GC fares now a rip-off

[Techniquest]

Hi all,

Copy-pasted from another forum, because I'm too lazy to re-type it all manually:

Anyway, got some gen earlier that there's to be a HST on 1A60, 1N26 and 1A63 tomorrow (that's 0653 Sunderland to Kings Cross, 1127 Kings Cross to Sunderland and 1730 Sunderland to Kings Cross for those not aware). No power car gen, but 067+123 went up on the 1650 Kings Cross to Sunderland apparently today, so most likely those two.

So off I goes to check Advance fare gen to get me to London in the morning to cover 1N26 and 1A62 (1230 Sunderland to Kings Cross) as I'd not be able to get back in time for the last HST to Bath with a connecting train home, if I was to do 1A63. No Advance fares, but £35.55 with Y-P for a Trowbridge to London with travelcard included seemed very reasonable. Now to check the GC fares...

Enter ze relevant origin, destination, date, times and railcard info. An age later, the page with journey opportunities loads. Nearly fell off my chair when I read how much the GC Only Off Peak Return had risen!

Pre-May 23rd 2010, Kings Cross to York GC Only Off Peak Return, with Y-P, was £40.25. Quite reasonable for a 396 mile round trip.

Currently, the same ticket on the same trains costs £45.55. A whopping £5.30 increase!

So I looks at the Kings Cross to Sunderland fare, curious to know how much this would be, again I was nearly blown off the chair:

Pre-May 23rd 2010, Kings Cross to Sunderland GC Only Off Peak Return, with Y-P, was £46.85. For the distance, around 531 miles round trip, this was excellent value.

Currently, the same ticket on the same trains costs £52.15. Also a whopping £5.30 increase!

Now, I was aware they were going up a bit, but not by over a fiver. Especially when you still can't really rely on them actually running!

Obviously, I'm most definitely not bothering tomorrow. It would have been nice to have a proper sounding HST again, but for the ching, it's quite frankly worth me almost completely draining my savings. Especially to have to suffer the indignity of a Rubbishante back from York to Kings Cross.

So, is it just me or do these increase seem off-putting and unfair to anyone else?

 

[4SRKT]

The return if you happen to use the peak service from York to London is £103. I bought this at the booking office the other week, and the woman there actually advised me that the EC open second class fare is the same, with many more trains to choose from. If I hadn't been after Valentas, I would have without doubt gone via EC.

If you've got a far less frequent service, surely you have to differentiate yourself on price. In both directions I travelled on the peak services (farewise) and on both occasions there were loads of seats to spare.

 

[John @ home]

We complained about the GC fares increases on 11th May in this thread.

 

[Techniquest]

Shows how much I read the Fares, Ticketing and Routeing section then doesn't it!

As I say in my opening post, I only noticed the differences today. I agree with yorkie's comments in one of his first posts on the linked thread, I too will not be using GC as much now. I also agree with his comment about whoever is doing the fares is quite simply getting it wrong.

Oh well, GC will be getting just one ching from me in the near future, after that I seriously doubt I'll be bothering to make the cross country trip.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I found surprising was that a Trowbridge to York Off Peak Return, at £86, was only around £5 more than buying a Super Off Peak Return to London with travelcard add-on (£35.55) and a GC Only Kings Cross to York (£45.55). Which obviously allows me to use EC as well as GC, as well as allowing a round trip using XC from Bristol to York (although I'd not do that unless there was a HST on the service of choice).

Just as well I'm not doing the GC moves this weekend, allows me to carry on with trying to beat my personal record between one Valenta and another (currently 4 months and 19 days). Just one week to go to beat that now

 

[yorkie]

The new GC fares are not good value for anyone who isn't either:
- doing a single journey; or
- absolutely certain that GC services suit and booking at short notice

I've got loads of tickets for the Summer from East Coast, as they are a fraction of the GC price, and I can be sure of avoiding an Adelante on 2 engines with no aircon!

I think GC will continue to do well because the popular trains will always be well loaded and they will continue to get plenty of ORCATS revenue. However certain trains will not ever be well loaded because of the pricing policy.

Your best bet is to get some 12/19 quid travelodge rooms (as I have done this Summer) and then do a NE Rover and stick to north of York, which is good value. You would get many more trips for your money, as you could get AP from the S West very cheap if you booked for August.

 

[Techniquest]

Today's Railways UK, in the current issue due to be outdated on Monday, states in the ticketing section that GC only accept the ALR now.

 

[spoony]

Sunderland - York return has gone up from £16 to £17 which I use quite regularly and on a whim. Im happy enough with that price especially as a walk on fare. However a return to London on their off peak service is now £80 I think. Until they can compete price wise for advance bookings with East Coast I cant justify paying the extra. They really could do with some discounted advance booking system.

 

[142094]

Today's Railways UK, in the current issue due to be outdated on Monday, states in the ticketing section that GC only accept the ALR now.

Wonder if that is true or not.

 

[Jordy]

Hopefully not, will ruin a lot of peoples plans for the last summer of Valentas (for now anyway!)

 

[4SRKT]

Sunderland - York return has gone up from £16 to £17 which I use quite regularly and on a whim. Im happy enough with that price especially as a walk on fare. However a return to London on their off peak service is now £80 I think. Until they can compete price wise for advance bookings with East Coast I cant justify paying the extra. They really could do with some discounted advance booking system.

I'm not surprised you're happy enough since GC fares north of York are cheaper than the competition. My mate hopped on a GC southbound at Thirsk the other evening, and didn't get gripped. He then paid a staggering £8.80 single from York to Thirsk on the TPE to get back. The GC fares Thirsk > York are £3 single and £4 return, and you don't even have to look at a 185, never mind ride in one of them.

 

[rail-britain]

Virtually all the main TOCs are going back to "our tickets only" policies
Equally, with the hidden price increases from the fares simplification such tickets have vastly increased in price

Another example is :
Glasgow - Preston Virgin Trains Only
2008 / 2009 £22.00 single First Class Advance
2010 £33.50 single First Class Advance
So a return has gone from £44.00 to £67.00

 

[paul1609]

As GC are a profit making company without subsidy I think from their point of view not offering cheap advance tickets is probably quite sensible. They are better off concentrating on walk up tickets. As they have only a few services a day any sort of advance ticket is to all intents a selected train only service. Offering advance tickets would probably cause considerable revenue extraction from their fares revenue.
GC are better off saying no thanks to Yorkies business Im afraid and letting the heavily subsidised EC operation carry him.

 

[Failed Unit]

As GC are a profit making company without subsidy I think from their point of view not offering cheap advance tickets is probably quite sensible. They are better off concentrating on walk up tickets. As they have only a few services a day any sort of advance ticket is to all intents a selected train only service. Offering advance tickets would probably cause considerable revenue extraction from their fares revenue.
GC are better off saying no thanks to Yorkies business Im afraid and letting the heavily subsidised EC operation carry him.

I guess the could do without their share of ORCATs as well I guess when east coast increase the number of trains on the ECML their profits could be reduced as well? I know they are not doing anything illegal but would they be profitable without the orcats share?

 

[yorkie]

Offering advance tickets would probably cause considerable revenue extraction from their fares revenue.

If they offered cheap tickets on trains they know will be busy then yes. But on the ones that we all know are lightly loaded, no it would not.

GC are better off saying no thanks to Yorkies business Im afraid and letting the heavily subsidised EC operation carry him.

If any company does not want my business they won't get it, and any company that would rather have an empty seat than sell it for 20 pounds can have the seat remain empty if they want!

 

[rail-britain]

This was the whole point of the argument that GNER went to court over
Why should an open access operator "steal" their revenue (between London and York)

There used to be a fine balance between "advance" and "walk on" fares, and it was quite clear if you missed each advance tier you then paid more
However this is no longer so clear with "advance" fares available on some services prior to departure
Equally, where a service is known to busy there are often a reduced number or as we know even nil "advance" tickets

Now that GC is an established service with limited capacity it makes sense to reduce the number of "advance" tickets
However, their trains now seem to have more First Class capacity (sometimes even downgraded to Standard) which seems an unusual decision when you are trying to carry more passengers

 

[leewoods60019]

Grand Central offer very good fares and are too cheap :P on several long routes are most of them are cheaper than other companys

 

[4SRKT]

Grand Central offer very good fares and are too cheap :P on several long routes are most of them are cheaper than other companys

Indeed. They could double some of their fares north of York and still be cheaper than TPE or EC. Maybe this would put a bit more money in the pot and allow them to be slightly cheaper than EC south of York.

 

[paul1609]

If they offered cheap tickets on trains they know will be busy then yes. But on the ones that we all know are lightly loaded, no it would not.


If any company does not want my business they won't get it, and any company that would rather have an empty seat than sell it for 20 pounds can have the seat remain empty if they want!

What profit making company would want to offer a single at £20 when the empty seat earns them £25 in ORCATs distribution of the London to York flow?
(figures for illustration only)

 

[4SRKT]

What profit making company would want to offer a single at £20 when the empty seat earns them £25 in ORCATs distribution of the London to York flow?
(figures for illustration only)

Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but wouldn't they get the £25 whether the seat was empty or not? Therefore the £20 would just be gravy.

 

[paul1609]

Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but wouldn't they get the £25 whether the seat was empty or not? Therefore the £20 would just be gravy.

As I understand it the ORCATS calculation is worked out on the basis of seats available less seats occupied by own TOC tickets so no.

 

[yorkie]

I guess the could do without their share of ORCATs as well I guess when east coast increase the number of trains on the ECML their profits could be reduced as well? I know they are not doing anything illegal but would they be profitable without the orcats share?

I don't think any open access operator could survive by only selling and accepting their own tickets. In effect they would be private charters. It would be unthinkable.

 

[Failed Unit]

As I understand it the ORCATS calculation is worked out on the basis of seats available less seats occupied by own TOC tickets so no.

Could someone just correct my understanding of how ORCAT's works?

I am an open access operator and have a HST which is exactly the same spec as the NXEC ones. I operate 2 return trips per day from Cleethorpes - London via Peterborough.

Between Grimbsy - Lincoln would I get 20% revenue as I have that many of the total trains per day or 50% of the revenue as I provide 50% of the seats per day?

Between Peterborough and London would I get 2/100 of the revenue assuming that FCC and East coast operate between them the other 98. I understand that East Coast gets a larger share of the revenue from Peterborough not only because it operates more trains but because people are more likely to use them because they are faster (I am sure I have read somewhere an overtaken train gets no cash but then why did when WAGN extended all trains to Peterborough it get described as an ORCATS raid)

I know ORCAT's is complicated but can someone explain in idiots terms?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think any open access operator could survive by only selling and accepting their own tickets. In effect they would be private charters. It would be unthinkable.

Sort of but I know in the days of Virgin XC you would get between Edinburgh and York and XC only walk on ticket priced just a bit lower than the inter-operator one, and GNER did the same thing to "stop" the raid. I know the art of open access pick the largest pot you can legally get your mits on, although I am glad HT can stop at Retford, I know it isn't a big pot but it fills the gaps GNER had at the time.

 

[GNERman]

I don't think any open access operator could survive by only selling and accepting their own tickets. In effect they would be private charters. It would be unthinkable.

That wwass the Platinum Trains plan...