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More should be done to enable XC to carry more passengers to encourage modal shift

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Thunderer

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I find a lot of the "Terminate XC services at Leeds, York, Newcastle, Bristol and Reading amusing and short sighted. The operation is called "Cross-Country" not "Half Way Across the Country"

Through long distance services are important. Cutting destinations will result in more changes, putting passengers off long distance travel by train.

It was bad enough the DfT cut the WCML route away from XC to Scotland, without loosing destinations such as Poole, Brighton, Portsmouth, Swansea etc.

Voyagers are not fit for purpose for any XC route today and are an unwanted bi-product of the dreadfully thought up and implemented "Operation Princess".

The XC route has suffered for long enough. The DfT needs to realise not everyone travels to London and XC needs a new operator and big investment in new rolling stock with more capacity and bring back the WCML and Brighton, Poole, Portsmouth, Swansea etc to the XC routes.

Climate change is a massive factor now, yet more and more people are travelling long distances by car or bus as its much cheaper and franchises such as XC don't offer good quality services anymore to many places that used to be on the XC map.
 
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Thunderer

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At last, some sense prevails - see 11th March issue of RAIL magazine page 20. The DFT have finally realised that XC urgently needs more capacity with plans to turn 2 car 170's into 3 car 170's and they are currently looking at a plan to increase capacity on its NE/SW route and Manchester-Bournemouth. The article hints at the possible use of stored HST MK3's modified as per the ones on GWR and Scotrail , but that has yet to be confirmed 100%. It would make perfect sense to use more HST's on the Scotland to Devon and Cornwall route, thus freeing up more Voyagers to double up on Manchester services and the North East to Reading and Southampton. Watch this space, lets see if sense prevails.....
 

swt_passenger

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At last, some sense prevails - see 11th March issue of RAIL magazine page 20. The DFT have finally realised that XC urgently needs more capacity with plans to turn 2 car 170's into 3 car 170's and...
I guess you must have missed the existing thread that started a couple of weeks ago when DfT announced this? RAIL are just catching up.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...at-improvements-would-you-like-to-see.200953/
(Wasn’t easy to find because someone seems to start another XC discussion every few days at the moment...)
 

6Gman

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Climate change is a massive factor now, yet more and more people are travelling long distances by car or bus as its much cheaper and franchises such as XC don't offer good quality services anymore to many places that used to be on the XC map.

Wouldn't the bus (or coach) be less environmentally damaging than some train options ?
 

LMS 4F

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I thought that in BR days it was known that a lot of XC users were to use the term VFR, or visiting friends and relatives, and these people weren't rail savvy and wanted to get on at there home station and off where they were going. They didn't want to change and certainly didn't want to go via London. That was what XC gave them to a large degree at the outset.
Incidentally I have a friend who lives on the south coast and has family in Scotland and this would still be her wish today, and I am sure any other peoples as well.
 

Mogz

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Yes!

CrossCountry should be the country’s most comfortable trains serving far apart destinations without the need to change trains.

I would advocate IET or loco-hauled trains, at least 9 coaches per set, with a good mix of airline and table seats, with a few DB style compartments for families. There should also be a proper buffet serving hot food and a restaurant/cafe serving simple hot meals.

I think realistically cascaded 222s is really the best we can hope for though.
 

6Gman

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Yes!

CrossCountry should be the country’s most comfortable trains serving far apart destinations without the need to change trains.

I would advocate IET or loco-hauled trains, at least 9 coaches per set, with a good mix of airline and table seats, with a few DB style compartments for families. There should also be a proper buffet serving hot food and a restaurant/cafe serving simple hot meals.

I think realistically cascaded 222s is really the best we can hope for though.

And what fares level would be needed to fund that?
 

tbtc

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I find a lot of the "Terminate XC services at Leeds, York, Newcastle, Bristol and Reading amusing and short sighted. The operation is called "Cross-Country" not "Half Way Across the Country"

...just a case of dealing with the reality that there are only a certain number of carriages that XC currently have... the timetable is pathed to require a fast accelerating self-powered trains (i.e. long HSTs can't cope, and XC's timetable can't be easily rejigged to stretch a few extra minutes here and there)... so it makes more sense to me to focus more on XC's "core" route, rather than having ten Voyagers north of York at all times, so that they can chase the various LNER/TPE services from there to Edinburgh and back (when people are crammed onto trains between Manchester / Bristol/ Reading on routes that don't have as many alternatives)

Through long distance services are important. Cutting destinations will result in more changes, putting passengers off long distance travel by train.

Yup.

I'm perfectly relaxed about putting a certain number of long distance passengers away from train travel if that means a certain *larger* number of people will use trains over shorter/medium distances.

Most train journeys are under ninety minutes, so if focussing finite capacity on the XC core meant "x" more people travelled from Bristol to Birmingham but meant that "y" passengers no longer travelled from Bristol all the way to Dundee then I'd be fine with that, as long as "x" was significantly larger than "y"

Focus on taking cars off the roads, focus on the everyday simple journeys - if that means people are more likely to use the train to commute but less likely to use the train for their Cornish summer holiday or to see Grannie in Aberdeen then I'm fine with that - if it means more train journeys overall then the "cost" of a losing handful of long distance journeys is a price worth paying

We can't run a service that ticks every box - if running a simpler timetable means losing some of the long distance links then that's still worth doing.

The XC route has suffered for long enough. The DfT needs to realise not everyone travels to London and XC needs a new operator and big investment in new rolling stock with more capacity and bring back the WCML and Brighton, Poole, Portsmouth, Swansea etc to the XC routes.

Okay, you've listed four southern destinations (as well as the existing Bournemouth/ Paignton/ Newquay/ Penzance/ Cardiff destinations for the southern end of XC services). So that's nine places that XC services south of Birmingham could end up (as well as some obviously only going as far as Reading/ Bristol etc).

At the northern end you've got at least seven destinations (Nottingham/ Edinburgh via Leeds/ Edinburgh via Doncaster/ Manchester/ Edinburgh via Carlisle/ Glasgow via Carlisle/ Liverpool - before the crayonistas come along with Hull/ Bradford/ Lincoln/ Blackpool etc!)... How many services a day are you going to run so that everywhere has a direct service to everywhere else? How are you going to give a sensible balance of services through Birmingham at the same time as maintaining so many direct links?

Or do you just accept that giving a good Birmingham service for the "north east" / "north west" / "south east" and "south west" corridors is the main thing, and that any through service from Stockport to Southampton is a bonus rather than a significant enough market to insist on direct trains? (just like the way that the London Underground is based upon good frequencies into and out of Zone 1, rather than because there's specific demand to get from Cockfosters to Heathrow)

Wouldn't the bus (or coach) be less environmentally damaging than some train options ?

The bus/coach is much better suited to the kind of "stick Granny on a coach" market for people who have all day to wait around for one specific service, and will prefer a slow direct journey (to having to change) - that's a market that National Express seem much better at (than trying to tick lots of boxes with train services), but it's a market that National Express are slowly giving up on - there aren't enough people making those kind of "once a year" journeys to keep a service sustainable. And if you can't put enough people on a fifty seat coach to make it break even then good luck with a train...

I thought that in BR days it was known that a lot of XC users were to use the term VFR, or visiting friends and relatives, and these people weren't rail savvy and wanted to get on at there home station and off where they were going. They didn't want to change and certainly didn't want to go via London. That was what XC gave them to a large degree at the outset.
Incidentally I have a friend who lives on the south coast and has family in Scotland and this would still be her wish today, and I am sure any other peoples as well.

That VFR market does exist, but in BR days, it was able to provide it with an assortment of quirkily pathed services that ran on top of the general service on the line - the "Cross Country" trains were randomly timed (e.g. a train from Sheffield to York might go via Doncaster or Leeds or both or neither - the Pontefract route), so you didn't rely on them - if they turned up then they were a bonus, but it's nothing like the clock face service we have today.

On the modern railway, we have XC running the only services on some lines and providing the only direct link between some large pairs of cities - that's what their market is nowadays - whilst the "Dundee to Bournemouth" market is a nice little distraction, the meat and drink of the franchise will be boring everyday journeys like Manchester to Birmingham or Sheffield to Leeds or Cheltenham to Bristol - that's what XC need to focus on - if that means that some of the "Dundee to Bournemouth" passengers fly instead then I can accept that - there are significantly more people doing shorter journeys on a daily/weekly basis to lose significant sleep over the annual leisure trips IMHO.
 

Mogz

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And what fares level would be needed to fund that?

It would be nice if the fares were similar to those on the continent, which seem to fund services of the kind I suggested.

But as usual, I suspect the reality is that such a gold standard service is “not for
us Brits”.
 

LMS 4F

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...just a case of dealing with the reality that there are only a certain number of carriages that XC currently have... the timetable is pathed to require a fast accelerating self-powered trains (i.e. long HSTs can't cope, and XC's timetable can't be easily rejigged to stretch a few extra minutes here and there)... so it makes more sense to me to focus more on XC's "core" route, rather than having ten Voyagers north of York at all times, so that they can chase the various LNER/TPE services from there to Edinburgh and back (when people are crammed onto trains between Manchester / Bristol/ Reading on routes that don't have as many alternatives)



Yup.

I'm perfectly relaxed about putting a certain number of long distance passengers away from train travel if that means a certain *larger* number of people will use trains over shorter/medium distances.

Most train journeys are under ninety minutes, so if focussing finite capacity on the XC core meant "x" more people travelled from Bristol to Birmingham but meant that "y" passengers no longer travelled from Bristol all the way to Dundee then I'd be fine with that, as long as "x" was significantly larger than "y"

Focus on taking cars off the roads, focus on the everyday simple journeys - if that means people are more likely to use the train to commute but less likely to use the train for their Cornish summer holiday or to see Grannie in Aberdeen then I'm fine with that - if it means more train journeys overall then the "cost" of a losing handful of long distance journeys is a price worth paying

We can't run a service that ticks every box - if running a simpler timetable means losing some of the long distance links then that's still worth doing.



Okay, you've listed four southern destinations (as well as the existing Bournemouth/ Paignton/ Newquay/ Penzance/ Cardiff destinations for the southern end of XC services). So that's nine places that XC services south of Birmingham could end up (as well as some obviously only going as far as Reading/ Bristol etc).

At the northern end you've got at least seven destinations (Nottingham/ Edinburgh via Leeds/ Edinburgh via Doncaster/ Manchester/ Edinburgh via Carlisle/ Glasgow via Carlisle/ Liverpool - before the crayonistas come along with Hull/ Bradford/ Lincoln/ Blackpool etc!)... How many services a day are you going to run so that everywhere has a direct service to everywhere else? How are you going to give a sensible balance of services through Birmingham at the same time as maintaining so many direct links?

Or do you just accept that giving a good Birmingham service for the "north east" / "north west" / "south east" and "south west" corridors is the main thing, and that any through service from Stockport to Southampton is a bonus rather than a significant enough market to insist on direct trains? (just like the way that the London Underground is based upon good frequencies into and out of Zone 1, rather than because there's specific demand to get from Cockfosters to Heathrow)



The bus/coach is much better suited to the kind of "stick Granny on a coach" market for people who have all day to wait around for one specific service, and will prefer a slow direct journey (to having to change) - that's a market that National Express seem much better at (than trying to tick lots of boxes with train services), but it's a market that National Express are slowly giving up on - there aren't enough people making those kind of "once a year" journeys to keep a service sustainable. And if you can't put enough people on a fifty seat coach to make it break even then good luck with a train...



That VFR market does exist, but in BR days, it was able to provide it with an assortment of quirkily pathed services that ran on top of the general service on the line - the "Cross Country" trains were randomly timed (e.g. a train from Sheffield to York might go via Doncaster or Leeds or both or neither - the Pontefract route), so you didn't rely on them - if they turned up then they were a bonus, but it's nothing like the clock face service we have today.

On the modern railway, we have XC running the only services on some lines and providing the only direct link between some large pairs of cities - that's what their market is nowadays - whilst the "Dundee to Bournemouth" market is a nice little distraction, the meat and drink of the franchise will be boring everyday journeys like Manchester to Birmingham or Sheffield to Leeds or Cheltenham to Bristol - that's what XC need to focus on - if that means that some of the "Dundee to Bournemouth" passengers fly instead then I can accept that - there are significantly more people doing shorter journeys on a daily/weekly basis to lose significant sleep over the annual leisure trips IMHO.
By this logic why not stop all long distance trains, say over 80 miles, and concentrate on the core services. East Coast Peterborough to London would be the busiest so that's what we'll concentrate on.
Don't forget that as the railways are subsidised by the taxpayers everyone should be able to access services. I wouldn't expect an hourly service from say, Bournemouth to Glasgow but one a day each way ought to be possible.
Another way would of course be to put up fares on the busiest sections or discourage travel on certain sections as XC would like to do between
Leeds and Sheffield or East Coast between Leeds and Doncaster.
Rail travel should be for everyone or one day we will see closures mooted again because the outer parts of the network are too difficult or expensive to bother with.
 

Glenn1969

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IMHO XC should be a network of 2 per hour services that connect at Birmingham as follows:

Birmingham-Leeds-York
Birmingham- Bristol- Cardiff (hourly)/Plymouth (hourly)
Birmingham- Reading- Bournemouth (hourly)/Brighton (hourly)
Birmingham- Manchester
Birmingham- Crewe- Liverpool (hourly)/Scotland (hourly)

I would transfer Birmingham- Derby/Nottingham to EMR , leave serving Doncaster to TPE and LNER and transfer Leeds-Edinburgh to TPE
 

Bletchleyite

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Then you'd clog up New St with terminating services. I'm not sure there is really a lot wrong with the service pattern, to be honest. It just needs a rough doubling of capacity. Very similar to TPE in that regard[1], which of course is getting said rough doubling of capacity.

[1] Ignoring the Castlefield issue
 

tbtc

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By this logic why not stop all long distance trains, say over 80 miles, and concentrate on the core services. East Coast Peterborough to London would be the busiest so that's what we'll concentrate on

Most journeys that people take are under eighty miles - the vast majority of journeys over eighty miles will involve London (either to/ through/ from). Whilst there are obviously some people travelling further, these tend to be occasional journeys rather than everyday demand.

Beyond that, I don't think that there's *huge* demand to get between any two places over (say) two hundred miles apart - if there is a direct service then that's more a case of it being operationally convenient to link a "Newcastle to Birmingham" service to a "Birmingham to Southampton" service, rather than any huge demand to get from Newcastle to Southampton (just as I'd say that there's no particular reason why Scarborough gets a direct Liverpool service on TPE whilst Middlesbrough gets a direct Manchester Airport service - it's just the way that the timetable works, rather than any huge flow between two of the east coast places with destinations on the other side of the Pennines... same goes with whether Brighton's Thameslink service runs through to Bedford or Cambridge or Peterborough)

Don't forget that as the railways are subsidised by the taxpayers everyone should be able to access services

That sounds okay in theory but where do you draw the line in practice? There should be direct trains from everywhere to everywhere? Just because the tax payer subsidises trains massively (for the sake of fewer than 10% of people who use trains regularly), we should have a direct service between everywhere on one side of the country to another place?

I wouldn't expect an hourly service from say, Bournemouth to Glasgow but one a day each way ought to be possible

Again, nice in theory but how do you run a direct service from Aberdeen/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh/ Nottingham/ Manchester/ Liverpool (including running at least some of these services via Doncaster/ Leeds/ Carlisle) to Swansea/ Newquay/ Penzance/ Paignton/ Bournemouth/ Portsmouth/ Brighton/ Ramsgate - ensuring that everywhere gets at least one direct service a day? I'm just using places that were on the old XC map here, I could be facetious and pick a load of other places hundreds of miles apart (Inverness, Norwich, Holyhead, Blackpool, Hull etc).

This is the problem with these arguments - a daily service from Bournemouth to Glasgow doesn't sound unreasonable, but if there are ten "northern" routes/destinations and ten "southern" routes/destinations to link then that's going to create a really messy timetable.

IMHO the kind of time rich people able to sit around all day for that one direct journey are more suited to National Express services (and heavy rail would be much better concentrating on simple shorter bulk flows)

Rail travel should be for everyone or one day we will see closures mooted again because the outer parts of the network are too difficult or expensive to bother with

I'm fine with rail travel being more suitable to more people, but the way to keep rail viable and relevant is to provide reliable services tailored to the kind of short simple journeys that average people regularly make - good frequencies and capacity to the nearest big city and good connections between the bigger places - if that means that the handful of people travelling from Bournemouth to Glasgow each year decide to fly/drive then that's a price worth paying to attract more people to the network on regular journeys - the problem is that we are too focussed on the "fun" Bournemouth to Glasgow market and that means inadequate capacity for the "boring" problem of providing sufficient seats into Birmingham etc.
 

duffield

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Then you'd clog up New St with terminating services. I'm not sure there is really a lot wrong with the service pattern, to be honest. It just needs a rough doubling of capacity. Very similar to TPE in that regard[1], which of course is getting said rough doubling of capacity.

[1] Ignoring the Castlefield issue

Not just clogging up New Street, you're lengthening journeys considerably and forcing many XC customers to change at a non-ideal station**, and for once an hours services risking missed connections when connecting services are late. Splitting at Birmingham for me largely destroys the whole point of XC.

**Birmingham New Street is confusing for people not familiar with the layout and even if you are familiar struggling through the crowds with luggage to a far platform is going to be a nightmare. Also it already gets dangerously overcrowded at certain times so you would be *adding* to that overcrowding considerably, possibly causing platforms to be closed for safety reasons.

Whatever you do to XC, splitting everything at Birmingham seems to be about the worst possible 'solution'.
 

Meerkat

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The economics are ugly, especially as the most likely folk to want a long cross country trip without changes - students and old folk - are probably on railcards and travelling off peak.
 

ohgoditsjames

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IMHO XC should be a network of 2 per hour services that connect at leave serving Doncaster to TPE and LNER and transfer Leeds-Edinburgh to TPE

So Sheffield would lose one of it's fast connections to Doncaster? Why would you leave Leeds to Edinburgh to TPE, one of the worst performing TOC's?
 

Glenn1969

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TPE won't be one of the worst performing TOCs once new stock has bedded in and there are still 4tph Sheffield- Doncaster

I take the point about New St but think splitting would improve punctuality of long distance services and mean knock on is felt over a smaller area of the network
 

ohgoditsjames

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TPE won't be one of the worst performing TOCs once new stock has bedded in and there are still 4tph Sheffield- Doncaster

I take the point about New St but think splitting would improve punctuality of long distance services and mean knock on is felt over a smaller area of the network

But losing the fast connection to Doncaster isn't acceptable!
 

The Planner

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TPE won't be one of the worst performing TOCs once new stock has bedded in and there are still 4tph Sheffield- Doncaster

I take the point about New St but think splitting would improve punctuality of long distance services and mean knock on is felt over a smaller area of the network
So based on your original post, you are looking at 10 XC trains terminating at New St per hour? Really? Bearing in mind a turnround for a decent length service is going to be 15 minutes or more?
 

Thunderer

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I thought that in BR days it was known that a lot of XC users were to use the term VFR, or visiting friends and relatives, and these people weren't rail savvy and wanted to get on at there home station and off where they were going. They didn't want to change and certainly didn't want to go via London. That was what XC gave them to a large degree at the outset.
Incidentally I have a friend who lives on the south coast and has family in Scotland and this would still be her wish today, and I am sure any other peoples as well.
Exactly that..." Cross-Country" spot on.
 

Thunderer

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...just a case of dealing with the reality that there are only a certain number of carriages that XC currently have... the timetable is pathed to require a fast accelerating self-powered trains (i.e. long HSTs can't cope, and XC's timetable can't be easily rejigged to stretch a few extra minutes here and there)... so it makes more sense to me to focus more on XC's "core" route, rather than having ten Voyagers north of York at all times, so that they can chase the various LNER/TPE services from there to Edinburgh and back (when people are crammed onto trains between Manchester / Bristol/ Reading on routes that don't have as many alternatives)



Yup.

I'm perfectly relaxed about putting a certain number of long distance passengers away from train travel if that means a certain *larger* number of people will use trains over shorter/medium distances.

Most train journeys are under ninety minutes, so if focussing finite capacity on the XC core meant "x" more people travelled from Bristol to Birmingham but meant that "y" passengers no longer travelled from Bristol all the way to Dundee then I'd be fine with that, as long as "x" was significantly larger than "y"

Focus on taking cars off the roads, focus on the everyday simple journeys - if that means people are more likely to use the train to commute but less likely to use the train for their Cornish summer holiday or to see Grannie in Aberdeen then I'm fine with that - if it means more train journeys overall then the "cost" of a losing handful of long distance journeys is a price worth paying

We can't run a service that ticks every box - if running a simpler timetable means losing some of the long distance links then that's still worth doing.



Okay, you've listed four southern destinations (as well as the existing Bournemouth/ Paignton/ Newquay/ Penzance/ Cardiff destinations for the southern end of XC services). So that's nine places that XC services south of Birmingham could end up (as well as some obviously only going as far as Reading/ Bristol etc).

At the northern end you've got at least seven destinations (Nottingham/ Edinburgh via Leeds/ Edinburgh via Doncaster/ Manchester/ Edinburgh via Carlisle/ Glasgow via Carlisle/ Liverpool - before the crayonistas come along with Hull/ Bradford/ Lincoln/ Blackpool etc!)... How many services a day are you going to run so that everywhere has a direct service to everywhere else? How are you going to give a sensible balance of services through Birmingham at the same time as maintaining so many direct links?

Or do you just accept that giving a good Birmingham service for the "north east" / "north west" / "south east" and "south west" corridors is the main thing, and that any through service from Stockport to Southampton is a bonus rather than a significant enough market to insist on direct trains? (just like the way that the London Underground is based upon good frequencies into and out of Zone 1, rather than because there's specific demand to get from Cockfosters to Heathrow)



The bus/coach is much better suited to the kind of "stick Granny on a coach" market for people who have all day to wait around for one specific service, and will prefer a slow direct journey (to having to change) - that's a market that National Express seem much better at (than trying to tick lots of boxes with train services), but it's a market that National Express are slowly giving up on - there aren't enough people making those kind of "once a year" journeys to keep a service sustainable. And if you can't put enough people on a fifty seat coach to make it break even then good luck with a train...



That VFR market does exist, but in BR days, it was able to provide it with an assortment of quirkily pathed services that ran on top of the general service on the line - the "Cross Country" trains were randomly timed (e.g. a train from Sheffield to York might go via Doncaster or Leeds or both or neither - the Pontefract route), so you didn't rely on them - if they turned up then they were a bonus, but it's nothing like the clock face service we have today.

On the modern railway, we have XC running the only services on some lines and providing the only direct link between some large pairs of cities - that's what their market is nowadays - whilst the "Dundee to Bournemouth" market is a nice little distraction, the meat and drink of the franchise will be boring everyday journeys like Manchester to Birmingham or Sheffield to Leeds or Cheltenham to Bristol - that's what XC need to focus on - if that means that some of the "Dundee to Bournemouth" passengers fly instead then I can accept that - there are significantly more people doing shorter journeys on a daily/weekly basis to lose significant sleep over the annual leisure trips IMHO.
Do you work for National Express (or worse, the DFT) as you have a very downbeat view on what could be a fantastic service? The more you cut back to "core" routes then that makes sense that is what passengers will use the most as thats all thats on offer. Price is prohibitive to most people wanting to travel long distance on this network, forcing people to use alternatives. Then people lke yourselves and the DaFT say "no need for longer, more useful services, lets cut back to the core, run short trains, pack them in and charge them the earth" - that is not the answer for XC. This service needs to offer longer, more comfortable trains at reasonable prices to more destinations. Yes I can hear all the blinkered people saying "who's going to fund that?" - well if the DAFT can waste over £100 billion of our money building a new railway line between London and Birmingham (which most people don't want) then I'm sure that money could be better spent enhancing XC and other services, more electrification, better stations, new lines, would you not agree with that? Franchising is an outdated model and is no longer fit for purpose to run our railways, which is why its been scrutinised at the moment and alternatives being considered. Lets put the passenger first and the money grabbers 2nd for a change. Public Transport is meant to provide a decent public service as an alternative to the car, not a plaything for profiteers,
 

Thunderer

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IMHO XC should be a network of 2 per hour services that connect at Birmingham as follows:

Birmingham-Leeds-York
Birmingham- Bristol- Cardiff (hourly)/Plymouth (hourly)
Birmingham- Reading- Bournemouth (hourly)/Brighton (hourly)
Birmingham- Manchester
Birmingham- Crewe- Liverpool (hourly)/Scotland (hourly)

I would transfer Birmingham- Derby/Nottingham to EMR , leave serving Doncaster to TPE and LNER and transfer Leeds-Edinburgh to TPE
Its "Cross-Country" not "Birmingham and a bit" - cut this, cut that, transfer this bit etc. If thats done, then it really is no longer "Cross-Country" by definition or usefulness, that was my whole point with this thread.
 

Thunderer

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By this logic why not stop all long distance trains, say over 80 miles, and concentrate on the core services. East Coast Peterborough to London would be the busiest so that's what we'll concentrate on.
Don't forget that as the railways are subsidised by the taxpayers everyone should be able to access services. I wouldn't expect an hourly service from say, Bournemouth to Glasgow but one a day each way ought to be possible.
Another way would of course be to put up fares on the busiest sections or discourage travel on certain sections as XC would like to do between
Leeds and Sheffield or East Coast between Leeds and Doncaster.
Rail travel should be for everyone or one day we will see closures mooted again because the outer parts of the network are too difficult or expensive to bother with.
Spot on and 100% correct. You'll never get a job with the DFT, you have vision and common sense.
 

class26

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Do you work for National Express (or worse, the DFT) as you have a very downbeat view on what could be a fantastic service? The more you cut back to "core" routes then that makes sense that is what passengers will use the most as thats all thats on offer. Price is prohibitive to most people wanting to travel long distance on this network, forcing people to use alternatives. Then people lke yourselves and the DaFT say "no need for longer, more useful services, lets cut back to the core, run short trains, pack them in and charge them the earth" - that is not the answer for XC. This service needs to offer longer, more comfortable trains at reasonable prices to more destinations. Yes I can hear all the blinkered people saying "who's going to fund that?" - well if the DAFT can waste over £100 billion of our money building a new railway line between London and Birmingham (which most people don't want) then I'm sure that money could be better spent enhancing XC and other services, more electrification, better stations, new lines, would you not agree with that? Franchising is an outdated model and is no longer fit for purpose to run our railways, which is why its been scrutinised at the moment and alternatives being considered. Lets put the passenger first and the money grabbers 2nd for a change. Public Transport is meant to provide a decent public service as an alternative to the car, not a plaything for profiteers,

Just to answer your incorrect comment re HS2 it is NOT , repeat NOT costing 100 billion for a line from London to Brum. That is only one third of the project, albeit perhaps the most costly part but some of that is just to placate the chiltern brigade.
Also, how many times has it been said that this money CANNOT and WILL NOT be used elsewhere ? Why keep repeating falsehoods?
I thought that was the domain of Donald Trump? If you repeat something constantly it doesn`t make it true !

People saying they don`t want HS2 have no concept of what it will bring. There were similar people saying they did not want the M25 but there cannot be many people now in this country who have not used part of this motorway at some point and imagine that journey without it ?
 

Wtloild

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If their purpose is to run high(ish)-speed services to cities other than London, they're very much limited by the capacity & quality of non-London tracks.
If you were to get out your crayons & draw an ideal XC map from scratch, you'd probably try to come up with routes that genuinely cross the country - including places like Swansea, Hull, Norwich, Liverpool, Brighton.

As it stands, they're just a NE & Manchester to South Coast service with slowish spurs to Cardiff & Nottingham.
 

JonathanH

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If you were to get out your crayons & draw an ideal XC map from scratch, you'd probably try to come up with routes that genuinely cross the country - including places like Swansea, Hull, Norwich, Liverpool, Brighton.

No you wouldn't. You would have regard to geography and where people need and want to get to. You would not include any of those places (other than possibly Liverpool as previously discussed at length on this forum).

Instead you need to make it easy for people to change at the key stations for those destinations, ie Bristol Parkway or Cardiff for Swansea, Leeds, Doncaster or York for Hull, Peterborough for Norwich, Stafford or Crewe for Liverpool, stations on the Euston Road for Brighton.
 
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Wtloild

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No you wouldn't. You would have regard to geography and where people need and want to get to. You would not include any of those places (other than possibly Liverpool as previously discussed at length on this forum).

Instead you need to make it easy for people to change at the key stations for those destinations, ie Bristol Parkway or Cardiff for Swansea, Leeds, Doncaster or York for Hull, Peterborough for Norwich, Stafford or Crewe for Liverpool, stations on the Euston Road for Brighton.

As I said - they're constrained by the limits of the current 'network'.

As noted upthread, there is a significant proportion of the population who avoid the railways because of the current need to change trains numerous times.
 

Bletchleyite

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As noted upthread, there is a significant proportion of the population who avoid the railways because of the current need to change trains numerous times.

The real fix to that, though, is to improve the quality of connections. Other countries manage a connection based system, and nobody cares about changing on the Tube because the next train is in 2 minutes anyway.
 

LMS 4F

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The real fix to that, though, is to improve the quality of connections. Other countries manage a connection based system, and nobody cares about changing on the Tube because the next train is in 2 minutes anyway.
I would suggest that many of the connection stations would need major rebuilds if they were to persuade those reluctant to change trains to do just that.
Who would want to use New Street if they didn't need to I even if you were fit and healthy, let alone a bit older with luggage? Not everyone can have or even get assistance.
 
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