Overnight break of journey

[caughtonatrain]

Hi all,

I need some (more) advice. I'd be grateful for any that you can afford...

A relative of mine is going to be travelling Upper Tyndrum - Dawlish on Wednesday . The ticket is a £152.50 Anytime Single.

The departure time is 13.19. The journey can't reasonably be completed in a day - the furthest it's possible to get is Bristol (arriving 00.17).

Past midnight is far too late for my relative to be messing around with looking for hotels etc in Bristol. They would much prefer to stay in Sheffield as it arrives at a reasonable time (about 9pm).

Question: can they break journey in Sheffield and resume next day? If so, can they get the 0954 ex-Sheffield and continue her journey on the same ticket?

I can see nothing in the Conditions of Carriage that would prevent this, but we need to be sure. I hope it is valid given the price of the ticket, the length of the journey, and the lack of reasonable alternatives....

Many thanks

 

[rail-britain]

I don't see any issue with that
However southbound it might cause some questions (like "where is Upper Tyndrum?")
Equally, since it is an anytime ticket the ticket holder has three days in which to complete the outward journey, and can break this journey as many times as they like

 

[dan_atki]

Not an issue judging by what you have written.

Strictly speaking, the condition is (from NRE):

Break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey continues into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains.

Although, I'm not quite sure what it means by the last bit. It implies changing trains is 'breaking a journey' which it isn't as per the conditions of carriage:

you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

Judging from that, by clause (ii), your friend isn't even breaking her journey in the first place!

@rail-britain: SOS' must be used on the date shown in the ticket. The outward portion of an SOR is valid for 5 days from the start date, and this is printed on the ticket.

 

[rail-britain]

@rail-britain: SOS' must be used on the date shown in the ticket. The outward portion of an SOR is valid for 5 days from the start date, and this is printed on the ticket

The ticket holder cannot complete the journey within 1 day

An Anytime single can be used for up to 3 days from issue / valid date
The reason for this is that some journeys cannot be completed in 2 days (ie one overnight)

 

[dan_atki]

The ticket holder cannot complete the journey within 1 day

That wasn't at dispute. In some circumstances a ticket holder is granted an extra day to complete the journey provided they resume before midday and do not break their journey again.

The wording on the NRE website seems to suggest going to overnight accommodation is classed as breaking the journey (against the CoC), and it then goes on to say a further break of journey is not allowed. This suggests that as an overnight stay is deemed (incorrectly) to be a break a journey that another is prohibited.

An Anytime single can be used for up to 3 days from issue / valid date
The reason for this is that some journeys cannot be completed in 2 days (ie one overnight)

Please could you provide an example of such a journey .

 

[gordonthemoron]

howabout Penzance to Wick using the FGW sleeper? In theory it is possible to get there in just over 24 hours, however this relies on a 5 minute connection in Haymarket which is rather dodgy

 

[caughtonatrain]

Thanks all,

I think you've provided us with some comfort that the ticket will be OK.

I agree, though that there does seem to be a lack of correspondence between what is stated on the NRE website and in the NCoC. It was this lack of clarity that led us to question the validity in the first place.

cheers

 

[rail-britain]

Please could you provide an example of such a journey

Thurso - Swansea
Sat 16:29 Thurso - Alness (day 1) break of journey, as permitted
Sun 11:31 Alness - Inverness 12:16 (day 2) - you have to take this train as you MUST commence before 12:00
Sun 13:25 Inverness - Edinburgh 16:42 (day 2)
19:57 Edinburgh - Lancaster 22:02 (day 2)
22:18 Lancaster - Crewe 23:20 (day 2)
04:54 Crewe - Swanea (day 3)

There are loads of other examples, basically if you leave any Highland station on Sunday after 12:00 and you need to change at Inverness or Aberdeen

Another such example is leaving Elgin on Saturday and breaking the journey at Dyce (Sunday 11:59)
This gets you to Edinburgh at 16:27

 

[dan_atki]

Thurso - Swansea
Sat 16:29 Thurso - Alness (day 1) break of journey, as permitted
Sun 11:31 Alness - Inverness 12:16 (day 2) - you have to take this train as you MUST commence before 12:00
Sun 13:25 Inverness - Edinburgh 16:42 (day 2)
19:57 Edinburgh - Lancaster 22:02 (day 2)
22:18 Lancaster - Crewe 23:20 (day 2)
04:54 Crewe - Swanea (day 3)

I think this is not allowed, simply because it IS possible to complete the journey starting at Saturday 1629, finishing Sunday 1830 and it is, therefore, your choice to make yourself effectively stranded short of the destination on the Sunday night. The terms of the ticket also suggest this is not valid.

How would you go about Pilning to Reddish South on a £63.00 SOS?

 

[rail-britain]

These journey meet the requirement for breaking a journey (which may include an overnight break of journey as permitted)
You have started on day 1 and have made every effort to complete the journey on day 2, which is also not possible

 

[yorkie]

It's hypothetical, and would require a fair bit of investigation to come to a conclusive answer. Someone may feel inclined to do so, but I won't as in reality if you indicated to a booking clerk or guard that you wanted to do this, I believe they would be in their rights to offer a split ticket in such circumstances. For example splitting at Crewe:

Thurso - Crewe SVR £127.40 (Valid any train)
Crewe-Swansea SVR £60.20 (Valid any train) or £49.20 (via Llandovery)

Either option is cheaper than the through £203.50 SVR.

 

[dan_atki]

The suggested day 2 itinerary (courtesy of East Coast) is as follows:

1131 Alness - Inverness 1216
1325 Inverness - Haymarket 1635
1656 Haymarket - Birmingham New Street 2055
2112 Birmingham New Street - Bristol Parkway 2305
2317 Bristol Parkway - Swansea 0129.

If, therefore, you choose to go around the longer route and thereby not making 'every effort to complete the journey on day 2' then again I will say you are responsible for making yourself stranded on the second night.

 

[yorkie]

The departure time is 13.19. The journey can't reasonably be completed in a day - the furthest it's possible to get is Bristol (arriving 00.17).

Past midnight is far too late for my relative to be messing around with looking for hotels etc in Bristol. They would much prefer to stay in Sheffield as it arrives at a reasonable time (about 9pm).

Question: can they break journey in Sheffield and resume next day? If so, can they get the 0954 ex-Sheffield and continue her journey on the same ticket?

Yes you can.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply (except where regarded
as an unbroken continuation
of the previous day's travel
where the first connection of
the day may be taken).
No further break of journey
is allowed except for the
purpose of changing trains.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

In this case it is not possible, however I deliberately highlted the "wishes to stop overnight" part to indicate that, on the outward portion of an Off Peak (WITHOUT the 'Day'!) ticket, you can choose to stay overnight. The fact you can choose eliminates all doubt that you can stop at Sheffield and not at Bristol. If it didn't say "wishes to" and only applied where you couldn't complete the journey, I would still say that there is nothing compelling you to go as far as you can, but some barrier staff (e.g. the disgraceful individuals I encountered at Slough in December 2007) may start arguing. I experienced this and it was not pleasant. The rules have been re-worded since then and eliminate all doubt.

The suggested day 2 itinerary (courtesy of East Coast) is as follows:

1131 Alness - Inverness 1216
1325 Inverness - Haymarket 1635
1656 Haymarket - Birmingham New Street 2055
2112 Birmingham New Street - Bristol Parkway 2305
2317 Bristol Parkway - Swansea 0129.

If, therefore, you choose to go around the longer route and thereby not making 'every effort to complete the journey on day 2' then again I will say you are responsible for making yourself stranded on the second night.

That's my view as well, although I can't see a statement that you need to make 'every effort to complete' the journey although such a statement would seem reasonable, so I could see it being a debatable issue if it's not documented. It wouldn't be a debate I'd pay ££s extra to get into when the easy and cheaper solution is to split the ticket!

 

[rail-britain]

I've had several passengers complete such a journey
They do get questioned and/or advised their ticket has expired, but on presentation of the reservations made and the journey cannot be completed within two days, no further action has been taken

I have a regular passenger that travels between Alness and Exeter
They have only been "interogated" once when they are still travelling on Monday morning
It is not possible for them to complete the journey on the Sunday (as per the rule commence before 12:00 on day two)

 

[dan_atki]

It is not possible for them to complete the journey on the Sunday (as per the rule commence before 12:00 on day two)

But it is, I showed it above. Unless you mean Exeter, which it is possible to reach by 0327 on the Monday morning.

 

[rail-britain]

It is possible, but it is not practical
Equally, the journey can be done direct from Edinburgh with one change
If you do this through the NR booking system it always sends customers via Kings Cross and some customers don't want this
The next option is a change at Birmingham and Bristol, again some people don't want that either

If the bookings are made by the above method then a third day is required
FGW confirmed this was acceptable, and the customer has used this several times
As above, I have used the same guidelines for other customers on such long journeys and they have never had any problems

 

[dan_atki]

If the bookings are made by the above method then a third day is required
FGW confirmed this was acceptable, and the customer has used this several times
As above, I have used the same guidelines for other customers on such long journeys and they have never had any problems

Common sense may prevail, but technically speaking there is nothing to say a second overnight stay is legitimate, and nothing saying that an SOS may be used 2 days after expiry.

Making a blanket statement like

Equally, since it is an anytime ticket the ticket holder has three days in which to complete the outward journey,

is unwise when this only applies in a very small minority of cases, and further

and can break this journey as many times as they like

is incorrect, when the terms state that there must be no further break of journey once it is resumed.