Delay Repay

[nmacca15]

Hi, it’s my first post so apologies if I mess it up!

I had a day trip planned on 10/3 starting in Newcastle.

All Advance tickets with 2T railcard

10:06 Newcastle - York 11:02 TPE
11:23 York - Leeds 11:50 Northern
(Plan was to have lunch in Leeds, then take the train from Leeds to Carlisle to take in the settle-Carlisle route)
13:18 Leeds - Carlisle 16:01
16:48 Carlisle - Glasgow C 17:59

I check to see if the 10:06 was running on time only to see it was cancelled due to staff shortages. I was told at the station to take the 9:47 which just as it was approaching was cancelled due to failed train. I asked if I could get on a lner service but this was guards discretion and I was told in no uncertain terms, no. I then was told take the 10:47 tpe which was then cancelled due to points failure at Durham.

At this point I decided to book a train to Carlisle as I was a bit fed up and had no chance of making the Leeds-Carlisle train and actually wanted to arrive in Glasgow at a reasonable time.

I got half way to Carlisle to find the 16:48 was cancelled and I was advised by twitter staff to take the next train 17:16 which was fine. I’ve made a delay repay claim for that with Avanti.

my question is can I claim back the money for the unused tickets and the extra ticket I had to purchase. I bought the TPE ticket thru the LNER app and the rest with RailEurope who won’t refund the unused tickets as they were advance purchase.

Sorry that’s a bit long winded.....so was the trip to Glasgow

 

[hkstudent]

Hi, it’s my first post so apologies if I mess it up!

I had a day trip planned on 10/3 starting in Newcastle.

All Advance tickets with 2T railcard

10:06 Newcastle - York 11:02 TPE
11:23 York - Leeds 11:50 Northern
(Plan was to have lunch in Leeds, then take the train from Leeds to Carlisle to take in the settle-Carlisle route)
13:18 Leeds - Carlisle 16:01
16:48 Carlisle - Glasgow C 17:59

I check to see if the 10:06 was running on time only to see it was cancelled due to staff shortages. I was told at the station to take the 9:47 which just as it was approaching was cancelled due to failed train. I asked if I could get on a lner service but this was guards discretion and I was told in no uncertain terms, no. I then was told take the 10:47 tpe which was then cancelled due to points failure at Durham.

At this point I decided to book a train to Carlisle as I was a bit fed up and had no chance of making the Leeds-Carlisle train and actually wanted to arrive in Glasgow at a reasonable time.

I got half way to Carlisle to find the 16:48 was cancelled and I was advised by twitter staff to take the next train 17:16 which was fine. I’ve made a delay repay claim for that with Avanti.

my question is can I claim back the money for the unused tickets and the extra ticket I had to purchase. I bought the TPE ticket thru the LNER app and the rest with RailEurope who won’t refund the unused tickets as they were advance purchase.

Sorry that’s a bit long winded.....so was the trip to Glasgow

As the trains you planned to take (and booked) were cancelled, you are entitled to request a refund from your ticket retailers respectively for the unused ticket. Send them a email requesting a refund, mentioning the first train segment you booked was cancelled. All three segments can claim for refund.

Booked with LNER: Newcastle - York
Booked with RailEurope: York - Leeds, Leeds - Carlisle

As they all met with minimum connection time requirement, the itinery is valid. However, it would be a bit tricky with RailEurope, but RailEurope need to refund the ticket in principle.

(there are couple of posts mentioning split ticketing and refund from multiple retailers, e.g.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ets-purchased-from-multiple-retailers.174881/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-on-a-split-ticket.160070/)

I would suggest you to book with UK train operators (any operators can do), to get a better customer service in case of a refund of unused ticket due to cancellation / major delay, and try to book all tickets from one retailer as possible.

BTW, you can also add in the Durham - Carlisle ticket with Carlisle - Glasgow into the delay repay claim to Avanti West Coast as they can be considered as combined journey.

 

[nmacca15]

As the trains you planned to take (and booked) were cancelled, you are entitled to request a refund from your ticket retailers respectively for the unused ticket. Send them a email requesting a refund, mentioning the first train segment you booked was cancelled. All three segments can claim for refund.

Booked with LNER: Newcastle - York
Booked with RailEurope: York - Leeds, Leeds - Carlisle

As they all met with minimum connection time requirement, the itinery is valid. However, it would be a bit tricky with RailEurope, but RailEurope need to refund the ticket in principle.

(there are couple of posts mentioning split ticketing and refund from multiple retailers, e.g.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ets-purchased-from-multiple-retailers.174881/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-on-a-split-ticket.160070/)

I would suggest you to book with UK train operators (any operators can do), to get a better customer service in case of a refund of unused ticket due to cancellation / major delay, and try to book all tickets from one retailer as possible.

Thanks for the reply.

The only leg that was cancelled was the initial Newcastle to York TPE. This meant I missed the York to Leeds leg. Due to the disruption at Durham and the fact TPE had cancelled 3 off the bounce I decided to head straight to Carlisle.
I emailed rail Europe and got this back

“I’m afraid that as these are heavily discounted Advance tickets, Northern and Avanti has sold them as non-refundable, this includes cases where the train was missed.

The National Rail conditions of travel would have catered for your situation yesterday. Even on advance tickets, you are allowed to take a later train if the connecting service is cancelled or delayed (providing you travel with the same operator you originally planned to).”

 

[Haywain]

BTW, you can also add in the Durham - Carlisle ticket with Carlisle - Glasgow into the delay repay claim to Avanti West Coast as they can be considered as combined journey.

It doesn't look like the OP actually got as far as Durham, so it would be a Newcastle to Carlisle ticket. However, a valid claim for that will depend on the time of departure from Newcastle as there look to have been options for travelling to Carlisle and on to Glasgow somewhat earlier than the 16:48 departure.

 

[hkstudent]

It doesn't look like the OP actually got as far as Durham, so it would be a Newcastle to Carlisle ticket. However, a valid claim for that will depend on the time of departure from Newcastle as there look to have been options for travelling to Carlisle and on to Glasgow somewhat earlier than the 16:48 departure.

Indeed, if the "new" journey of direct Newcastle - Carlisle arrives before 1640, OP may joint up that "new" ticket with Carlisle - Glasgow one

Thanks for the reply.

The only leg that was cancelled was the initial Newcastle to York TPE. This meant I missed the York to Leeds leg. Due to the disruption at Durham and the fact TPE had cancelled 3 off the bounce I decided to head straight to Carlisle.
I emailed rail Europe and got this back

“I’m afraid that as these are heavily discounted Advance tickets, Northern and Avanti has sold them as non-refundable, this includes cases where the train was missed.

The National Rail conditions of travel would have catered for your situation yesterday. Even on advance tickets, you are allowed to take a later train if the connecting service is cancelled or delayed (providing you travel with the same operator you originally planned to).”

My goodness. Another retailer trying to escape responsibility by telling not the full truth.
Split ticket rule applies here, all tickets are considered as one journey.

Actually, if a train is cancelled or delayed, you can cancel the trip and refund the whole ticket without any admin fee.
I think other members may advice you steps to follow.

 

[nmacca15]

It doesn't look like the OP actually got as far as Durham, so it would be a Newcastle to Carlisle ticket. However, a valid claim for that will depend on the time of departure from Newcastle as there look to have been options for travelling to Carlisle and on to Glasgow somewhat earlier than the 16:48 departure.

my thinking was I was still at Newcastle at 11am and all TOCs were now at a standstill so booking a separate ticket to Carlisle seemed the easiest way to things and pick up my itinerary from Carlisle. I realise I could have completed the route as I’d originally booked (Ncl-yrk-lds-car-glc) but I presumed (more than likely wrongly) I could get the money back for the cancelled and subsequent missed connections due to the first leg being cancelled, and then reclaim the extra cost of booking a Ncl-car ticket

 

[thejuggler]

Raileurope appear to be another third party ticket sales company that generates money by not following the conditions of travel.

A ticket is a contract for a service, no service you are due a refund.

A saving is nice, until things go wrong.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, if the "new" journey of direct Newcastle - Carlisle arrives before 1640, OP may joint up that "new" ticket with Carlisle - Glasgow one

My point was that the OP changed plans after the cancellation of the 10:47 from Newcastle (which left at 11:14). This would suggest that the train used from Newcastle to Carlisle might have been, for example, the 11:51 arriving in Carlisle at 13:26 and, therefore, in good time for an earlier departure than the 16:48.

 

[nmacca15]

Raileurope appear to be another third party ticket sales company that generates money by not following the conditions of travel.

A ticket is a contract for a service, no service you are due a refund.

A saving is nice, until things go wrong.

I don’t know what to claim back from who.
The original TPE booked through LNER. Do I claim delay repay with TPE or a refund with LNER as they sold?

The missed trains am I due a refund from RE the seller?

The Last leg Carlisle-Glasgow I’ve put in a delay repay with Avanti.

The trip was only split at York to save money. I’d built in time to have lunch in Leeds and time for a pint in Carlisle

 

[nmacca15]

My point was that the OP changed plans after the cancellation of the 10:47 from Newcastle (which left at 11:14). This would suggest that the train used from Newcastle to Carlisle might have been, for example, the 11:51 arriving in Carlisle at 13:26 and, therefore, in good time for an earlier departure than the 16:48.

I arrived at Carlisle at 15:06 (allowed time just in case things went wrong again) for the 16:48. As this was cancelled I took the next service as the Avanti twitter account advised at 17:16

 

[Haywain]

I arrived at Carlisle at 15:06 (allowed time just in case things went wrong again) for the 16:48. As this was cancelled I took the next service as the Avanti twitter account advised at 17:16

If you arrived in Carlisle at 15:06 I would have expected the advice to be to travel on the delayed 14:00 departure. There was major disruption and I would expect that restrictions had been lifted.

This isn't a criticism of you, by the way.

 

[robbeech]

My point was that the OP changed plans after the cancellation of the 10:47 from Newcastle (which left at 11:14). This would suggest that the train used from Newcastle to Carlisle might have been, for example, the 11:51 arriving in Carlisle at 13:26 and, therefore, in good time for an earlier departure than the 16:48.

I've always thought it's a bit unfair (and likely good justification for rejection) when multiple tickets are used for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted, or at least reasonable route. If you are claiming the journey was Newcastle to Glasgow then it is clear then to divert via Leeds is not permitted on a thru ticket. As such i think it's awkward and incorrect to try and claim that you were delayed into Glasgow from Newcastle because a train to York was cancelled.
On the other hand i DO agree that you should be refunded any tickets that constituted your JOURNEY(S) that you didn't use tickets for if you didn't use them due to disruption.

That word JOURNEY is (as if often the case) the crucial one here. You'd planned a journey from Newcastle to Leeds, you'd planned to have lunch in Leeds. After lunch you planned a journey to Glasgow via Carlisle.

 

[nmacca15]

I've always thought it's a bit unfair (and likely good justification for rejection) when multiple tickets are used for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted, or at least reasonable route. If you are claiming the journey was Newcastle to Glasgow then it is clear then to divert via Leeds is not permitted on a thru ticket. As such i think it's awkward and incorrect to try and claim that you were delayed into Glasgow from Newcastle because a train to York was cancelled.
On the other hand i DO agree that you should be refunded any tickets that constituted your JOURNEY(S) that you didn't use tickets for if you didn't use them due to disruption.

That word JOURNEY is (as if often the case) the crucial one here. You'd planned a journey from Newcastle to Leeds, you'd planned to have lunch in Leeds. After lunch you planned a journey to Glasgow via Carlisle.

I could have easily gone to Glasgow direct but that wasn’t the point of the journey. I realise this has complicated matters. I just don’t think I should be out of pocket for missing a good chunk of the journey I wanted to do and for wanting to arrive at my destination at a reasonable time.

It cost me an extra £14.50 to get to Carlisle from Newcastle. If I get 50% of my fare from Carlisle to Glasgow back for the 30+ min delay and my money back for the initial cancelled train im not out of pocket

 

[Haywain]

That word JOURNEY is (as if often the case) the crucial one here. You'd planned a journey from Newcastle to Leeds, you'd planned to have lunch in Leeds. After lunch you planned a journey to Glasgow via Carlisle.

Even if there were 2 journeys, the second one could not be made due to the cancellations on the first one, so refunds (from the original retailer, OP) still apply.

 

[robbeech]

Even if there were 2 journeys, the second one could not be made due to the cancellations on the first one, so refunds (from the original retailer, OP) still apply.

Agree entirely.

According to running data (which may be incorrect somehow) the 1047 DID run, but late. If this is the case then the following itinerary should have put you on track to catch the original service at Leeds, all be it with no extended lunch break :
**** - booked
(****) - actual

Newcastle 1047 (1114) - 1147 (1212) York <TPE>
York 1223 (1231) - 1250 (1301) Leeds <Northern>
Leeds 1318 (1318) - Carlisle 1601 (1601) <Northern>
Carlisle 1716 (1718) - Glasgow Central 1839 (1840) <TPE>

I'm not sure so won't speculate on the flexible ticket you purchased to Carlisle, was it from newcastle, or somewhere else?

 

[robbeech]

I could have easily gone to Glasgow direct but that wasn’t the point of the journey. I realise this has complicated matters. I just don’t think I should be out of pocket for missing a good chunk of the journey I wanted to do and for wanting to arrive at my destination at a reasonable time.

It cost me an extra £14.50 to get to Carlisle from Newcastle. If I get 50% of my fare from Carlisle to Glasgow back for the 30+ min delay and my money back for the initial cancelled train i'm not out of pocket

I didn't see this a moment ago, perhaps as you're a new member posts need to be approved?

It sounds to me like, you didn't go to York, or Leeds, you abandoned the first 3 tickets and their associated journey(s) and just used the new ticket and the Carlisle to Glasgow ticket.
As such i would suggest (as others have said) you are entitled to a refund on the Newcastle - York, York - Leeds and Leeds - Carlisle ticket from the retailer(s) used. If RailEurope are refusing then you'll ned to take matters further.

In terms of delay repay however, i'm not sure. You changed your journey plan before you commenced the journey and held all the tickets before you started the journey, you left the minimum connection time at Carlisle but its not clear what ticket you held for Carlisle to Glasgow. If it was an advance for the 1648 and you waited until afterwards then you are due this if you were delayed 15 minutes or more. Don't forget this includes the Newcastle to Carlisle leg, if you were permitted to board an earlier service you might struggle to justify the claim.

 

[nmacca15]

Agree entirely.

According to running data (which may be incorrect somehow) the 1047 DID run, but late. If this is the case then the following itinerary should have put you on track to catch the original service at Leeds, all be it with no extended lunch break :
**** - booked
(****) - actual

Newcastle 1047 (1114) - 1147 (1212) York <TPE>
York 1223 (1231) - 1250 (1301) Leeds <Northern>
Leeds 1318 (1318) - Carlisle 1601 (1601) <Northern>
Carlisle 1716 (1718) - Glasgow Central 1839 (1840) <TPE>

I'm not sure so won't speculate on the flexible ticket you purchased to Carlisle, was it from newcastle, or somewhere else?

I was stood on the platform in Newcastle in the cold waiting to board it. The train crew were stood at the far end and never told us anything. It was announced on the tannoy it was cancelled due to points failure at Durham/failed freight train at Northallerton.

At this point been at Newcastle central for over an hour, seem 3 TPE cancelled off the bounce and I’d done 4 trips over the bridge. It’s a LNER station so all the staff could do was apologise and was take the next TPE service. I’d had enough so just booked a train to Carlisle and went for a well earned beer and some food

 

[nmacca15]

I didn't see this a moment ago, perhaps as you're a new member posts need to be approved?

It sounds to me like, you didn't go to York, or Leeds, you abandoned the first 3 tickets and their associated journey(s) and just used the new ticket and the Carlisle to Glasgow ticket.
As such i would suggest (as others have said) you are entitled to a refund on the Newcastle - York, York - Leeds and Leeds - Carlisle ticket from the retailer(s) used. If RailEurope are refusing then you'll ned to take matters further.

In terms of delay repay however, i'm not sure. You changed your journey plan before you commenced the journey and held all the tickets before you started the journey, you left the minimum connection time at Carlisle but its not clear what ticket you held for Carlisle to Glasgow. If it was an advance for the 1648 and you waited until afterwards then you are due this if you were delayed 15 minutes or more. Don't forget this includes the Newcastle to Carlisle leg, if you were permitted to board an earlier service you might struggle to justify the claim.

yes that’s correct. Train to York cancelled. York to Leeds and Leeds to Carlisle abandoned. Half way to Carlisle I found the 1648 (1st class advance) was cancelled. Avanti twitter advised I get the 17:16

 

[sheff1]

I emailed rail Europe and got this back

“I’m afraid that as these are heavily discounted Advance tickets, Northern and Avanti has sold them as non-refundable, this includes cases where the train was missed.

The National Rail conditions of travel would have catered for your situation yesterday. Even on advance tickets, you are allowed to take a later train if the connecting service is cancelled or delayed (providing you travel with the same operator you originally planned to).”

Bizarre claim from Rail Europe that Northern & Avanti sold the tickets when, in fact, the seller was Rail Europe thmselves. Regardless, the NRCoT do, indeed, cater for your situation - the first train you had intended to use was cancelled and you decided not to travel south as a result, therefore condition 30.1 applies:

30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.
This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as Advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.

As others have said, you should take this further. You might also consider whether Rail Europe is an outfit you would wish to deal with for any future jouirneys.

 

[trebor79]

What time would you have arrived in Glasgow had you such to the original route? You can work it out using RTT.
It sounds like it would have been a 2hr+ delay, in which case it's a 100% compensation.
If it were me, I'd just submit a delay repay claim to TPE on that basis. Likely to be the last hassle way of getting your money back. It didn't matter that you bought the tickets from different retailers.

 

[robbeech]

What time would you have arrived in Glasgow had you such to the original route? You can work it out using RTT.
It sounds like it would have been a 2hr+ delay, in which case it's a 100% compensation.
If it were me, I'd just submit a delay repay claim to TPE on that basis. Likely to be the last hassle way of getting your money back. It didn't matter that you bought the tickets from different retailers.

Which is borderline fraudulent. The tickets (3 of 4) are unused and as such a refund should be obtained from the retailer. I appreciate it might be EASIER to claim delay repay but its not the right thing to do. It's also worth pointing out that TPE would likely throw the claim out (with the exception of their bit from Newcastle to York) and given the routeing issue i mentioned earlier, i can see why they might have problems with it.

The other issue is that if you consider the original 4 tickets as 1 journey and TPE accepted this as a valid route (they won't), then you'd only get 50% anyway as it would have been possible to meet your original Leeds to Carlisle train, and then catch the train that you did catch from Carlisle to Glasgow delaying you by 30-59 minutes. In this case, you'd be rejected by TPE as they didn't cause a delay to your JOURNEY, your claim would be with Avanti.

 

[trebor79]

Which is borderline fraudulent. The tickets (3 of 4) are unused and as such a refund should be obtained from the retailer. I appreciate it might be EASIER to claim delay repay but its not the right thing to do. It's also worth pointing out that TPE would likely throw the claim out (with the exception of their bit from Newcastle to York) and given the routeing issue i mentioned earlier, i can see why they might have problems with it.

The other issue is that if you consider the original 4 tickets as 1 journey and TPE accepted this as a valid route (they won't), then you'd only get 50% anyway as it would have been possible to meet your original Leeds to Carlisle train, and then catch the train that you did catch from Carlisle to Glasgow delaying you by 30-59 minutes. In this case, you'd be rejected by TPE as they didn't cause a delay to your JOURNEY, your claim would be with Avanti.

Sorry, I'd somehow missed your earlier post. I agree delay repay as I suggested would not be appropriate.

 

[hkstudent]

Sorry, I'd somehow missed your earlier post. I agree delay repay as I suggested would not be appropriate.

But of course, the new ticket (Newcastle direct to Carlisle) and the original (Carlisle - Glasgow) 4th journey still constitute a real journey, and thus eligible for delay repay for that section

 

[bb21]

I think given the complexity of your circumstances, you are best contacting TPE customer service, explain what happened and attach all tickets. I would expect a decent answer through Delay Repay.

Too many cowboy third-party retailers in the market in my opinion, to the point that the really good ones risk their reputations dragged down with them too.

 

[nmacca15]

Thanks for all the replies.

Rail Europe got back to me saying ‘It's not considered a connecting service if the tickets were booked separately’

Any advice what my next move is?

 

[gray1404]

Raise a formal complaint with them and ask them for a deadlock letter so you can take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[Llanigraham]

Raise a formal complaint with them and ask them for a deadlock letter so you can take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

Are Rail Europe as an independent retailer covered by the Rail Ombudsman?

 

[nmacca15]

Raise a formal complaint with them and ask them for a deadlock letter so you can take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

thanks. I’ve quoted the whole paragraph 30.1 to them and said I’ll take it to the ombudsman. Safe to say I won’t be using them again!

 

[Haywain]

thanks. I’ve quoted the whole paragraph 30.1 to them and said I’ll take it to the ombudsman. Safe to say I won’t be using them again!

Are third party retailers covered by the ombudsman scheme?

 

[hkstudent]

Are third party retailers covered by the ombudsman scheme?

I doubt it is:
https://www.railombudsman.org/about-us/participating-service-providers/

I think it maybe good to get to Transport Focus for the case.