Class 150 after London Midland

[Slaffter]

Does anyone know what is to become of the London Midland 150s when they are displaced by Class 172 turbostars? Surely the day when they are finally withdrawn cannot be far away, with the increasing numbers of turbostars, etc. If they are just being withdrawn, surely some thought should be given to preservation, especially as the LM fleet contains the two 150/0 prototypes. Presumably 150001 would be a good candidate, not only is she the unit that ushered in the Sprinter era, but I understand the other prototype, 150002, was considerably modified as the testbed for the 158s. Is there currently any group supporting Sprinter preservation?

Slaffter

 

[generalvegitable]

they will go to either FGW or Northern I can't remember which

 

[sprinterguy]

They are being sent mainly to Northern, I think a few are going to FGW as well to replace the 142s, either that or previously Northern 150s are being sent to FGW in exchange for 142s, either way Northern are getting the 142s currently being used by FGW.
And latest thoughts are that a few 150s are being kept by London Midland after the transfer.

There is a thread covering all the info:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30877

 

[Voyager 2093]

Its both. More will go to Northern I believe because FGW are getting the ones displaced from LOROL.

 

[HITMAN]

I should hope they scrap the Pacers before the 150's

 

[tbtc]

Nothing will get preserved in the next decade, it'll just get shifted to Northern.

I bet the plan to electrify the Manchester/ Blackpool/ Liverpool lines was just to find a line suitable to cascade the few remaining old EMUs from London (West Anglia etc)

(removes tongue from cheek)

 

[387star]

What's happening to the Arriva 150s FGW is long term leasing for the 158 lengthening scheme? do ATW want them back? will FGW get enough 150s to replace the 142s and those on hire. I know the silverlink liveried units will stay...

 

[swt_passenger]

What's happening to the Arriva 150s FGW is long term leasing for the 158 lengthening scheme? do ATW want them back? will FGW get enough 150s to replace the 142s and those on hire. I know the silverlink liveried units will stay...

IIRC, FGW get 15 x 150s, ie 30 cars. Six from LO, 9 from LM.

The Northern 142s, the ATW 150s, and the loan SWT 158 all return to their normal TOCS, and two sets of LHCS will no longer be hired. According to Modern Railways a while ago that totals about 32 cars/carriages, but more efficient diagramming will apparently cope with the slight reduction.

 

[tbtc]

IIRC, FGW get 15 x 150s, ie 30 cars. Six from LO, 9 from LM.

The Northern 142s, the ATW 150s, and the loan SWT 158 all return to their normal TOCS, and two sets of LHCS will no longer be hired. According to Modern Railways a while ago that totals about 32 cars/carriages, but more efficient diagramming will apparently cope with the slight reduction.

The more I think about this, the less I'm certain who the "winners" are.

LM and LO get almost "like for like" replacement, but not a lot of additional units.

FGW lose marginally more units than they gain.

Northern gain some 142s/150s but lose the 180s, lose some 156s and don't get their 158s back from ScotRail.

The only clear winners are ATW (who get their loaned 150s back from FGW), EMT (who get some 156s from Northern to displace 158s used on "local" routes to the Liverpool - Nottingham service) and ScotRail (who get to keep the Northern 158s, despite Bathgate being wired up - potentially for additonal trains to Perth).

Good old "Robbing Peter To Pay Paul" tactics, like back in the BR days :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

They are being sent mainly to Northern, I think a few are going to FGW as well to replace the 142s, either that or previously Northern 150s are being sent to FGW in exchange for 142s

No the London Overground 150s are replacing the FGW 142s, which are to be returned to Northern to replace the 180s, much to the annoyance of Northern who say they're struggling to find enough routes suitable to use 142s on.

Northern are only getting 16 150 vehicles i.e. 8 trains (confirmed) and they are losing 8 156 vehicles (4 trains) to EMT.

Therefore the loss for Northern is 23 vehicles and the gain is 30 smaller vehicles. So does the cascade benefit Northern? Only very marginally.

 

[swt_passenger]

LO don't get any real increase - they had 8 150s uptil a year or two back, but had transferred 2 to FGW earlier - their immediate problems are that the 172s haven't been delivered quickly enough - they reasoned that 6 would be ok as the route peak frequency wan't increasing until about now.

LM wasn't ever intended to be a large increase, the idea was that they would lease new stock to 'prime the pump' for the cascades to FGW and Northern. Now both these latter TOCs have scratched around for loans from elsewhere, while waiting for the cascade, but the effect of those succesful loans is that there is now no visible increase.
As an example, if those 3 180s hadn't been available, Northern would now be seeing a significant number of extras, and back in April the DfT would have been shouting louder and spinning faster about their generosity...

The advantage for FGW is that they can rejig all their diagrams for cross Bristol and Devon local services, and because the 150s will be a more standardised fleet they can interwork with other DMUs in ways LHCS from two freight companies can't...

 

[Donny Dave]

No the London Overground 150s are replacing the FGW 142s, which are to be returned to Northern to replace the 180s, much to the annoyance of Northern who say they're struggling to find enough routes suitable to use 142s on.

The only way round this (as far as I can see) is that Northern replace the odd 15x diagram out of Sheffield (to Scunthorpe, Lincoln and Doncaster/Adwick) and Manchester (commuter routes (not Buxton though) to the SE and Hope Valley) and replace them with the pacers coming back North.

It's either that or the Cumbria Coast route goes over to Pacers.

 

[northwichcat]

The advantage for FGW is that they can rejig all their diagrams for cross Bristol and Devon local services, and because the 150s will be a more standardised fleet they can interwork with other DMUs in ways LHCS from two freight companies can't...

And then Northern have the opposite effect. Diagrams that are Sprinters currently will be switched to Pacers. Pacers aren't able to run to Buxton, Clitheroe or Stoke and for the running of a lot of Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds commuter services 142s need to be avoided as they are simply too small and Northern don't have enough spare units to strengthen every overcrowded services. For example, a 142 that was diagrammed to work an evening Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool service had to leave passengers behind in Manchester, it couldn't even pick up passengers at Trafford Park (only a few miles from Manchester) which is where in the evening a lot of people board and not many alight. The fact that it was a single 142 until recently shows how far down it was on GMPTE's list of priorities for strengthening.

 

[Ibex]

With the eventual rollout of 172's with London Midland, will these units also be taking over on the Marston Vale line?

 

[The Planner]

It's not the intention, they are bound for the Snow Hill lines initially, doesnt mean one won't find its way out there though.

 

[87015]

It's not the intention, they are bound for the Snow Hill lines initially, doesnt mean one won't find its way out there though.

Are 172s 23m? Won't fit on the branch if so after the wonderfully short sighted rebuilding of various stations with platforms only long enough for 2x20m, unless SDO could be used, but then BY crews won't sign that, so they'll want more money etc etc...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, they're 23m. They're also slightly wider at 2.75m which I think means only the 165s are wider?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Are 172s 23m? Won't fit on the branch if so after the wonderfully short sighted rebuilding of various stations with platforms only long enough for 2x20m, unless SDO could be used, but then BY crews won't sign that, so they'll want more money etc etc...

Snow Hill lines will have a similar problem unless some platforms are lengthened or will we just get less vehicles (with less seats) per service.

 

[northwichcat]

One place where 172 criticism will certainly occur is when a service has a maximum loading of around 130. A 2 car 150 would let 130 people all get seats, a 2 car 172 will not.

 

[andysugg1971]

If Fgw are to take 150/1s I hope they will get a refirb before they get here. We already have 2 150/1 in the area. As for making the 158s longer, from what I saw today someone in the traction planning dept needs to look at the events calender for the Bristol & Cardiff area & think about what trains to double the size of. More to the point why can't they run the ECS working of 57's & stock from Taunton to Cardiff as a service train. I am dam sure it would be full.

 

[northwichcat]

If Fgw are to take 150/1s I hope they will get a refirb before they get here. We already have 2 150/1 in the area. As for making the 158s longer, from what I saw today someone in the traction planning dept needs to look at the events calender for the Bristol & Cardiff area & think about what trains to double the size of. More to the point why can't they run the ECS working of 57's & stock from Taunton to Cardiff as a service train. I am dam sure it would be full.

I'm not sure where the story's come from but it does appear FGW are getting 150/1s from LM and Northern are getting 150/2s. Only 8x2 car 150s have been confirmed for Northern, I don't know how many FGW have confirmed and whether LM will be able to keep some 150s and cascade 153s instead, which is apparently what they want to do.

The 150s that Northern have with the original interior but with new seat covers and the metal poles painted aren't too bad and are certainly a lot better than the refurbished 142s. I don't know if it's true but apparently FGW don't want to use 3+2 seating while in other areas (like Manchester) PTEs would simply not allow 3+2 seating to be replaced by 2+2 seating due to crowding issues.

Relating to your ECS question there are loads of operations like that and possible reasons for it not being in service are crew working hours (conductors aren't needed for ECS workings) and adding stops in to a ECS working would make it take longer and then it would hold up a following passenger or freight service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are being sent mainly to Northern, I think a few are going to FGW as well to replace the 142s, either that or previously Northern 150s are being sent to FGW in exchange for 142s, either way Northern are getting the 142s currently being used by FGW.
And latest thoughts are that a few 150s are being kept by London Midland after the transfer.

There is a thread covering all the info:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30877

thisisplymouth.co.uk reports 30 carriages from the West Midlands will go to FGW - that's slightly less than half of the LM carriages but almost double what Northern have been promised so far.

 

[DjU]

I'm not sure where the story's come from but it does appear FGW are getting 150/1s from LM and Northern are getting 150/2s. Only 8x2 car 150s have been confirmed for Northern, I don't know how many FGW have confirmed and whether LM will be able to keep some 150s and cascade 153s instead, which is apparently what they want to do.

thisisplymouth.co.uk reports 30 carriages from the West Midlands will go to FGW - that's slightly less than half of the LM carriages but almost double what Northern have been promised so far.

FGW are getting the 30 carriages (15 units) from both LOROL and LM
6 x 150/1s from LOROL
9 x 150/1s from LM

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know if it's true but apparently FGW don't want to use 3+2 seating while in other areas (like Manchester) PTEs would simply not allow 3+2 seating to be replaced by 2+2 seating due to crowding issues.

Why should it be a decision for the PTE? If DfT concur with a TOC/Rosco agreeing seat removal to increase standing capacity it'll happen surely? I'm thinking of SWT's entire fleet of 455s here, and 28 of their 450s as well...

 

[anthony263]

I have heard this morning now that the class 172's entry into service has been delayed again now, someone was telling me it could be up to summer 2011 before they are fully in service.

 

[northwichcat]

I have heard this morning now that the class 172's entry into service has been delayed again now, someone was telling me it could be up to summer 2011 before they are fully in service.

It's been Summer 2011 for a while now. If you look at EMT's statement from a few months ago they state Summer 2011 for the 156 cascade which will be as soon as Northern get 150s from LM:
http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...orpassengersusingLiverpooltoNorwichroute_.htm
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why should it be a decision for the PTE? If DfT concur with a TOC/Rosco agreeing seat removal to increase standing capacity it'll happen surely? I'm thinking of SWT's entire fleet of 455s here, and 28 of their 450s as well...

PTE's have to address crowded trains and an overcrowded peak time train is officially where the number of passengers on the train exceeds a number equal to 1.35 times the number of seats on the train even if 2+2 makes more standing room opposed to 3+2 seating.

Also consideration should be given to the amount of time passengers have to stand for. In the case of Northern Rail any of their diesel trains can be used on a journey of up to 3 hours so removing 20 seats and having 12 passengers standing for 1.5 hours on some services would not be a good move.

When the Merseytravel 142s were refurbished with extra seats the overcrowded train figure was lower (1.25 times the number of seats) meaning that they can now actually be leaving passengers behind and not be officially overcrowded!

 

[Failed Unit]

Also consideration should be given to the amount of time passengers have to stand for. In the case of Northern Rail any of their diesel trains can be used on a journey of up to 3 hours so removing 20 seats and having 12 passengers standing for 1.5 hours on some services would not be a good move.
!

How often does that really happen? Yes we hear about people standing all the way between Liverpool and Manchester on EMT and also between Manchester and Sheffeild also on EMT. But would someone stand between Liverpool and Sheffeild? Unlikely as they would take the seat at Manchester.

I suspect in most cases someone will get a seat after 45 minutes. (which yes is longer than 20 minutes).

Judging by the most overcrowded routes I have used recently I observed the following:

Birmingham - Scotland (although standing until Oxenholme most people standing from Wolverhampton would have got a seat at Preston.
Manchester - Scotland (most people would have got a seat a Preston, not sure how full the rear portion was, I suspect people going to Lancaster use the front protion to get home quicker rather than sit in the Windermere portion).
Manchester - Leeds (Standing until Huddersfield)

I have seen Edinburgh - Glasgow standing all the way when short formed and the same issues on London -Cambridge expresses. But standing 1.5hours on a train, very unlikely. Even XC you can normally move into a seat at a major station.

 

[northwichcat]

How often does that really happen? Yes we hear about people standing all the way between Liverpool and Manchester on EMT and also between Manchester and Sheffeild also on EMT. But would someone stand between Liverpool and Sheffeild? Unlikely as they would take the seat at Manchester.

Before Buxton-Blackpool was spilt it happened every day in the summer on that service. A single 150 quite often arrived at Stockport with about 50 standing and some people who were standing before Stockport were still standing when the train arrived in Blackpool. - Spilting the service doesn't guarantee people aren't standing on two separate services for the same amount of time.

In your specific example I've heard of people travelling between Nottingham and Liverpool not getting a seat until Manchester Oxford Rd on the train that arrives in Manchester at around 08:30.

Manchester - Leeds (Standing until Huddersfield)

I've done York-Dewsbury standing and then at Dewsbury I managed to get a flip-down seat.

standing 1.5hours on a train, very unlikely

Some Sunday Northern Southport-Bolton-Manchester-Altrincham-Chester services easily have standing for people standing for 1.5 hours of the total 3 hour journey (no one would likely do the full journey with Northern) especially if there is a football match or international cricket on.

 

[Failed Unit]

Before Buxton-Blackpool was spilt it happened every day in the summer on that service. A single 150 quite often arrived at Stockport with about 50 standing and some people who were standing before Stockport were still standing when the train arrived in Blackpool. - Spilting the service doesn't guarantee people aren't standing on two separate services for the same amount of time.

No it doesn't, but on the Buxton - Blackpool example didn't people leave the train at Manchester Piccadilly? Surely if people really wanted a seat they would have got one vacated by someone leaving at Piccadilly?

In your specific example I've heard of people travelling between Nottingham and Liverpool not getting a seat until Manchester Oxford Rd on the train that arrives in Manchester at around 08:30.

By choice again, a lot of people leave the train at Sheffield.

I've done York-Dewsbury standing and then at Dewsbury I managed to get a flip-down seat.

Didn't anyone get off at Leeds?

Of course I have heard of people standing for long distances on trains, but in many cases they had a choice. They may not of wanted to look down the coach as people leave. Even in disruption people have needed to stand between York and London because they wanted to travel on the first train that came along rather than wait 10 minutes for the following empty one. Human nature a train on a platform is worth 2 on a departure board. Likewise I have somewhere comfortable to stand so why move.

Before a user of the Skegness - Nottingham summer services jumps in, yes I know on a hot summer day it is possible to stand the whole journey with no-one getting off to make room at Grantham, but that is a peak flow rather than a normal commute. Most commutor trains tend to have shorter flows.

 

[northwichcat]

No it doesn't, but on the Buxton - Blackpool example didn't people leave the train at Manchester Piccadilly? Surely if people really wanted a seat they would have got one vacated by someone leaving at Piccadilly?

No the number of passengers boarding at Stockport alone could have 3/4 filled the train's seats on most days, this was more than the number alighting at Piccadilly. On a lot of services many people got left behind at Piccadilly because the train couldn't take them so the only chose they had was wait for a later service and hope it's less busy or stand for the entire journey.

Also I disagree with your comment of choice of standing. If someone with a seat alights the front carriage at say Bolton then someone who's been standing in the rear carriage wouldn't get the seat and it could be taken by someone who boarded at Salford as they were standing closest to the vacated seat.

By choice again, a lot of people leave the train at Sheffield.

When I've seen the mentioned service arrive at Stockport there are usually no empty seats. I don't know how many people alight at Sheffield.

because they wanted to travel on the first train that came along rather than wait 10 minutes for the following empty one.

And did the next train have exactly the same stopping pattern and were the passengers made aware that the next train would be less busy and is 10 minutes away? People are always claiming North TPE is every 15 minutes but if you're going to Middlesbrough then the Scarborough train isn't of as much use.

Didn't anyone get off at Leeds?

Of course people got off but how does around 30-40 people getting off mean 100 standees get seats? And yes there were around 100 standees, if I had stood 1cm closer to the door, I would have been squashed when the doors closed.

 

[asylumxl]

Before a user of the Skegness - Nottingham summer services jumps in, yes I know on a hot summer day it is possible to stand the whole journey with no-one getting off to make room at Grantham

More fool them for traveling to Skegness in the first place ...