How Would You Upgrade Lewisham?

[DynamicSpirit]

As discussed in this thread, the Government is reported to have allocated £5.5 million to fund the early design and development stage for an upgraded Lewisham station. Added to this we have the likelihood of the Bakerloo line arriving at Lewisham within the next 20 years or so.

So what would you do with Lewisham? How would you upgrade it?

Try to keep suggestions vaguely sensible: Suggestions to flatten the whole area around Lewisham and rebuild everything from scratch are not in the scope of this thread . But you may include reasonable suggestions for trying to relieve the bottleneck of the junctions around Lewisham as well as how to improve the station itself.

 

[30907]

One of the issues is Platform 2 which, being on the outside of the curve, makes boarding difficult. Suppose you built a new Up line parallel to the existing Platform 1 on the west side and a Platform 0 on it, but on the inside of the curve. You then repurpose the existing Platform 1 as a Down platform (building it out) on the inside of the present Platform 2 track and fence off the old platform. This makes down trains tolerably accessible.

Is it possible?
Plus - the only building in the way seems to be on the existing Platform 1, the rest is open space or the bus park.
Minus - you couldn't connect to the Up Slow (Up Cannon St) at St John's. This is mostly an issue for the Mid Kent - but if the Bakerloo gets extended....
Cost - cheaper than my crayonista suggestion of extending the DLR (old thread)!

 

[BrianW]

I can't say I know Lewisham that well, apart from regular journeys for a while sometime back from Blackheath to Charing Cross with 'over the bridge to Platform whatever at London Bridge'; lots of old viaduct around St Johns, and lots of lines coming together. A lot may have changed since then, or not ... Not letting that ignorance get in the way ... Please humour me if I am way off- I'm still newish to the Forum. Sometimes an 'outside' view however uninformed can be 'I wouldn't have thought of that!'
1. My first thoughts would be around simplification- eg which services/ routings could be cut out/ rationalised/ regularised.
2. Could some be taken away/ rerouted? How important is it to get from Lewisham to/from Ladywell or Hither Green, both of which I think serve St Johns too, or do they pass by?
3. Is St Johns worthwhile or a nuisance overall- I just don't know ok.
4. How easy is it for folk to change trains at Lewisham?
5. Is it easy to separate folk entering/ leaving/ changing?
6. IF the Bakerloo is going to reach Lewisham, might it be extended further out; might it take over a line- in which case which? or better to go somewhere else?
Enough from me (for now?)

 

[ComUtoR]

So what would you do with Lewisham? How would you upgrade it?

I wouldn't.

Try to keep suggestions vaguely sensible: Suggestions to flatten the whole area around Lewisham and rebuild everything from scratch are not in the scope of this thread .

Lewisham doesn't need an 'upgrade' it needs a rebuild. There is so much wrong with the current layout that the only 'real' solution is to demolish it and start again. London Bridge is a prime example of a rebuild where there was some small sacrifices for the greater good. If a rebuild is possible at London Bridge, then why not Lewisham ? I'd be interested to know why you don't see a rebuild as 'sensible' and want to place limitations on an ideas thread.

But you may include reasonable suggestions for trying to relieve the bottleneck of the junctions around Lewisham as well as how to improve the station itself.

The quickest and easiest solution to the bottleneck is what has already been proposed. Route rationalization. Plain and simple. Remove the need to cross the junction. We are almost at that point anyway as Cannon Street runs via St Johns and Charing Cross goes over the flyover. Vic are a problem but only because there is a continual backlash from the passenger groups. To make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs.

Personally I believe that part of the project will be to force route rationalization. Previously when this has been suggested, there is an issue where the tunnels between platforms are too small for the volume of passengers that would need to change platform. This could be resolved with the introduction of an alternative route; most likely a bridge.

Lewisham :

Problem - Solutions

Clash through the junction - Grade Separation, Route rationalization
Crowding - Wider platforms, staff dispatch, station rebuild
Passenger interchange - Footbridges, Underpass, station rebuild
Service Overload - Remove Victorias, Reduce Hayes services, Haykerloo line introduction (long term)
Passenger growth - New rolling stock, additional station, station rebuild

I would include any addition of a new platform as a station rebuild.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Lewisham doesn't need an 'upgrade' it needs a rebuild. There is so much wrong with the current layout that the only 'real' solution is to demolish it and start again. London Bridge is a prime example of a rebuild where there was some small sacrifices for the greater good. If a rebuild is possible at London Bridge, then why not Lewisham ? I'd be interested to know why you don't see a rebuild as 'sensible' and want to place limitations on an ideas thread.

Oh, if you think that re-building is needed then that's fine as a suggestion. Possibly I worded my post wrong. I didn't mean I didn't want suggestions for how to rebuild it. I was more trying to discourage the kind of pure fantasy suggestions to knock down every nearby tower block just to straighten a platform, which I rather suspected would otherwise come in.

 

[ComUtoR]

Lewisham is poorly placed. It is stuck right in the middle of development and right in the middle of a major transport network (roads and rail). Lewisham as a whole is being rebuilt. The station got developed a few years ago and it pretty much locked down any kind of expansion to the existing station. There is some space on the concourse and at the front of the station but that will be an easy swap from passenger space, to passenger space.

I do believe that the station needs a complete rebuild. You could widen the platforms by knocking down the ticketing hall and moving the entire ticketing space to the front of the station (where the small food stall is). Personally I would extend the gate-line/ticketing all the way down to the main road but that would impact the bus. Between platforms 2/3 you could remove the ticket hall and have that as an open platform space. It would be great if that could be rationalised as single direction island platforms but that would cause a knock on effect down the line.

You could... (total fantasy) move some of the platforms and create a much larger station. The Courthill Loop drops down into the station so there is potential for grade separation or potential for moving/creating an additional platform where people who are alighting at Lewisham for the DLR or interchanging for other services can change, but have an extended connection (an egg broken)

There is a lot of scope for grade separation and even coming up from the Dartford Loop there is potential room for another line directly connecting to the Up Lewisham towards Vic. Again, that would come with a sacrifice with a removal of the link between the Up Dartford Loop and Cannon Street (Via St Johns) It would still be provided via Lewisham and into Cannon that way.

As to straightening platforms, I kinda think that's important. The curve is a serious safety issue. We need to move towards level boarding and removing the rather large gap at Lewisham. Drop the Hayes line a little and grade separate the Courthill Loop to have an upper and lower platform. If the Haykerloo is ever built then there may need to be an underground platform so pushing the Mid Kent towards a sub surface platform may be the best option if the Bakerloo is extended as an underground line.

For me, route rationalisation is the quickest option and a short term gain. Long term I can only see a complete rebuild of the station.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One of the issues is Platform 2 which, being on the outside of the curve, makes boarding difficult. Suppose you built a new Up line parallel to the existing Platform 1 on the west side and a Platform 0 on it, but on the inside of the curve. You then repurpose the existing Platform 1 as a Down platform (building it out) on the inside of the present Platform 2 track and fence off the old platform. This makes down trains tolerably accessible.

Is it possible?
Plus - the only building in the way seems to be on the existing Platform 1, the rest is open space or the bus park.
Minus - you couldn't connect to the Up Slow (Up Cannon St) at St John's. This is mostly an issue for the Mid Kent - but if the Bakerloo gets extended....
Cost - cheaper than my crayonista suggestion of extending the DLR (old thread)!

Not connecting to the St John's tracks would presumably be OK if you rationalised the routes, so only the Blackheath traffic went via St Johns.

But wouldn't curvature make such a new platform impossible? For obvious health and safety reasons, I'm fairly sure the new platform would be required to be relatively straight - and that gives you the problem of how to join the existing tracks: To the North of the station you'd have to join track towards Tanners Hill that heads almost due NW (and is on a steep incline), while at the other end you'd be joining track towards Hither Green that heads almost South, but slightly SouthWest. Your new track would need to turn through an angle of - I reckon - about 50 degrees within the short spaces at beyond the ends of the platform. I'd be very surprised if that was possible.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You could... (total fantasy) move some of the platforms and create a much larger station. The Courthill Loop drops down into the station so there is potential for grade separation or potential for moving/creating an additional platform where people who are alighting at Lewisham for the DLR or interchanging for other services can change, but have an extended connection (an egg broken)

There is a lot of scope for grade separation and even coming up from the Dartford Loop there is potential room for another line directly connecting to the Up Lewisham towards Vic. Again, that would come with a sacrifice with a removal of the link between the Up Dartford Loop and Cannon Street (Via St Johns) It would still be provided via Lewisham and into Cannon that way.

Trying to understand this, but not sure what you mean by Courthill Loop and Dartford Loop. Can you clarify?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

1. My first thoughts would be around simplification- eg which services/ routings could be cut out/ rationalised/ regularised.

The suggestion of simplifying routes, so that most/all trains from Blackheath head for St John's then Cannon Street, and most trains from Hither Green/Ladywell head for Charing Cross/Victoria regularly comes up. I think it would be a great idea, as it would make services far more robust. The only problem with it is political - whenever this kind of thing goes out to public consultation, loads of people and politicians start jumping up and down and screaming that they can't possibly lose trains going to several different London terminals.

2. Could some be taken away/ rerouted? How important is it to get from Lewisham to/from Ladywell or Hither Green, both of which I think serve St Johns too, or do they pass by?

I don't think that would be a good idea. Lewisham is not only an important destination in its own right (huge shopping centre, bus interchange, and lots of housing nearby) but a significant interchange for rail and DLR journeys - and will become more so when the Bakerloo line arrives. If routes are rationalised, you'll have even more people changing there too. If anything, I think a very important requirement is reduce, not increase, the numbers of metro trains that skip Lewisham. Ladywell by the way is the station for Lewisham University Hospital - so I'd say Ladywell trains really need to stop at Lewisham in order to allow more general travel from SE London to the hospital.

3. Is St Johns worthwhile or a nuisance overall- I just don't know ok.

It's pretty close to Lewisham, so you could probably get away with closing it if necessary. But I can't see how closing it would help Lewisham.

4. How easy is it for folk to change trains at Lewisham?

I'd say, not too bad if you're at the London end of trains, although the subway is a bit unpleasant and I'm told can get very overcrowded in rush hours (I only really use Lewisham off-peak). Pretty terrible if you're at the 'country' end of a train because then it's invariably a very long walk to get to the other platforms. A cursory look at Google Maps should show how far platforms 1/2 are from platforms 3/4 at the country end.

5. Is it easy to separate folk entering/ leaving/ changing?

Dunno.

6. IF the Bakerloo is going to reach Lewisham, might it be extended further out; might it take over a line- in which case which? or better to go somewhere else?
Enough from me (for now?)

There's been some talk of it doing so. The Hayes line is the most obvious choice, and might possibly not be a bad idea, but would need to overcome some public opposition. I'm not sure if it would also mean an extended closure of the entire Hayes line for converting to LUL electrification. (But on the other hand, if Lewisham was going to be rebuilt, you're going to have a lot of extended disruption to a LOT Of metro lines anyway).

 

[hkstudent]

The suggestion of simplifying routes, so that most/all trains from Blackheath head for St John's then Cannon Street, and most trains from Hither Green/Ladywell head for Charing Cross/Victoria regularly comes up. I think it would be a great idea, as it would make services far more robust. The only problem with it is political - whenever this kind of thing goes out to public consultation, loads of people and politicians start jumping up and down and screaming that they can't possibly lose trains going to several different London terminals.



I don't think that would be a good idea. Lewisham is not only an important destination in its own right (huge shopping centre, bus interchange, and lots of housing nearby) but a significant interchange for rail and DLR journeys - and will become more so when the Bakerloo line arrives. If routes are rationalised, you'll have even more people changing there too. If anything, I think a very important requirement is reduce, not increase, the numbers of metro trains that skip Lewisham. Ladywell by the way is the station for Lewisham University Hospital - so I'd say Ladywell trains really need to stop at Lewisham in order to allow more general travel from SE London to the hospital.



It's pretty close to Lewisham, so you could probably get away with closing it if necessary. But I can't see how closing it would help Lewisham.



I'd say, not too bad if you're at the London end of trains, although the subway is a bit unpleasant and I'm told can get very overcrowded in rush hours (I only really use Lewisham off-peak). Pretty terrible if you're at the 'country' end of a train because then it's invariably a very long walk to get to the other platforms. A cursory look at Google Maps should show how far platforms 1/2 are from platforms 3/4 at the country end.



Dunno.



There's been some talk of it doing so. The Hayes line is the most obvious choice, and might possibly not be a bad idea, but would need to overcome some public opposition. I'm not sure if it would also mean an extended closure of the entire Hayes line for converting to LUL electrification. (But on the other hand, if Lewisham was going to be rebuilt, you're going to have a lot of extended disruption to a LOT Of metro lines anyway).

The Hayes Line takeover is well supported by Lewisham Council and Bromley Council Labour Group (where the wards are on Hayes Line stations), but just be barred by Bromley Conservative Group (the governing party). If there is a strong will by the Mayor of London, it can be done right away. What is concerning is that TfL is not having any money to push new projects or phase 2 of any existing projects.

Lewisham is poorly placed. It is stuck right in the middle of development and right in the middle of a major transport network (roads and rail). Lewisham as a whole is being rebuilt. The station got developed a few years ago and it pretty much locked down any kind of expansion to the existing station. There is some space on the concourse and at the front of the station but that will be an easy swap from passenger space, to passenger space.

I do believe that the station needs a complete rebuild. You could widen the platforms by knocking down the ticketing hall and moving the entire ticketing space to the front of the station (where the small food stall is). Personally I would extend the gate-line/ticketing all the way down to the main road but that would impact the bus. Between platforms 2/3 you could remove the ticket hall and have that as an open platform space. It would be great if that could be rationalised as single direction island platforms but that would cause a knock on effect down the line.

You could... (total fantasy) move some of the platforms and create a much larger station. The Courthill Loop drops down into the station so there is potential for grade separation or potential for moving/creating an additional platform where people who are alighting at Lewisham for the DLR or interchanging for other services can change, but have an extended connection (an egg broken)

There is a lot of scope for grade separation and even coming up from the Dartford Loop there is potential room for another line directly connecting to the Up Lewisham towards Vic. Again, that would come with a sacrifice with a removal of the link between the Up Dartford Loop and Cannon Street (Via St Johns) It would still be provided via Lewisham and into Cannon that way.

As to straightening platforms, I kinda think that's important. The curve is a serious safety issue. We need to move towards level boarding and removing the rather large gap at Lewisham. Drop the Hayes line a little and grade separate the Courthill Loop to have an upper and lower platform. If the Haykerloo is ever built then there may need to be an underground platform so pushing the Mid Kent towards a sub surface platform may be the best option if the Bakerloo is extended as an underground line.

For me, route rationalisation is the quickest option and a short term gain. Long term I can only see a complete rebuild of the station.

Rationalisation does provide a lot of improvement in service reliability, but that seems not to be apparent to passengers. Meanwhile, train frequency cannot be increased due to terminals capacity problem.
The argument seems not strong enough to persuade passengers to give up the direct service they are currently enjoying, particular for those living at the country end of Greater London area who recognise themselves less like a Londoner

 

[30907]

Not connecting to the St John's tracks would presumably be OK if you rationalised the routes, so only the Blackheath traffic went via St Johns.

But wouldn't curvature make such a new platform impossible? For obvious health and safety reasons, I'm fairly sure the new platform would be required to be relatively straight - and that gives you the problem of how to join the existing tracks:

I'd forgotten that aspect, and I think you are right. My proposed new platform wouldn't be allowed, and a straight platform would require housing and a leisure centre being demolished. Bother (or northern equivalent )

In which case the only option is to leave well alone or to close the platform to passengers. See my post on the other thread for expensive ideas

 

[hkstudent]

I'd forgotten that aspect, and I think you are right. My proposed new platform wouldn't be allowed, and a straight platform would require housing and a leisure centre being demolished. Bother (or northern equivalent )

In which case the only option is to leave well alone or to close the platform to passengers. See my post on the other thread for expensive ideas

Indeed. There is not much space for Lewisham to do any major rebuilding works for straightening platforms as redevelopments have started.
The current requirement for new platform curve is not less than 1000m radii. An extension is permitted on curve not less than 500m radii.

I think sadly, a good opportunity is missed.

I guess the most possible redesign of platform 1 and 2 would be relocating them 100 south, which the curve is less bent. But that would make interchange between platform 1&2 and 3&4 be much difficult...

 

[ComUtoR]

Trying to understand this, but not sure what you mean by Courthill Loop and Dartford Loop. Can you clarify?

If your coming from Hither Green the downhill gradient into the platform is called the Courthill Loop. It is a significant drop into Lewisham and onto the Mid Kent. There is another change of gradient going up into Lewisham Platform 1 where it curves and drops towards the London end. Conversely, the route from Blackheath is relatively flat.

The Dartford Loop is the Sidcup Line.