Class 321s unable to stop at 4-Car Stop at Hatifeld

[jon0844]

A few times now, I've put it down to a driver forgetting the length of his/her train, but this morning I went to speak to the driver after me, and 50-60 other people, had to run down platform 1 at Hatfield to board the 0924 FCC service to King's Cross - a Class 321 (4-car) that stopped at the 8-car board.

Now, firstly to clarify; this is NOT related to the issue on platform 3 where all trains must now stop at the end of the platform.

The driver, and his colleague, pointed out that there's a horizontal bar on the pull down window that, in conjunction with the positioning of his seat, stops him from being able to view the displays showing the platform at the 4-car stop. As a result, he must go on to the 8-car stop.

The driver also said that not all drivers are doing this, but it's a health & safety issue.

That being the case, I don't have a problem - but there are a few issues that come to mind:

1) FCC isn't telling anyone this via posters, CIS or manual announcements - meaning everyone now has to run down the platform to board and inevitably board through the rear set of doors.
2) There's a chance people will miss the train, given the driver can't wait forever (unless told to do so on account of the issue?)
3) Not every service is always booked with one particular class of train, so there's no real way (bar identifying the train as it approaches) to know where it will stop if you wanted to plan ahead.
4) If you did plan ahead, not all drivers are stopping their 4-car 321 at the 8-car stop anyway.

Does this problem affect any other stations on the GN line? What can FCC do about it.. or more to the point, what IS FCC going to do about it? Can the monitors be moved higher/lower or the train door windows modified?

 

[Bastiaan]

It's FCC ... It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't planning to do any thing about it.

 

[NSEFAN]

Surely this horizontal bar along the window only affects people of a certain height? I find it hard to believe that all drivers could be affected by it (which would explain as to why certain drivers don't travel all the way down the platform).

Also, can the driver not simply sit up/duck down to see the screens? It seems pointless installing DOO monitors if you can only see them from an exact position. The driver might as well simply open the window like they do on Chiltern and see for themselves if it's okay to depart.

 

[jon0844]

I'm only saying what the driver did, and if they all stop further down then so be it - but there needs to be a way of informing passengers. You can't have a train flying through and stopping at the other end of the platform and people running down, including those who can't run, those with prams, wheelchairs etc.

He said it was a H&S thing, so it sounded official.

I know the passenger isn't always right, but I think it's fair to expect some consistency.

 

[Aictos]

I'm sure Ungreat will be along shortly but from the brief I have seen all 321s running as a 4 car service MUST stop at the 8 car marker as I believe it stated the reason being drivers can't clearly see the monitor/screens.

No other services are affected, it's just the 321s.

It won't be long anyway until all trains stop at the same position at the end of the platform regardless of length,

 

[142094]

The same situation occurs frequently at York, with platform 3 used by East Coast and Crosscountry. East Coast trains use the full length of the platform, but XC having Voyagers they travel all the way down to near the end (most probably in order to see the signal, although TPE don't usually do this on platform 5 going south?), so you'll often see a mad dash as people leg it to the train. Must have been going on for a few years now and no posters or signs to tell people where the train will stop.

 

[O L Leigh]

Cl321's are particularly bad in terms of the position of the driver's seat and the ability to work DOO services. It's too centrally located and not sufficiently close to the side to allow the driver a good view back down the side of the train irrespective of the driver's stature.

As new, these units were allocated the West Anglia division before it was discovered that they were not compatible with "look back" DOO working due to the position of the driver's seat and the arrangement of the droplight window. Consequently the "Bins" were moved onto the GE and the WA side got a share in the Cl317's. More recently, it was found necessary to staff any "Bins" on GE Metro services with a conductor to operate the doors because of the requirement for "look back" working on that route also.

I'm not familiar with Hatfield, but I suspect that if the 8 car stop has monitors where the 4 car stop requires the driver to look back, this will be the reason why FCC have briefed out the requirement to go up to the 8 car stop even when it's a 4 car train. This is an important instruction and the inconsistent application of it is worrying. As with all safety issues, the final responsibility rests with the driver. If they are not all going up to the 8 car board as instructed and something untoward happens as a consequence, it will be the driver that cops the blame and not the company because the instruction has been ignored.

As for the lack of instruction for waiting passengers, I'm afraid you've already answered your own question. Unless certain services are operated by certain classes of train without fail, it is impossible for FCC to give proper instruction.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

There are monitors for both 4 and 8-car stops. The driver (and his colleague in the front cab) did show the seat position quite clearly.

There's still inconsistency at platform 3, where there are no monitors and the mirrors have been removed for what was the 3/4 car stop - now ALL services stop at the far end. That means a 5-car walk from the steps to a 313 service. People now know, as it is clearly(ish) marked and they've got a new shelter and information screen at the far end.

However, on platform 1, people are very angry. When it happened last week, an RPI got it in the neck from people who had to run. That's why when it happened today, I asked the driver at King's Cross (and was polite, just asking if there was a problem at Hatfield rather than saying 'do you bloody know how long your train is). Thing is, people are going to be seriously upset - at least until it can be consistent.

The problem is, FCC can't put up a poster to say 'Class 321 trains to stop further down' as if everyone can identify one class over another.

Does seem odd that they can see the screens at the 8-car stop though, but not the 4-car.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well there must be some reason why a 4 car "Bin" can't stop at the 4 car stop, but without knowing more about the set-up at Hatfield I can't comment further. If there is no difference in the viewing angle between 4 and 8 car monitors I can only assume that there is some other problem affecting the driver's line of sight.

I do know from experience that DOO monitors are not particularly brilliant. The old black and white monitors don't show much detail while the newer colour monitors seem to have LCD screens and, as a consequence, require the driver to stop very accurately in order to get the best view (this was a factor in the incident involving the member of public trapped in the doors of a Cl365 at Huntingdon not so long back). If the monitors at the 4 car stop are not optimised for Cl321's due to the viewing angle or some other issue, this would be reason enough for the instruction due to the impaired view they would afford to the driver. As mentioned above "look back" working is not an option on Cl321's, and that includes having to look back at DOO monitors where they are angled relative to the train such as you might find on the Seven Sisters loop.

O L Leigh

 

[TDK]

Surely this horizontal bar along the window only affects people of a certain height? I find it hard to believe that all drivers could be affected by it (which would explain as to why certain drivers don't travel all the way down the platform).

Also, can the driver not simply sit up/duck down to see the screens? It seems pointless installing DOO monitors if you can only see them from an exact position. The driver might as well simply open the window like they do on Chiltern and see for themselves if it's okay to depart.

You can't have a special instruction for short people on the railway, don't be rediculous.An instruction is an instruction, if the drivers are briefed to stop at the 8 car mark then they should any drivers not doing this and an incident occurs they are in deep trouble, to enable a look back authorisation a risk assessment needs to be carried out and it also needs to be varified by the H & S union rep. As for informing passengers O.L. Leigh has the answer for that the sinsible thing for a passenger once they know tis is a possibility to occur is to be smart and wait on the platform where they have both options

 

[jon0844]

Some photos this morning. I arrived a little early so platform was mostly empty, but by the time I boarded the rear set of doors - there were plenty of people rushing down - and not very happy. It now means the train is at the platform a lot longer.

We did make up time by getting out to the fast line to Potters Bar, then back in to the slow after it (usually it's out on the fast only if it's very late - and then it's after Potters Bar or New Barnet).

 

[313103]

It is quite obvious to me why there is a problem at this location, the monitors and mirrors were originally set up for DOO operation of class 313 & 317s, where the driver sits to the left and is very adjacent to the drop down window.

Does anyone on here remember the farce of the WCML DOO scheme, where British Rail introduced monitors and mirrors forr DOO of class 317s and when all the money was spent the 317s went and 321s came in, as a result the Guards were put back on the trains because as O L Leigh has mentioned the Driver on a class 321 sits just off centre and therefore cannot do the DOO scheme that was originally introduced, and the DOO scheme was eventually scrapped. What would be required here is modification for the use of all DOO equipment that suits all units that stop at that location

 

[dan_atki]

If the monitors are set up in a similar way to those on the TL side, then do the 4 car stop monitors only have 2 pictures but the 8 car monitors have 4?

Looking at the third picture, if it was an issue with the metal at the bottom obstructing the view then maybe it isn't an issue with the monitors at the 8 car stop, or if it is, the bottom 2 monitors show coaches 5-8 so obstructing them isn't an issue on a 4 car train.

In the case of the latter, then that would render 8 car 321s unusable on H&S grounds.

 

[jon0844]

I'll take photos of the other (8-car) screens tomorrow. These are much lower down.

It does seem that the monitors are very high up. Also, they may have old screens that have a poor viewing angle. Modern LCD panels can be viewed almost perfectly right up almost to when you're looking side-on.

There are a number of possible solutions, but I suspect FCC will just make people run down every now and then and run the risk of missing their train, or not being able to get on because everyone now wants to get on one single set of doors!

Now if the driver can see the upper monitors fine on the 8-car stop and not worry about the others, what happens when it runs as an 8-car? Does the driver now have to get out of the train and look back?

 

[asylumxl]

If the passengers are made aware of it, then like London Blackfriars Southbound platform on the TL side, everyone will just have to compensate for the extra distance in their timing, and if they miss it they have nobody to blame but themselves IMO.

 

[dan_atki]

I'll take photos of the other (8-car) screens tomorrow. These are much lower down.

...

Now if the driver can see the upper monitors fine on the 8-car stop and not worry about the others, what happens when it runs as an 8-car? Does the driver now have to get out of the train and look back?

Ah now if the 8 car ones are lower down, then I suspect the metal at the bottom doesn't obscure the lower 2 pictures.

As I said above, if it does then I would expect 8 car sets are banned. Do they run in 8 car formation?

 

[jon0844]

Yes. In fact, I believe FCC run most of their 321s in 8-car formation. Not sure they split/join them that often, as I think they're used for services to Peterborough and return as 8-car (even off-peak when it's somewhat overkill).

As for passengers needing to make more time, the problem is that - unlike platform 3 where EVERY train stops at the far end - you can't know where to stand when Phil Sayer says it's a 4-car train. You can see where the 4-car stop is, and nobody is going to (well, I did today) stand on their own between the 4-car and 8-car signs for a train announced as 4-car. If a 317 turns up, you'd also look like an idiot as you run back towards the train!

So, FCC either interrupts and manually announces the arrival as stopping at the far end (but who at Hatfield can or would do that?) or give out cards to passengers on how to indentify the rolling stock. If you see a 321 coming from the distance, run down...!

What MIGHT happen is people will all stand down by the 4-car sign so they can walk either way, which means people will all board through the front or rear set of doors only.

Sod anyone on the platform with a buggy or wheelchair. In fact, I wonder what happens if a wheelchair user requests the ramp. I bet even Hatfield staff don't know this is happening, or why. They'll be thinking a driver simply stopped at the wrong place.

 

[dan_atki]

Yes. In fact, I believe FCC run most of their 321s in 8-car formation. Not sure they split/join them that often, as I think they're used for services to Peterborough and return as 8-car (even off-peak when it's somewhat overkill).

I'd hazard a guess then, if my theory is correct, that the fact as the monitors are lower down, the protruding metal isn't a problem at the 8 car monitors.

 

[jon0844]

How hard would it be to modify the doors on the 321s so the window is bigger/taller?

There isn't much room to look out of, I have to say.

Surely doors are made by only a few manufacturers to supply the likes of Bombardier etc, and could be built in a relatively short order. What would FCC need? 10 trains, 4 windows per train = 40 modified doors.

Maybe the ROSCO could fund the modification (snigger)?

 

[TDK]

How hard would it be to modify the doors on the 321s so the window is bigger/taller?

There isn't much room to look out of, I have to say.

Surely doors are made by only a few manufacturers to supply the likes of Bombardier etc, and could be built in a relatively short order. What would FCC need? 10 trains, 4 windows per train = 40 modified doors.

Maybe the ROSCO could fund the modification (snigger)?

That is obviously a tongue in cheek post, modify 40 doors for the sake of one stop definately not cost effective if you do a cost analysis

 

[jon0844]

Is it just this stop? I haven't seen the brief. If it's the entire GN network, then it's a bit more serious isn't it?

Some stations are okay in that all trains stop at the same place anyway, and are near the exit/entrance, but it can't just be Hatfield.

If it is then, yes, consider it a tongue-in-cheek post.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's not really just the doors though is it? If the 321's are anything like the 322's and 320's, then the driving position is quite some way away from the cab door anyway. Though to be honest, i've never set foot on a 321 let alone seen its cab.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is it just this stop? I haven't seen the brief. If it's the entire GN network, then it's a bit more serious isn't it?

Some stations are okay in that all trains stop at the same place anyway, and are near the exit/entrance, but it can't just be Hatfield.

If it is then, yes, consider it a tongue-in-cheek post.

If it was that simple it would have already been done for other routes. It would be cheaper just to get rid of them had them over to NXEA and get some 317/6's back instead.

 

[jon0844]

Or adjust the diagrams so 321s don't operate where the train stops at Hatfield. I guess we need to know just how many stations are affected.

I am sure they've got a sufficient fleet to ensure that Hatfield remains served only by 317, 365 and 313s. Problem solved, and if there's the ODD occasion where a 321 has to operate then at least the problem is only once in a blue moon.

 

[jon0844]

Ended up looking like an idiot today, standing down at the 8-car stop when the driver stopped at the 4-car one and I had to run back! He never moved from his seat, so he must be able to see the screens okay.

The 8-car stop has screens MUCH lower down. Why can't the 4 (and 6) car stops be lowered? Is it because people would walk into them? The 8-car stop has only recently been 'caged', although even before that it was at the very edge of the platform and not exactly in a position for people to walk into.

 

[jon0844]

Friday and today, the train stopped at the 4-car stop. Today, the driver seemed to be able to see the screens by simply leaning over a bit and looking upwards at the monitors.

Now I know the only safe place to stand is AT the 4-car stop. Then I can board on the front or rear set of doors without having to run!