FCC and ask to speak to thier head of Ticketing, Stations and Whatever etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Contact Railway Magazine, Railway Herald, Local & National Press
Ask your MP for help

that is actually quite good advice. Also put it through to Rail, they may be able to tell you what to do. Barry Doe aswell

 

[222007]

As an RPI myself i know my company send updates to our blackberry so we are fully aware when TVM's and booking offices are closed (assuming the TOC who manages it tells my TOC). If i'm aware of this issue a full range of ticket would be offered. Yes a lot does come down to discression which i'll try to do

 

[paul1609]

He said they were not taking cards, and he didn't have enough cash for the ticket he wanted.

Would someone be better off by not buying a ticket at all? Is there more chance their explanation would be believed? Does buying a part ticket actually give the impression that you are being a fare evader, even if you are just trying not to travel without a ticket?

Hitchin has ticket barriers.

 

[Greenback]

Hitchin has ticket barriers.

There are several possibilities here. The OP has been economical with the truth, and were not intending to pay for their whole journey. Alternatively, they are telling the truth, and the barrier staff would not let people through despite the queue caused by only having one ticket window open. The Op therefore purchased a ticket for some of the journey, presumably to get as far as they could with the cash they did have.

If the former, then most people would say it's a fair cop, and pay the penalty fare.

If the latter, why should customers be inconvenienced and penalised because it's not possible to buy a ticket using the customers only method of payment within 10 minutes? In my view, and it is only my opinion, before penalty fares can be charged, TOC's must be made to ensure that there are sufficient facilities in place to allow customers to purchase tickets with a minimum of fuss.

There are fare evaders, we all know that. I have known a couple personally in my time. They all shrug and pay when they are caught, as they know they are still saving money despite the occasional 'pull'. In this case, the OP has set out their side of the argument in public, which makes me feel, until further information is forthcoming to suggest otherwise, that they may well be telling the truth.