Advance Ticket Newcastle - Leeds 10 June

[Hornby APT]

Hi all,

I have booked an Advance ticket from Newcastle to Leeds for this Thursday, travelling on the 1130 East Coast departure from Newcastle changing at York onto the 1239 TPE service to Leeds.
All very good and a resonable fare of £14.50, but when I received the tickets today it is endorsered in the Route section AP TPE & CONNECT, is this correct as I am travelling East Coast from Newcastle to York? Will the East Coast guard (that is if they can be bothered to check it) question my ticket?Also I usually just catch the next York-Leeds train which in this case happens to be TPE am I tied to just TPE services for that leg?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hornby APT

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Your ticket is valid on the East Coast service for which you hold a seat reservation.

If the East Coast service arrives late into York, you ticket is valid on the next available service to Leeds, regardless of operator.

AP TPE & CONNECT = Advance Purchase TransPennine Express + Connections

(the connection being the East Coast train)

 

[b0b]

It's an advance ticket - you must use the seats and trains as described on the tickets. What reservations came with the ticket?

 

[John @ home]

is this correct

Do you have reservations for both the 1130 Newcastle - York 1230 and the 1239 York - Leeds 1303? If so, yes, this is correct and you must catch these trains (unless you miss the second one because the first is delayed).

 

[Hornby APT]

Yes I have seat reservations for both services mentioned. The reason I question it is I travel this route 2/3 times a month and have never had an Advance ticket endorsed TPE, only XC and EC. I would have thought it would have been endorsed EC on this occassion as they are the first and main TOC for the journey. Can anyone explain why it is TPE?

 

[yorkie]

To be honest, it's a can of worms.

I'd say you are best to stick exactly to the trains stated, unless there are delays/cancellations, in which case speak to a member of staff regarding alternative services. Obviously if a delay does occur you can use an alternative service.

I am unsure the following claims made above are definite 'facts':

- That, on an 'and connections' ticket, the 'connecting' train that is advised is essential if a reservation is held - This is a debatable issue, as different people say different things about that. It is unusual for the 'connecting' train to be for the majority of the journey, but it can happen in some cases, such as this.

- That, in the event of delays, you can get any operator and are not tied to the operator that you are booked with - I am unsure of this advice, and it is possible that some XC guards may object to the use of a TPE ticket between York & Leeds, they may argue that the next TPE service won't be long after (usually around 5 mins LDS-YRK and 14 mins YRK-LDS). If you really can do this, then GC would have to accept EC & Connections tickets if you were delayed on a, say, Harrogate to London via York ticket, if you missed your EC service, and the next one was a GC, even if a EC was 15 mins behind. I'd like to believe the railway is this flexible and I think it should be, but to advise that it will be accepted on any operator, is risky.

 

[John @ home]

Can anyone explain why it is TPE?

I don't know but I'll make a guess.

There are five sets of Advance fares from Newcastle to Leeds:
1. AP TPE ONLY.
2. AP TPE & CONNECT.
3. EC & CONNECTNS.
4. XC ONLY.
5. XC & CONNECTIONS.

The question is which is appropriate when both an EC and a TPE train are used, and there is a requirement for a seat from each company's Advance ticket quota to be available before an Advance fare can be offered.

In these circumstances, I would not be surprised if the software is set to give priority to the set of fares owned by the company which sets the flexible fares for that particular flow. For Newcastle - Leeds, that's TPE.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If the East Coast service arrives late into York, you ticket is valid on the next available service to Leeds, regardless of operator.

This is not the case. An Advance ticket is only valid on the geographic route or specific train operators shown on the ticket. In the event of late running you must still travel with the train operator shown on your ticket. If there is severe disruption other TOCs may agree to accept your ticket, but this is normally a general agreement made between company control centres, and you will normally be advised of this.

 

[cuccir]

I think this difference arises because different TOCs release different priced advances for the same route. I booked two AP tickets for Durham > Sheffield a few days ago. There was, on my outer journey, only one of the very cheap tickets left (when I tried to buy the two together I only got the higher price offered), so I purchased them in separate transactions.

I bought one ticket out for £5.30 Route "Via East Coast & other TOC connecting services" and one ticket out for £7.25 Route "AP TPE & CONNECT " For my return, both tickets are at the lower price and valid " Via East Coast & other TOC connecting services." Both are on the same train, and indeed the outer journey is only via TPE between Doncaster and Sheffield.

Presumably on your travel, which is fairly soon, the cheaper East Coast APs have all been purchased, so there are only more expensive TPE priced tickets left.

As for validity, my reading is that your ticket would only be valid on TPE services even if you're delayed, though as noted above, this might be removed if, say, all TPE trains between York and Leeds were cancelled or severely delayed but other operators were not affected.

 

[tony_mac]

This is not the case. An Advance ticket is only valid on the geographic route or specific train operators shown on the ticket. In the event of late running you must still travel with the train operator shown on your ticket.

That isn't what the ticket conditions say.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

How is a passenger supposed to know what is considered 'severe' disruption?

 

[yorkie]

In these circumstances, I would not be surprised if the software is set to give priority to the set of fares owned by the company which sets the flexible fares for that particular flow. For Newcastle - Leeds, that's TPE.

That would make sense.

Interestingly, if there was a delay on the outward leg, is there anything to stop you using XC as an alternative 'connecting' service between York and Newcastle? I am sure there is not.

On the return leg it's a bit more tricky, as if your connection at York is missed, then you have reached the TPE part of the journey, which is the TOC specific part (ie, not the 'connection'), and then can XC be used if there was a delay and the TPE train was missed? If so, then I don't see any reason why someone with a Redditch to Edinburgh XC & connections cannot, if the Cross City South train is delayed, then use Virgin via Lancaster (for example).

 

[OwlMan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwvr45
This is not the case. An Advance ticket is only valid on the geographic route or specific train operators shown on the ticket. In the event of late running you must still travel with the train operator shown on your ticket.

That isn't what the ticket conditions say.

It is!! (see highlighted section below). It does not say next train but next available train - there is a difference

When and where the ticket can be used
Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.
If the route is prefixed with a +, the ticket includes the cost of travelling across London on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) services as appropriate to the journey.
.Conditions of use
You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
Railcard holders travelling on a discounted ticket must carry their Railcard when they travel. If a Railcard holder fails to produce a valid Railcard with their ticket, a new ticket must be purchased as if no Railcard and/or no ticket were held.
First Class Advance tickets do not always grant access to First Class Lounges at stations. Please check with the train company you are travelling with to confirm policy at specific stations.
.Break of journey
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

.Changing the time or date of travel
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.

The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus a £10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.
.Refunds
Your ticket is non-refundable.
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee

Peter

 

[tony_mac]

yes, it says that just after it says

Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).

and that obviously doesn't apply, so why should the other part?


I think the statement

you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

is clear enough.

It does not say next train but next available train - there is a difference

I don't believe there is a difference, not in normal english anyway.

 

[Greenback]

There is two ways of reading this, depending on how you interpret the use of the word 'available'. Unless the writer of the onditions has inserted the word just to be verbose, it should be there for a reason. It could well be there to illustrate that the next trian is not necessarily available, which would depend on what it says on the ticket. A +connections ticket would indicte that it may well be available on the enxt service regardless of the TOC, but where it says TPE + Connections you are obliged tot ake a TPE train on that section of your journey.

All this is very unclear, and as usual, some sort of clarification from ATOC would be helpful. My feeling , though, is that the intention is to limit use to the named TOC's in most cirucmstances.

 

[tony_mac]

I think that's a good analysis. It's probably contradicted somewhere else anyway!

It's a bit of a crazy ticket, though. I wouldn't be surprised if an EC guard complains that it says 'TPE + connections'.

 

[Dewedin]

I've had AP TPE & Connections for journeys when the only TPE bit was Dewsbury to Leeds, think nothing of it.