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The case for electrifying the Chiltern mainline

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AndrewE

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I seem to recall a Chiltern manager suggesting Aylesbury be 3rd-railed and integrated with Met, thus into Baker St etc. I have no idea what that means in terms of capacity, but I can see it's worth looking at.
I also recall a photo on the wall at Marylebone heading toward Harewood Avenue (?) exit showing tunneling at Lord's and wondering whether there was (or scope for?) another tunnel to the west of existing?
Also scope for rearranging platforms, eg removing lines not at platforms, reducing width of what I guess was once a taxi/ carriage road from Rossmore Street ...? ie Victorian/ Edwardian design criteria.

Any value in disgorging passengers at a new station around Finchley Road (akin to Vauxhall, Stratford?)?
Sorry if any of this is 'old hat' to you- I'm a newbie still ...
No need to apologise.
The 3rd-railing of places like Aylesbury (and other places on the periphery of our 3rd rail networks) is an easy-win for removing diesel-worked trains, obvious to anyone outside a hide-bound civil service department. Unfortunately we have a government department (maybe 2) with absolute control that cannot see the wider picture.
They are so obsessed with not upsetting precedents set by their current superiors (or undermining principles that they have established) that any wider benefits get lost. Hence no extension of any third rail anywhere (whether to Helsby, Wrexham, Preston or anywhere in the southeast) or even minimising risk by allowing evening trains to stop at stations on the Cambrian simply because there was no lighting (ignoring the fact that alternative transport modes were more dangerous, and that that there was no lighting on any of the roads in the area either.)
 
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Railwaysceptic

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All the evidence I've seen (including the investment cases for new, traffic-jam-eliminating road schemes) suggests that removing traffic jams leads to a net increase in traffic and an increase in fuel burned. That's almost the entire point of building new roads.

I see statements like yours posted all the time and it's always very odd. How did this myth come about? Do people think there's a fixed amount of traffic and journeys won't increase if road capacity is increased? But then, if traffic jams don't suppress demand, why would people be so keen to get rid of them?
As I don't know what evidence you've seen, I can't respond directly. However I suggest you think for a few seconds about a by-pass which removes traffic - and traffic queues and air pollution - from a village or small town on a trunk route.

If you really don't know why people want to get rid of traffic jams, then neither I nor anyone else can help you.
 
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Railwaysceptic

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No need to apologise.
The 3rd-railing of places like Aylesbury (and other places on the periphery of our 3rd rail networks) is an easy-win for removing diesel-worked trains, obvious to anyone outside a hide-bound civil service department. Unfortunately we have a government department (maybe 2) with absolute control that cannot see the wider picture.
They are so obsessed with not upsetting precedents set by their current superiors (or undermining principles that they have established) that any wider benefits get lost. Hence no extension of any third rail anywhere (whether to Helsby, Wrexham, Preston or anywhere in the southeast) or even minimising risk by allowing evening trains to stop at stations on the Cambrian simply because there was no lighting (ignoring the fact that alternative transport modes were more dangerous, and that that there was no lighting on any of the roads in the area either.)
Many, many years ago London Underground made it very clear that they have no intention of going back to Aylesbury as it's way out of London, and that is the reason third rail has never been extended on that route. This was decided long before the current national policy of refusing new third rail implementation was formed.
 
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AndrewE

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As I don't know what evidence you've seen, I can't respond directly. However I suggest you think for a few seconds about a by-pass which removes traffic - and traffic queues and air pollution - from a village or small town on a trunk route. If you really don't know why people want to get rid of traffic jams, then neither I nor anyone can help you.
Of course "people want to get rid of traffic jams"
It's a good job that the people making decisions can see a wider picture (and a bit further into the future) than you can.
It's pretty well universally recognised that if a road journey looks as though it has got easier then more people will try it. I have driven car-based holidays that would I never have dreamed of doing if various road upgrades hadn't been done. I bet most people have done the same, and can recognise it too.
If you can't see (or won't admit) that easier driving encourages more of it then no-one can help you.
 
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AndrewE

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Many, many years ago London Underground made it very clear that they have no intention of going back to Aylesbury as it's way out of London, and that is the reason third rail has never been extended on that route. This was decided long before the current national policy of refusing new third rail implementation was formed.
Who said LU would have to run it? You just can't see the bigger decarbonisation/cleaner transport picture can you?
 

Railwaysceptic

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Who said LU would have to run it? You just can't see the bigger decarbonisation/cleaner transport picture can you?
Who now will obtain permission to install new third and fourth rail to Aylesbury?
 
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Aictos

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I seem to recall a Chiltern manager suggesting Aylesbury be 3rd-railed and integrated with Met, thus into Baker St etc. I have no idea what that means in terms of capacity, but I can see it's worth looking at.
I also recall a photo on the wall at Marylebone heading toward Harewood Avenue (?) exit showing tunneling at Lord's and wondering whether there was (or scope for?) another tunnel to the west of existing?
Also scope for rearranging platforms, eg removing lines not at platforms, reducing width of what I guess was once a taxi/ carriage road from Rossmore Street ...? ie Victorian/ Edwardian design criteria.

Any value in disgorging passengers at a new station around Finchley Road (akin to Vauxhall, Stratford?)?

Sorry if any of this is 'old hat' to you- I'm a newbie still ...

No worries, as to the issue that is Amersham I believe it would be possible to have OHL from Neasden South Junction to Platforms 1/2 at Harrow on the Hill as well as Amersham Platforms 1/3 to Aylesbury using Amersham and Harrow on the Hill to change to/from OHL to 3rd rail.

Yes it might seem complicated but I feel that if we can extend OHL southwards from Farringdon to City Thameslink with all the issues it brought and managed to get it resolved then I'm quite sure that we can electrify the Chilterns.

By doing this we would only require dual voltage rolling stock eg Class 319,Class377/2, Class 377/5, Class 350/1 etc....

If anyone with more knowledge of electrification can offer their input into my idea for the Marylebone to Amersham via Harrow on the Hill route then please I await your replies....
 

mr_jrt

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TBH, I'd be more inclined to hand over the Met's fast lines to NR, and have OHLE all the way from Aylesbury to Neasden South. Met loses service from Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham, or a bit of new track is laid from Watford south junction to a rebuilt Rickmansworth station with a full-size bay to retain that link. Capacity at Marylebone is the biggest issue, but if Chiltern gets a platform or two at OOC then perhaps enough capacity could be freed up for things to work out.

Doing things that way then means NR can make a case for lengthening platforms and improving line speeds and thus try to draw passengers away from railheading to the WCML or the Chiltern mainline to free up capacity there.
 

HSTEd

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I think passengers would largely prefer to give the Met more capacity than turn the fast lines over to National Rail.
 

Bald Rick

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No worries, as to the issue that is Amersham I believe it would be possible to have OHL from Neasden South Junction to Platforms 1/2 at Harrow on the Hill as well as Amersham Platforms 1/3 to Aylesbury using Amersham and Harrow on the Hill to change to/from OHL to 3rd rail.

Yes it might seem complicated but I feel that if we can extend OHL southwards from Farringdon to City Thameslink with all the issues it brought and managed to get it resolved then I'm quite sure that we can electrify the Chilterns.

By doing this we would only require dual voltage rolling stock eg Class 319,Class377/2, Class 377/5, Class 350/1 etc....

If anyone with more knowledge of electrification can offer their input into my idea for the Marylebone to Amersham via Harrow on the Hill route then please I await your replies....


There are very few issues about OLE over 4th rail routes, just so long as there is no return current in the running rails.
 

Meerkat

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It's pretty well universally recognised that if a road journey looks as though it has got easier then more people will try it
You can scope the bypass so that the average journey time is roughly the same, it’s just more reliable (which is good for business) and the traffic is polluting residential areas
 

BrianW

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Wondering ... from a position of relative ignorance ...
How many (few?) diesel services still into London(from anywhere); thinking Air Quality/ particulates etc.
Lines in London other than into Marylebone not (yet) electrified?
How easy to 'ban' diesels already (or how soon)?
I can see potential political as well as environmental gain.
 

tbtc

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An alternative view is that railways are probably the most energy-efficient part of our transport infrastructure and need to be expanded to move the greatest proportion of whatever we really need to move around that is sensible

Your alternative view, sure.

But if you've got DMUs chugging along managing maybe a couple of miles to the gallon versus modern cars that can do thirty or forty miles to the gallon then any train service with an average load capable of fitting into a minibus is presumably a train service that is bad for the environment and should be scrapped?

Bad news for places like Kyle of Lochalsh and Thurso, mind. Probably a lot of evening services across the UK ought to be scrapped, if energy efficiency is so important to you.

I think that it has been established that notwithstanding some sensationalist coverage in the press (e.g. The Guardian) there are hardly any genuine 'new roads' planned beyond an additional Thames crossing

Agreed - typical re-hash of Government commitments etc.

The thing is that when they do this for rail the reaction on here is along the lines of "its unfair to bundle all of this spending together as a lot of it is things already promised and some of it relates to maintenance and things like replacing existing infrastructure with minor upgrades so it's unfair to roll it into one massive figure"... but when a similar announcement is made about roads we treat the whole amount as being entirely for brand new roads (rather than digging down and finding that some of these things were already in the pipeline, some of the spending will be minor things like sorting out accident hotspots at junctions or adding a filter lane - it's not all for completely new roads.

No need to apologise.
The 3rd-railing of places like Aylesbury (and other places on the periphery of our 3rd rail networks) is an easy-win for removing diesel-worked trains, obvious to anyone outside a hide-bound civil service department. Unfortunately we have a government department (maybe 2) with absolute control that cannot see the wider picture.
They are so obsessed with not upsetting precedents set by their current superiors (or undermining principles that they have established) that any wider benefits get lost

We need a name for the phenomena of "the more that people complain about how badly the various Public Sector people are in running the railways, the more popular nationalisation seems to be" - presumably from people who think that a nationalised railway will magically be in the hands of completely different people to the DfT/ Network Rail etc

It's pretty well universally recognised (and as plain as the nose on your face) that if a road journey looks as though it has got easier then more people will try it. I have driven car-based holidays that would I never have dreamed of doing if various road upgrades hadn't been done. I bet most people have done the same, and can recognise it too.
If you can't see (or won't admit) that easier driving encourages more of it then no-one can help you.

...and presumably, if a rail journey has got easier then more people will try it, yes?

But I guess that you see all rail traffic as A Good Thing, rather than an increase in pollution (given that not everyone on a train would otherwise have been driving a car - one of the excuses people have for building railways is the large number of people without access to a car - running more trains means more electricity/diesel etc (which is sometimes more efficient than everyone driving a car, but with modern fuel efficiency, it's nothing like as clear cut as it used to be.

Wondering ... from a position of relative ignorance ...
How many (few?) diesel services still into London(from anywhere); thinking Air Quality/ particulates etc.
Lines in London other than into Marylebone not (yet) electrified?
How easy to 'ban' diesels already (or how soon)?
I can see potential political as well as environmental gain.

As well as Marylebone, there's still the 171s coming into London Bridge, the 158/159s into Waterloo, the 180s at Kings Cross (I'm ignoring the 221s at Euston and the 222s/HSTs at St Pancras as there are concrete plans to remove them with bi-mode trains which will be running in electric mode at the London end).

(plus freight, of course, e.g. on the North London Line, but you'd have to wire up huge distances to cover freight routes, and FOCs seem very reluctant to swap between diesel and electric locomotives part way through journeys so I think we are stuck with 66s etc inside London)
 

Aictos

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There are very few issues about OLE over 4th rail routes, just so long as there is no return current in the running rails.

It also means not having to extend the 3rd rail which isn't feasible for what is needed to electrify this part of the Chilterns, thank you for though for your post I quoted as it confirms what I thought was right.

I also feel that it should be done to stages to make the most of the infrastructure because Stage 1 would mean 6 of the 8 trains a hour from Marylebone would be electric with only 2 trains remaining as diesel then once Stage 2 is completed then those two trains would be electric as well meaning no diesels would be operating over the Chiltern Mainline except for the Cross Country services and the West Midlands services until such a time of course that the WMR Class 172s need to be replaced.

Therefore I think Stage 1 which would be:

Neasden South Junction to Platforms 1/2 at Harrow on the Hill
Aylesbury to Platforms 1/3 at Amersham
Princes Risborough to Aylesbury
Marylebone to Banbury
Bicester South Junction to Oxford
Aynho Junction to Oxford

Aynho Junction to Oxford should be done as a extension of the Didcot Parkway to Oxford electrification though.

The below could be done with a total line block as the majority of services would not be affected, it would just mean that Oxford passengers would have to use GWR and Aylesbury passengers using the Amersham services which would be strengthened.
Bicester South Junction to Oxford
Princes Risborough to Aylesbury

The below would just mean the cancellation of the Amersham services with a rail replacement bus service in place between Aylesbury and Amersham with 2tph 1ZXX between Aylesbury and Marylebone via Princes Risborough.
Neasden South Junction to Platforms 1/2 at Harrow on the Hill
Aylesbury to Platforms 1/3 at Amersham

The below would be the hardest part to electrify as I'm not sure if a total line block with rail replacement buses would be acceptable even if it meant faster and quieter trains although I believe that would be the best option.
Marylebone to Banbury
 

Alfie1014

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I wonder if choosing not to electrify the route is in part to do with the current fleet. The Turbos have plenty of life left in them, whereas much older HSTs and DMUs in the north need/needed replacement first. With limited electrification resources and no urgent need to get rid of Chiltern DMUs, it made sense to focus wiring in other parts of the country.

Maybe in 10-20 years time we will see another total route modernisation, with ERTMS and wiring along with new trains?

When I was working at the DfT 10 or so years ago and we were seriously developing a rolling programme of electrification; Chiltern/Snow Hill lines was considered as an obvious follow on from GW, NW electrification and Valley lines. It freed up large quantities of modern(ish) DMUs 168-172s and would help facilitate a South to North route with infill from Oxford to Banbury and Reading to Basingstoke (at that time still part of GW plans). It was planned to follow the then approved schemes from about 2017-20 using the wiring resources already or soon to start work on GW and elsewhere. But we all know what happened then! Similar expansion in the north was to have continued after the NW route had been completed with a yearly incremental increase in the spread of the wires (much like how Scotland has managed to do).
 

leytongabriel

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I seem to recall a Chiltern manager suggesting Aylesbury be 3rd-railed and integrated with Met, thus into Baker St etc. I have no idea what that means in terms of capacity, but I can see it's worth looking at.
I also recall a photo on the wall at Marylebone heading toward Harewood Avenue (?) exit showing tunneling at Lord's and wondering whether there was (or scope for?) another tunnel to the west of existing?
Also scope for rearranging platforms, eg removing lines not at platforms, reducing width of what I guess was once a taxi/ carriage road from Rossmore Street ...? ie Victorian/ Edwardian design criteria.

Any value in disgorging passengers at a new station around Finchley Road (akin to Vauxhall, Stratford?)?

Sorry if any of this is 'old hat' to you- I'm a newbie still ...
Perhaps new Chiltern/Met. platforms at West Hampstead rather than Finchley Rd to open up interchange with the Overground and Thameslink as well as the Jubilee?
 

Bald Rick

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Perhaps new Chiltern/Met. platforms at West Hampstead rather than Finchley Rd to open up interchange with the Overground and Thameslink as well as the Jubilee?

Talked about a lot. All I will say is look at googlemaps satellite view, and work out where the platforms will go.
 

BrianW

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Talked about a lot. All I will say is look at googlemaps satellite view, and work out where the platforms will go.

Talk- yes. Maybe lack of will? New roads, and road 'improvements' demolish houses and businesses all the time. Borough Market Junction by comparison - a bridge too far? Is there not a case at all for 'public benefit'? Googlemaps suggests to me Homebase and car parking to go? Too much to slew? Is it a price worth paying? Maybe not. Maybe?
 
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Bald Rick

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Talk- yes. Maybe lack of will? New roads, and road 'improvements' demolish houses and businesses all the time. Borough Market Junction by comparison - a bridge too far? Is there not a case at all for 'public benefit'? Googlemaps suggests to me Homebase and car parking to go? Too much to slew? Is it a price worth paying? Maybe not. Maybe?

The second Borough Market viaduct resulted in berlittle demolition, essentially the top floor of a pub. And it enabled a significant amount of additional capacity into central London, plus a significantly improvement in central London connectivity. Whereas demolishing a couple of streets worth of houses and businesses at West Hampstead would simply enable a handful of Chiltern passengers a slightly shorter journey time. Incomparable I’m afraid.
 

BrianW

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Many, many, many years ago I got my crayons out for West Hampstead...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KsAJrWWXW3-_uOEJzjKmWzVddNs&usp=sharing
Short version is, platforms on the east side of the road, and I think demolition would be minimal...can't recall what the satellite view looked like when I drew it up originally though!

That looks good to me- good enough at least to warrant more a more detailed consideration.
To my mind, the Bakerloo etc platforms perhaps a little more to the east (ie Audi/ Homebase on your Googlemap) so the slew in the north-west might not impinge upon the newish blocks of flats there.
I agree, demolition should be minimal.
I'm not sure the will is there in those who will need to show leadership.

BTW- I see on the East-West rail thread just that kind of 'vision'- maybe if we're going to build ourselves out of the present 'situation' now is the time for such as this.
 

Meerkat

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Whereas demolishing a couple of streets worth of houses and businesses at West Hampstead would simply enable a handful of Chiltern passengers a slightly shorter journey time. Incomparable I’m afraid.
Isn’t the gain from significantly increased interchange opportunities and reducing the load on central tube lines?
I really think West Hampstead, Willesden, and Clapham interchanges should be priority projects.
 

Elecman

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Electrify Birmingham to as far south as the LU lines and use Bi mode battery EMUs for the service until a way can be found of electrifying into Marylebone itself overcoming the issues of the shared LU tracks and the tunnels intoMarylebone. Electrify Marylebone platforms for battery charging facility/ running train auxiliaries.
 

Whistler40145

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Would it be a positive sign that if the Chiltern Mainline was electrified that the line between Princes Risborough to Aylesbury and linked to the Oxford to Bedford line be a useful diversionary route for WCML traffic and a possible service to Marylebone or Paddington?
 

Bald Rick

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Many, many, many years ago I got my crayons out for West Hampstead...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KsAJrWWXW3-_uOEJzjKmWzVddNs&usp=sharing

Short version is, platforms on the east side of the road, and I think demolition would be minimal...can't recall what the satellite view looked like when I drew it up originally though!

Demolition would be substantial. Every property on Broadhurst Gardens parallel to the statio would have to go. All the development off West End Lane (worth £150m), plus you’d be into Homebase, and that’s just for the LU / Chiltern side. To do the rest would require large scale demolition of everything around there, various houses and apartments and businesses. I’d be surprised if just the land cost was less than a billion.
 

Bald Rick

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Isn’t the gain from significantly increased interchange opportunities and reducing the load on central tube lines?

For which flows where the interchange doesn’t exist at West Hampstead / Finchley Road already?
 

Meerkat

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Demolition would be substantial. Every property on Broadhurst Gardens parallel to the statio would have to go. All the development off West End Lane (worth £150m), plus you’d be into Homebase, and that’s just for the LU / Chiltern side. To do the rest would require large scale demolition of everything around there, various houses and apartments and businesses. I’d be surprised if just the land cost was less than a billion.
I reckoned you could move the platforms about and not demolish too much - it would be the disruption that was the issue.
The cost of buying to demolish can be mitigated by redevelopment over the top (which could even be worth more round that way)
 

Bald Rick

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I reckoned you could move the platforms about and not demolish too much - it would be the disruption that was the issue.
The cost of buying to demolish can be mitigated by redevelopment over the top (which could even be worth more round that way)

It’s not just the end game, it’s how you get to it that’s important. Site compounds, logistics routes, storage yards, environmental factors, etc.

For those of us that do build things like this, the amount of land you need is way in excess of what the end result is.
 

The Planner

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Would it be a positive sign that if the Chiltern Mainline was electrified that the line between Princes Risborough to Aylesbury and linked to the Oxford to Bedford line be a useful diversionary route for WCML traffic and a possible service to Marylebone or Paddington?
If Chiltern agreed to thin their service to do so. Not sure what you would run into Marylebone though that would fit. What normally happens is that journey planners push you to Chiltern at Birmingham as the journey time is quicker anyway when the WCML is shut.
 

BrianW

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For which flows where the interchange doesn’t exist at West Hampstead / Finchley Road already?
To my mind a significant factor would be to reduce the number of folk who 'pile out' at Marylebone round the corner and down to the inadequate Bakerloo line (and there's no other line there), or 'hoof it' along the road to Baker Street.
 
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