Virgin Traveller Club

[MKB]

The T&C's state that "an acceptable form of ID is required" to allow people to use the travellers card.

Acutally, the T&Cs don't say that. They are here: http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/traveller/terms-conditions/ The relevant section is the third sentence of section 14 which states: "You may also be asked for a second form of signed identification to verify your Traveller Membership."

So a bank or credit card meets the criteria. This is all I am able to produce and has always been accepted without question. Frankly, I'm amazed that VT have never incorporated a photo into the membership card.

As a result of this people think they use any old card with a name on it. Bank cards are just as easily changed hands as the travellers cards themselves. Anyone who pulls a bank card on me is treated with scepticism as I am not able to identify that person by a bank card. Most buckle under 2 minutes of questioning and fess up to getting the card and tickets from friends or relatives who thought they were clever.

It's sad that some VT staff treat law-abiding passengers as fraudsters who are guilty until they can prove their innocence. I already find the carding and secondary id check intrusive, especially when carried out multiple times during a single journey. If I met this sort of tertiary questioning, the individual would get short shrift from me. Fortunately, there are still a lot of decent train managers about.

 

[RAPC]

I'm on my 5th attempt to sign up to the Traveller Club over a period of about 6 months.

First set of tickets went missing, but Virgin acknowledged they received them but hadn't validated them so they couldn't give me membership. I had another batch of 1st class tickets almost at the qualifying number, so didn't push it too much after they refused to give me membership despite them losing them.

Second set of tickets were received, but two of the tickets (thanks to their call centre) had spelt my surname with an incorrect first letter. Traveller sent them back with a refusal letter AND forgot to frank the mail, so I had to pay a couple of quid to get my refusal letter and tickets back :roll:

Spoke to them and they told me to send the tickets back with a covering letter explaining why the name wasn't consistent on the tickets. Did so and got another refusal letter as the tickets were all from within a 3 month window, but they received them 3 months and 2 days after the first ticket, so I was outside of the qualifying period. Spoke to them again and they refused to budge, despite knowing that they were originally submitted in the correct time period.

Fourth set of tickets went to them 5 weeks ago. This time, no joy as these were not received and lost somewhere by Royal Mail.

Fifth set of tickets were sent on Friday by recorded delivery, are all from the last 8 weeks and nothing older than 9 weeks ago. If they don't accept these, I'm heading down to Melksham to deliver the next ones by hand and watch them process them!

I hope it is worth it after all of this. They certainly have done nothing to make it easy joining, that's for sure.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Thanks for your feedback

*mental note* "send by recorded delivery"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TicketMan, what form do the Traveller tickets come in?

Are they like Advance tickets with 2 coupons, a seat reservation and a particular service you have to catch?
Or are they more flexible?

Are they printed on normal orange stock? Or something different? Thanks!

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure they're just like 'normal' Advance tickets, with compulsory reservations (if you're on the wrong train you have enough disposable income to flash the cash and buy a new mega expensive ticket ) and yes, printed on boring orange stock as everything is these days!

 

[Old Timer]

Pleased to say that Virgin have agreed with my thoughts, and have granted me membership of the Travellers Club.

Nice one.

 

[Ticket Man]

Acutally, the T&Cs don't say that. They are here: http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/traveller/terms-conditions/ The relevant section is the third sentence of section 14 which states: "You may also be asked for a second form of signed identification to verify your Traveller Membership."

So a bank or credit card meets the criteria.

Credit or debit cards are not identification

It's sad that some VT staff treat law-abiding passengers as fraudsters who are guilty until they can prove their innocence. I already find the carding and secondary id check intrusive, especially when carried out multiple times during a single journey. If I met this sort of tertiary questioning, the individual would get short shrift from me. Fortunately, there are still a lot of decent train managers about.

By some sad staff I'll assume you mean the way I deal with Travellers cards, In the some 30 odd fraudulent travellers cards I have found in the past 18 months I think I have only been wrong on one occasion and then I gave a full apology to the customer.
Genuine customers normally have a wallet full of cards with their name on it and have no problem confirming their identity. It is not as you say "passengers being guilty until they can prove they are innocent" but customers proving they are eligible for the benefits of the travellers club.
Further more, if I did not pursue these fraudulent travellers cards, how long do you think that the travellers club would be around before virgin pulled the plug?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for your feedback

TicketMan, what form do the Traveller tickets come in?

Are they like Advance tickets with 2 coupons, a seat reservation and a particular service you have to catch?
Or are they more flexible?

Are they printed on normal orange stock? Or something different? Thanks!

Yorkie is spot on, compulsory reservations, non flexible and printed on boring orange stock

although i think they dish out a shiny keyring though

 

[Old Timer]

Well said Ticket Man.

The Traveller Club has quite simple and clear membership rules. As far as I am concerned it is a privilege, and should be treated as such.

If someone decides to break the rules of their membership, then as far as I am concerned they should have their membership withdrawn, and both they and the person travelling should be reported for fare evasion/deception and fraud.

Is it me or do I detect within the UK a growing view that terms and conditions are OK as long as they suit people but when they do not suit them they can be ignored at will ?

The same people no doubt would be the first at the barricades if the other party acted in that manner ?

 

[bnm]

Credit or debit cards are not identification

Says who? No laws stating what can and cannot be accepted as identification, except maybe for passport applications. If Virgin say in their T&Cs that another form of signed identification may be asked for then a Credit/Debit card will suffice. If the TM is suspicious about the holder having 'borrowed' the cards then he should call the police and report suspected credit card theft, fare evasion and fraud.

 

[ukrob]

Says who? No laws stating what can and cannot be accepted as identification, except maybe for passport applications. If Virgin say in their T&Cs that another form of signed identification may be asked for then a Credit/Debit card will suffice. If the TM is suspicious about the holder having 'borrowed' the cards then he should call the police and report suspected credit card theft, fare evasion and fraud.

Whoa, when did laws come into it? It is up to Virgin to decide what identification to accept, and them alone.

 

[Ticket Man]

Says who? No laws stating what can and cannot be accepted as identification, except maybe for passport applications. If Virgin say in their T&Cs that another form of signed identification may be asked for then a Credit/Debit card will suffice. If the TM is suspicious about the holder having 'borrowed' the cards then he should call the police and report suspected credit card theft, fare evasion and fraud.

the meaning of the word identification means that bank cards are not so.

If I was to show you a bank card, does that mean you can identify the name on that card as being me?

 

[Old Timer]

The need to prove identity must include a document that contains a photograph of the person otherwise there is no certainty that a person is who they purport to be.

Acceptable identitfication as far as I am aware consists of one or more of the following :

• Valid passport
• Valid photographic driver's licence
• Valid photographic EU/EEA or Swiss national identity card
• Valid armed forces identity card
• Valid police warrant card/badge

Those are certainly the minimum for passing through airport security.

Many organisations will accept employers photo id cards, and for us Railway staff I believe Virgin will accept Sentinel cards/SCWID cards.

Banks will only accept a passport or photo id driving license for high value transactions unless they know you personally, in which case they may accept employer id cards.

 

[bnm]

The need to prove identity must include a document that contains a photograph of the person otherwise there is no certainty that a person is who they purport to be.

And yet, here's me without a passport or driving license (in fact no photo ID whatsoever) and I've sucessfully opened bank accounts, obtained credit, got a mortgage, claimed state benefits, secured employment and so on. The supposed need to have photo ID for so many things today is one of the worst aspects of a collective paranoia generated by the last government and the media. Praise be that ID cards are no longer on the agenda.

I'll concur that a credit/debit card is not absolute proof of identity, but it is useful for signature confirmation, so I'd guess in the context of confirming ownership of the Virgin Traveller's Club card it will suffice. Indeed I hope it would suffice. I've always got my bank cards on me when I'm out, but rarely carry any other form of ID.

Banks will only accept a passport or photo id driving license for high value transactions unless they know you personally, in which case they may accept employer id cards.

This one's also not strictly true. I obtained a large banker's draft for a car purchase and the teller initially asked for photo ID. Explaining I opened the account without a photo, I asked do I need photo ID to close the account and withdraw the funds in cash? Quick conference with the Manager, couple of security questions and I got my banker's draft. No photo ID shown.

All identification rules are guidelines only, no basis in law (excepting for foreign travel), and it is up to the individual business or organisation as to what they will or will not accept.

 

[Old Timer]

And yet, here's me without a passport or driving license.

then you say

...... I obtained a large banker's draft for a car purchase and the teller...

I'll concur that a credit/debit card is not absolute proof of identity, but it is useful for signature confirmation, so I'd guess in the context of confirming ownership of the Virgin Traveller's Club card it will suffice. Indeed I hope it would suffice. I've always got my bank cards on me when I'm out, but rarely carry any other form of ID.

Signature ID is completely insecure hence the high levels of fraud where it is in use. That is why we moved to chip and pin.

I obtained a large banker's draft for a car purchase and the teller initially asked for photo ID. Explaining I opened the account without a photo, I asked do I need photo ID to close the account and withdraw the funds in cash? Quick conference with the Manager, couple of security questions and I got my banker's draft. No photo ID shown..

As you presumably dont seem to travel about, I presume it was the branch where you were known.

I personally would be pretty peed off if my bank was as lax as this to a stranger. What one is it ?

All identification rules are guidelines only, no basis in law (excepting for foreign travel), and it is up to the individual business or organisation as to what they will or will not accept.

Not entirely correct, but never mind.

 

[Ticket Man]

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one

and it is up to the individual business or organisation as to what they will or will not accept.

Also on the basis that you carry no form of photographic I.D (even my mum carries a provisional driving license and she's never been near the wheel of a car) I'm sure your wallet contains more than one card with your name on it. A wallet with your name plastered all over it (not literally) is far more convincing than presenting a lone bank card.

It is my observation that your lack off photographic ID is obviously hampering your day to day life, indeed the example you gave at the bank caused you to be delayed while the teller conferred with their manager and even longer to be put through security. I'm sure you have experienced other situations as well where photo ID would have been advantageous.

I wouldn't have my job on the railway if I didn't have any.

 

[bnm]

Old Timer....

Since when did you need a driving license to buy your partner a car? Don't presume.

You'll see that I concurred regarding using a credit/debit card as ID in general. However, signature ID should suffice for a check on a Virgin Travellers Club card. Don't presume otherwise. Their Travellers Club T&Cs are ambiguous enough with regard to ID and therefore the ambiguity has to cut both ways. If Virgin are really concerned about Travellers Club fraud then they have a simple solution to hand: require a photo on application/renewal. Why should I carry a passport or a driving license (if held) when travelling by train within the UK? I'd find it an affront to be required to produce supplimentary photo ID (i.e. a piece of photo ID not related to rail travel) to a TM/Guard/Conductor. Let them compare my signature with a credit/debit card by all means. If there is a suspicion of fraud then call the police. No need to do this overtly, but better be sure you have well founded suspicions. Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Something that is slowly being eroded on the railways.

I do travel about. A lot. Not anal enough to keep a track of the rail miles covered in a year, but it's a fair few. Again don't presume.

The bank was NatWest, it wasn't my local branch. There are enough personal details held by banks to confirm a customer's identity. Insisting on Photo ID for a large transaction is not going to put off an adept fraudster. How many bank tellers know what to look for in a fake piece of photo ID? Hell, I was making a small cash withdrawal as well with the 100% fraud proof ( :roll: ) Chip and Pin system. Again don't presume.

Ticket Man.....

My day to day life is in no way hampered by not having Photograhic ID. The delay at the bank was no more than it would have been with photo ID. The bankers draft had to be authorised by the branch manager anyway - who concurred that photo ID was not necessary - the same security questions would've been asked regardless. So, like I've said to Old Timer, don't presume.

Finally, I'm more than happy that I don't have to routinely carry Photo ID. It certainly wasn't routinely necessary in 1997, so what's changed? Oh I know.... an absurdly paranoid nannying government who thought that closely monitoring it's citizens every moves would somehow make the world a safer/better place. Paranoia that was fuelled by the media and soaked up by all strata of society. Hence the belief that every Tom, Dick or Harry has the right to demand ID. Slippery slope that I hope will now be gritted!

 

[Ticket Man]

bnm

Lets get a few things straight
1. I don't and have never worked for a Labour government (whom you seem to have a real problem with)
2. I'm not telling you to carry anything that would remotely identify you
3. BTP will not attend a miss-matched signature
4. I don't know of a single person who was successfully prosecuted by the railway with out being proven guilty.
5. Chip & Pin is more secure than signature comparison


Whilst I apologise for any offence caused over any presumption I made, why is it so wrong to prove you are eligible for a benefit?

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer....

Since when did you need a driving license to buy your partner a car? Don't presume.

I didn't. You did.

...You'll see that I concurred regarding using a credit/debit card as ID in general. However, signature ID should suffice for a check on a Virgin Travellers Club card. Don't presume otherwise.

I didn't. I pointed out what is a known and established fact.

If Virgin are really concerned about Travellers Club fraud then they have a simple solution to hand: require a photo on application/renewal. Why should I carry a passport or a driving license (if held) when travelling by train within the UK? I'd find it an affront to be required to produce supplimentary photo ID (i.e. a piece of photo ID not related to rail travel) to a TM/Guard/Conductor.

No one says you have to carry a passport or driving license when travelling by train.

The matter is quite simply one of the TM being reasonably satisfied that you ARE who you claim to be. I think even the Police would require more than a Traveller Card, and a sole bank card before accepting your claim. Pretty much everyone I know travels with more than one item of identity, which was TM's point I believe ?

The fact that he has identified a significant element who are abusing the system is demonstrative of the need to be certain in those cases of doubt.

Let them compare my signature with a credit/debit card by all means. If there is a suspicion of fraud then call the police. No need to do this overtly, but better be sure you have well founded suspicions. Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Something that is slowly being eroded on the railways.

Not innocent in that particular case, so nothing is being eroded. Staff who deal with revenue protection issues day in and day out develop the ability to detect when something is not right.

...

I didn't. I commented on your words. Now you let us have a fact that we did not have before, which subtly alters things.

The bank was NatWest, it wasn't my local branch. There are enough personal details held by banks to confirm a customer's identity. Insisting on Photo ID for a large transaction is not going to put off an adept fraudster. How many bank tellers know what to look for in a fake piece of photo ID?

Fraudsters do not operate in that way as they would be identified by CCTV, etc. Only the less intelligent show their face to a CCTV when up to such tricks !

 

[bnm]

OK. Fine. I give in.

I'll carry a photo in future. Countersigned by my doctor, Chief Constable, and the Archbishop of Canterbury. That should keep all the jobsworths* out there happy.

OT, your fraudster may well be identified by CCTV, but by then he's got what he wanted. Risk versus reward. CCTV doesn't prevent crime, never has. Helps solve crimes. Also good at moving criminal activity elsewhere. I know what I'm talking about - reformed n'er-do-well you see, now working with young offenders.

Oh, and TM, I voted Labour in 1992, 1997, 2001 and tactically in 2005. Doesn't withdraw my right to be critical of certain policy decisions.

*A general comment, not a specific slight. Please don't presume otherwise.

 

[Old Timer]

I dont think anyone has suggested the NEED to carry photo id, its just that there is so many forms of photo id today, workplace passes, PTE area travel cards, bus passes, competency certificates etc around these days.

Whilst other Countries have a National ID card system, it was the linking up of various data banks and the way that Labour intended to use them that caused concern.

Having worked in Countries which use them I can see their benefits, however there is something particularly worrying at the way that our freedoms have been eroded in the UK in the last 13 years that sets many people against them.

 

[Ticket Man]

OK. Fine. I give in.

I'll carry a photo in future. Countersigned by my doctor, Chief Constable, and the Archbishop of Canterbury. That should keep all the jobsworths out there happy.

No I'm not happy, I want to understand why you are reacting so adversely to this matter. I hardly think it unreasonable to be identified as eligible for a benefit.
You have caused real offence to me with your in-direct insult. You have shown that you are determined to win at all costs and resorting to insults is your final gasp of an indefensible position.

 

[bnm]

Absolutely fine to be identified as eligible for a benefit. Do it at the point of application as I suggested upthread. I carry a DSB railcard and often wonder why you are not asked to provide a photo on application. I'd happily carry it. The more militant in the disabled community (yes, there is a militant tendency out there!) may argue otherwise - that's their right and I respect that. The point I'm trying to make is that I see it as unwarranted to have to carry supplimentary photo ID.

Humble apologies for causing offence with the 'in-direct insult'. There was a footnote saying I was not slighting anyone specifically. Ian Coucher could be offended by your forum signature! I have worked on the 'frontline' in the Rail industry and saw good and bad among fellow employees.

The points I raised were not meant to be taken as a 'determination to win at all costs'. Just a different point of view.

Again, sorry if I caused offence.

 

[CarterUSM]

I think the problem is partly consistency, or lack thereof. People can be tetchy sometimes with regards being taken at face value. One member of staff can be less stringent than the next, if i had a pound for every time i hear, "i've been getting this ticket all week", or "why is it not valid today when it was yesterday ?", i'd have a few quid! I don't think it is unreasonable to comply with conditions attached to tickets and the like, for example, on some routes i work, it is a major inconvenience for a minority of passengers to even produce their travel documents, though that is another story. Of course i find a vast majority of my passengers a pleasure to carry!

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Slightly off topic (thank god!) but didn't seem worth starting a new thread.

Anybody know what day of the week the food options change?
I travelled on Friday and want to make sure I won't get the same thing again if I go Monday/Tuesday. Cheers!

 

[Old Timer]

The food options seem to change on a Monday but there is no pattern to it that I have yet managed to work out, and therefore you can have the same options for two maybe three weeks. Sometimes the hot option will change during the week, sometimes one of the cold options will continue and then suddenly change in the week.

It also appears to be related to which particular service you are on. For example in the last couple of weeks I have been on Manchester, Liverpool and Wolverhampton services and each had a slightly different option.

Logic, if there is any must be with the Catering Manager or the individual depots.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Haha ok thanks anyway.

Last week was egg sandwich or salmon salad. I like salmon but there wasn't much of it and I can't stand egg!
The lemon cupcake was too bitter for me too, so holding out for some new stuff!

 

[drinker]

Hi, another lurker here but I thought I'd post on this topic as I've been a Traveller member for 3 years.

Firstly I find the Traveller membership is a great perk. We often take the kids down to London for the weekend or up to Glasgow (we are North West based).

On the subject of ID, I was asked for secondary ID for the first time last week. Are they tightening up on it? Anyway I never carry photo ID for trips to London, just a bank card and a credit card. The TM accepted this and didn't ask for any signature. In my opinion the T&C's are very vague... if credit card ID is not deemed good enough then the T&C's should be more specific on this point. I have never felt the need to carry photo ID whilst travelling in the UK and even though I have lots of plastic in a wallet at home, I make a point of only carrying what I need for my trip on my person instead of carrying a very bulky wallet around which I would be worried to lose. I always try and travel as light as possible!

Just out of interest, if a TM decided that a credit card wasn't an acceptable form of ID, what would they do about it?

On a similar note, can I ask what are the T&C's regarding disabled adult travel cards? My wife has a disabled card and has never ever been asked for supporting ID in the many years she has has the card. She is not 'obviously' disabled (she is hard of hearing). I'm just curious really... it's not meant to be a challenging question. The card has no photo and my wife also rarely carries photo ID on her.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

My guess is they'd make you buy 4 full priced first class single tickets

*quick calculation*

£134.70 + £134.70 + £67.35 + £67.35 = £404.10!!

 

[drinker]

Hmmm, in that case I think it is the fault of the T&C's for not detailing what ID would be considered as acceptable. For consistency's sake (and fairness).

We have never previously felt the need to carry any more ID than we do.
Luckily it hasn't been an issue though

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Personally, I always have my driver's licence with me.

But if you're travelling down, as you said you'll have credit and debit cards, more than likely a hotel reservation or something similar.

The combination of these would more than satisfy me if I was train manager

 

[Broken Viking]

My guess is they'd make you buy 4 full priced first class single tickets
£134.70 + £134.70 + £67.35 + £67.35 = £404.10!!

I was thinking of doing just this at the start of the year as I was interested in clocking up some serious Pendo mileage (Come on...Some of us like our high-speed runs, no matter the class! :razz but that was before I learned that complimentary Traveller tickets are one per weekend, minimum one night away, and are subject to the same availability and limitations as many Advance fares...Although if I was a regular FC traveller and could have those on the back of my regular travel, I definitely wouldn't be complaining about the "Advance like" bit!

IIRC though; I was asking about the cheapest qualifying fares here a while ago (IIRC: Only fares => 70,- count) and there was a 71,50 FOR available in the North West, between Preston and Carlisle I think. Try running a search for my posts with the words "VWC" and "Traveller" in them.