Could the Great Northern timetable be improved once Stevenage Platform 5 is in use?

[cle]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stevenage-platform-5.146540

Are there any frequency improvements coming? I assume Stevenage will turn just the 2tph, with the higher frequency operation from Hertford down?

 

[jon0844]

Are there any frequency improvements coming? I assume Stevenage will turn just the 2tph, with the higher frequency operation from Hertford down?

I'd hope that eventually there would be 4tph to Stevenage via the loop. Just as I one day would love to see Hatfield and WGC able to get 4tph to Cambridge (or even alternating between PBO) as it then offers a turn-up-and-go style service, and also makes it easier to get from, say, WGC to Hertford without huge waits or going via London.

When there's disruption, it gives people more options and helps with recovery times.

I don't think there's anything in the current management contract to do that though.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'd hope that eventually there would be 4tph to Stevenage via the loop. Just as I one day would love to see Hatfield and WGC able to get 4tph to Cambridge (or even alternating between PBO) as it then offers a turn-up-and-go style service, and also makes it easier to get from, say, WGC to Hertford without huge waits or going via London.

When there's disruption, it gives people more options and helps with recovery times.

I don't think there's anything in the current management contract to do that though.

And no paths over the Digswell viaduct either.

 

[hwl]

And no paths over the Digswell viaduct either.

Getting rid of the double block over the viaduct would help...
(from slam door days as they didn't want anyone going for an Indiana Jones style walk in mid air)

 

[jon0844]

And no paths over the Digswell viaduct either.

With the newer rolling stock, I think it might be possible to at least stop 2 PBO trains per hour at WGC with no real impact. Remember, the Cambridge stoppers sit for 2-3 minutes and then leave on a yellow. A few tweaks here and there and you've now got a more flexible service. These trains wouldn't need to stop at PBR or HAT as you could use an inner service to get you to WGC first.

It would certainly help when there's disruption on the Cambridge line, or if there's a cancellation and straight away an hour gap.

With more trains from SVG via the loop, you're now moving towards a better turn-up-and-go service where the timetable is less important to many. It would start to be more like the flexibility on the MML where you can just turn up at, say, St Albans and have very little time to wait - even on a weekend.

 

[Esker-pades]

With the newer rolling stock, I think it might be possible to at least stop 2 PBO trains per hour at WGC with no real impact. Remember, the Cambridge stoppers sit for 2-3 minutes and then leave on a yellow. A few tweaks here and there and you've now got a more flexible service. These trains wouldn't need to stop at PBR or HAT as you could use an inner service to get you to WGC first.

It would certainly help when there's disruption on the Cambridge line, or if there's a cancellation and straight away an hour gap.

With more trains from SVG via the loop, you're now moving towards a better turn-up-and-go service where the timetable is less important to many. It would start to be more like the flexibility on the MML where you can just turn up at, say, St Albans and have very little time to wait - even on a weekend.

I don't disagree with the reasoning for extra services, I just can't see any more paths over Digswell at the peak. Re-jigging paths is a lot more complicated than it once was given the ThamesLink services and the knock-on effects all the way down to Brighton etc.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage to Moorgate Via Hertford historically is 1tph with some peak hour extras so a doubling of the service to 2tph all day everyday (which I think is what is happening from May) is a decent increase.

Probably no need for 4tph via the loop.

Stevenage gets 4 trains per hour fast to Finsbury, 2 trains per hour semi fast and will get 2 trains an hour via the loop. In addition LNER services on top.

Pretty decent really.

 

[swt_passenger]

Stevenage to Moorgate Via Hertford historically is 1tph with some peak hour extras so a doubling of the service to 2tph all day everyday (which I think is what is happening from May) is a decent increase...

Realtimetrains does show that to be the intention, from start of service to end of the day.

 

[Kite159]

2tph Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford with 2tph from Hertford is probably a good timetable. Compared to 1tph as it was before May 18 when the timetable got changed. Nobody in Stevenage will use them end to end, and giving Watton-at-Stone 4tph seems a bit overkill.

 

[Fred26]

2tph Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford with 2tph from Hertford is probably a good timetable. Compared to 1tph as it was before May 18 when the timetable got changed. Nobody in Stevenage will use them end to end, and giving Watton-at-Stone 4tph seems a bit overkill.

What they need is an influential politician living nearby...

There certainly used to be passengers that took the Moorgate train from Stevenage, though the vast majority obviously would change at Finsbury Park. That's probably less likely now due to the extra capacity on fast services. Still could be a few though.

 

[adamedwards]

There was a plan a few years ago to massively expand Watton at Stone with a lot more housing and that would have led to an enhanced train service. But that never happened.

 

[bramling]

I'd hope that eventually there would be 4tph to Stevenage via the loop. Just as I one day would love to see Hatfield and WGC able to get 4tph to Cambridge (or even alternating between PBO) as it then offers a turn-up-and-go style service, and also makes it easier to get from, say, WGC to Hertford without huge waits or going via London.

When there's disruption, it gives people more options and helps with recovery times.

I don't think there's anything in the current management contract to do that though.

I wouldn’t advocate 4tph all the way to Stevenage, as with the single track section at the end this would reduce turnaround time to single figures and leave no room to breathe. 2tph to Stevenage and a further 2tph going round at Hertford seems decent to me. Remember there’s pretty minimal turnaround at the Moorgate end.

 

[bramling]

With the newer rolling stock, I think it might be possible to at least stop 2 PBO trains per hour at WGC with no real impact. Remember, the Cambridge stoppers sit for 2-3 minutes and then leave on a yellow. A few tweaks here and there and you've now got a more flexible service. These trains wouldn't need to stop at PBR or HAT as you could use an inner service to get you to WGC first.

It would certainly help when there's disruption on the Cambridge line, or if there's a cancellation and straight away an hour gap.

With more trains from SVG via the loop, you're now moving towards a better turn-up-and-go service where the timetable is less important to many. It would start to be more like the flexibility on the MML where you can just turn up at, say, St Albans and have very little time to wait - even on a weekend.

I’d say an all-day hourly fast Peterborough service would be more of a priority - 1tph like happens in the peaks would give the likes of Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade a fast service to London — and release capacity on the core services for those travelling from further in. Could stop that at Welwyn to provide a connection.

Welwyn is getting some faster Moorgate services from the new timetable, as some services seem to be omitting both Welham Green/Brookmans Park *and* Hornsey/Harringay. This will mean they’re only calling at four more stations than the KX 700 service. I’m not sure I see the logic to this, but that’s what’s happening.

 

[Aictos]

I’d say an all-day hourly fast Peterborough service would be more of a priority - 1tph like happens in the peaks would give the likes of Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade a fast service to London — and release capacity on the core services for those travelling from further in. Could stop that at Welwyn to provide a connection.

No because if it stopped at Welwyn GC to provide a connection it would only fill up with people wanting a non stop London service when they already have existing services to use so no I think this would be a terrible idea.

Far better to run it as far as Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggleswade, Stevenage then Kings Cross and as a 12 car service.

Welwyn is getting some faster Moorgate services from the new timetable, as some services seem to be omitting both Welham Green/Brookmans Park *and* Hornsey/Harringay. This will mean they’re only calling at four more stations than the KX 700 service. I’m not sure I see the logic to this, but that’s what’s happening.

That makes no sense at all to me, surely with the improved acceleration of the 717s the WGC stoppers should be able to call all stations again?

 

[D365]

No because if it stopped at Welwyn GC to provide a connection it would only fill up with people wanting a non stop London service when they already have existing services to use so no I think this would be a terrible idea.

Far better to run it as far as Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggleswade, Stevenage then Kings Cross and as a 12 car service.

Turning the peak hour Great Northern service (as you describe) into an all-day could well be appreciated. There's plenty of stock to do it between the peaks, I guess it's just about whether the numbers add up.

That makes no sense at all to me, surely with the improved acceleration of the 717s the WGC stoppers should be able to call all stations again?

Doesn't part of the issue relate to the fact that Hornsey and Harringay each only have one platform face in each direction?

 

[bramling]

No because if it stopped at Welwyn GC to provide a connection it would only fill up with people wanting a non stop London service when they already have existing services to use

What's wrong with that? An 8-car train outside of peaks should have enough capacity to absorb all that.

That makes no sense at all to me, surely with the improved acceleration of the 717s the WGC stoppers should be able to call all stations again?

The revised timings are only making a very small difference to journey times, a matter of a couple of minutes per service. They have taken the opportunity to lengthen dwell times in a few places too.

Personally I think the current service pattern is better. They've now created something pretty complex in terms of variations to stopping patterns, such that someone wishing to make intermediate journeys will now need to be quite reliant on the timetable. Likewise with everything now going off platform 4 at Welwyn is has reduced turnround time there, which will have an effect on recovering from disruption. They've managed to save a unit during the day, but this doesn't have much benefit as it will simply sit in Welwyn sidings so won't be being maintained as such.

 

[bramling]

Turning the peak hour Great Northern service (as you describe) into an all-day could well be appreciated. There's plenty of stock to do it between the peaks, I guess it's just about whether the numbers add up.

££££££££.

A rough calculation would suggest 6x 365s would be required to provide an hourly 8-car service. I can't see that being a problem as even though 365 maintenance takes place during the midday period, there's no way all 21x units are being maintained at any one time.

A bigger problem would be that it would require drivers. Perhaps if there ever comes a situation where there aren't drivers moving back and forth pass between Finsbury Park and the country-end depots then it might release a few.