TFW North Wales - Should this service Switch to Manchester Victoria?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Platform 6, I think.
There was such a service more than ten years ago, Chester-Crewe-Airport. At least you didn't need to check the departure boards at Crewe to find which platform it was using! I didn't live in Wilmslow at the time, but I'm not sure if even stopped at Wilmslow, and it only ran for one or perhaps two timetable years if my memory serves correctly. I can't imagine any way it could be resurrected without culling other calls at Crewe (eg the Liverpool-Euston services) to free up limited platform space.

There were only about 3 trains a day, some at silly hours.
It coincided with a track fault on the Crewe diamond which prevented trains from Chester reaching P6 for months.
Instead, the Airport trains (Pacers) ran into P11 and then out to Gresty Lane, reversing back through the station to reach the Manchester line, to the consternation of passengers and onlookers.
It was introduced as FNW "compensation" for poor performance, and as you say it didn't survive the WCML upgrade which reduced services at Crewe for a few years.
I think you are right about not serving Wilmslow, but it stopped for ages at Heald Green South Jn waiting for access to the Airport.

 

[craigybagel]

Platform 6, I think.
There was such a service more than ten years ago, Chester-Crewe-Airport. At least you didn't need to check the departure boards at Crewe to find which platform it was using! I didn't live in Wilmslow at the time, but I'm not sure if even stopped at Wilmslow, and it only ran for one or perhaps two timetable years if my memory serves correctly. I can't imagine any way it could be resurrected without culling other calls at Crewe (eg the Liverpool-Euston services) to free up limited platform space.

Correct, platform 6 is the only one with access to both the Chester and Manchester lines at Crewe. What's an even bigger problem is the fact you'd need find another two windows to cross the WCML on the flat every hour. Either reason alone would probably be a deal breaker, but the two together.....

As for the original post, it's been rumoured for years but nothing has officially been confirmed. And with three seperate depots signing the route there's not a hope you're going to get all the traincrew trained up on Victoria by May. It may not be a very long route, but you're talking about nearly a hundred drivers and a similar amount of guards.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I remember lots of the Bangor services going to Victoria back in the early 1990s, and at least some went through to Wakefield

 

[krus_aragon]

I remember lots of the Bangor services going to Victoria back in the early 1990s, and at least some went through to Wakefield

That of course was in the days of Regional Railways, when there were services that continued across the Pennines, too (originating from Llandudno, as a rule?). No sticky franchise boundaries to get in the way.

Going further back, it was fairly universal that services from North Wales went to Victoria/Exchange, wasn't it?

 

[Roose]

Totally agree, i've gone from Frodsham to Man Airport a few times, after Piccadilly there is hardly anyone on it.

The point about airport services is to provide regular connectivity for travellers, some of whom may be encumbered with luggage. They will be busier at some times than others, like any other routes.

Passengers (the people for whom trains are run) prefer not having to change.

My experience of airport trains and of waiting on platform 14 at Piccadilly is that I have never seen one of these trains with 'hardly anyone' on it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That of course was in the days of Regional Railways, when there were services that continued across the Pennines, too (originating from Llandudno, as a rule?). No sticky franchise boundaries to get in the way.
Going further back, it was fairly universal that services from North Wales went to Victoria/Exchange, wasn't it?

They were all routed into Exchange 1884-1969, otherwise Victoria.
There used to be a long-standing overnight York/Leeds-Manchester-Holyhead service (part of the Irish Mail connections).
The Castlefield route into Piccadilly was not used until the general switch of services from Victoria after the Hazel Grove and Salford Crescent links were built in 1986/7.
It seems hard to believe now, but Ordsall Lane-Deansgate was not used by regular passenger trains until then.

From Chester there was no connection at Mickle Trafford to the CLC route to Manchester until 1969, when Northgate closed.
There was then the odd train from North Wales to Manchester via Altrincham in the 1970s (Sundays I think).
You could also reach Manchester Central/Oxford Road from Chester/North Wales via Warrington Arpley, Lymm and Timperley until 1963, but I don't ever remember a scheduled service that way.
It was used for summer holiday services between Sheffield and North Wales via Stockport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passengers (the people for whom trains are run) prefer not having to change.

Indeed so, but they can't always have that if too many trains through the Castlefield corridor is wrecking the entire North West railway network, as it indeed is.

I find the direct service from Bletchley to Liverpool Lime St useful on occasions, however I recognise that it may have to go in favour of the more important requirement of making the south WCML commuter services punctual and reliable again.

Even if P15/16 is approved, which I support, service cuts (recognised by the TOCs and NR to be 2-3 trains per hour removed from the corridor) are still absolutely required in the short term to return stability until it is brought into use, which would take a couple of years.

 

[frodshamfella]

The point about airport services is to provide regular connectivity for travellers, some of whom may be encumbered with luggage. They will be busier at some times than others, like any other routes.

Passengers (the people for whom trains are run) prefer not having to change.

My experience of airport trains and of waiting on platform 14 at Piccadilly is that I have never seen one of these trains with 'hardly anyone' on it.

Well as a "passenger" from personal experience there are.

 

[frodshamfella]

Indeed so, but they can't always have that if too many trains through the Castlefield corridor is wrecking the entire North West railway network, as it indeed is.

I find the direct service from Bletchley to Liverpool Lime St useful on occasions, however I recognise that it may have to go in favour of the more important requirement of making the south WCML commuter services punctual and reliable again.

Even if P15/16 is approved, which I support, service cuts (recognised by the TOCs and NR to be 2-3 trains per hour removed from the corridor) are still absolutely required in the short term to return stability until it is brought into use, which would take a couple of years.

Indeed it's more important from longer distance services to pass through Castlefield linking big towns and cities, like the Norwich train, than loads of Manchester Airport services from all over the place.

 

[a22book]

Another option would be to shut the Ordsall curve until platform 15 and 16 are built at Piccadilly

 

[faltskog36abba]

They were all routed into Exchange 1884-1969, otherwise Victoria.
There used to be a long-standing overnight York/Leeds-Manchester-Holyhead service (part of the Irish Mail connections).
The Castlefield route into Piccadilly was not used until the general switch of services from Victoria after the Hazel Grove and Salford Crescent links were built in 1986/7.
It seems hard to believe now, but Ordsall Lane-Deansgate was not used by regular passenger trains until then.

From Chester there was no connection at Mickle Trafford to the CLC route to Manchester until 1969, when Northgate closed.
There was then the odd train from North Wales to Manchester via Altrincham in the 1970s (Sundays I think).
You could also reach Manchester Central/Oxford Road from Chester/North Wales via Warrington Arpley, Lymm and Timperley until 1963, but I don't ever remember a scheduled service that way.
It was used for summer holiday services between Sheffield and North Wales via Stockport.

Back in the 80s the TPE trains used to run from Newcastle to north wales, Also just before they switched over to the Castlefield Line - There used to be an Stalybridge to Llandudno service in the early 90s.

 

[Esker-pades]

Another option would be to shut the Ordsall curve until platform 15 and 16 are built at Piccadilly

You'd then have the problem of what to do with the Manchester Airport-bound services once they reached Stalybridge.

Currently, those services don't have paths through Ashburys onto Manchester Piccadilly. There will also be an issue with platform capacity at Piccadilly for those services to reverse or terminate. They have to cross all the other lines at the Piccadilly throat to get to/from the Airport. Sorting out paths through these places, and (crucially) paths that map on to one another, is difficult. That's why they were diverted to Victoria in the first place.

Victoria doesn't have much spare platform capacity either to terminate. Would the TransPennine sets fit into platforms 1 & 2? If not, then you're slightly stuffed.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Victoria doesn't have much spare platform capacity either to terminate. Would the TransPennine sets fit into platforms 1 & 2? If not, then you're slightly stuffed.

A 185 fits OK, neither of the 5 car TPE types would fit

 

[VT 390]

A 185 fits OK, neither of the 5 car TPE types would fit

Also at least 1 of those platforms is still used by Northern as well as only having a single track to access both those platforms.

If the TfW service was diverted to Victoria it would have the advantage of all Chester fast services going from the same station and if Chester passengers really wanted Piccadilly they could always get the slower Northern service via Altrincham.

 

[markymark2000]

You'd then have the problem of what to do with the Manchester Airport-bound services once they reached Stalybridge.

Currently, those services don't have paths through Ashburys onto Manchester Piccadilly. There will also be an issue with platform capacity at Piccadilly for those services to reverse or terminate. They have to cross all the other lines at the Piccadilly throat to get to/from the Airport. Sorting out paths through these places, and (crucially) paths that map on to one another, is difficult. That's why they were diverted to Victoria in the first place.

Victoria doesn't have much spare platform capacity either to terminate. Would the TransPennine sets fit into platforms 1 & 2? If not, then you're slightly stuffed.

Would you not do what was done 2 years ago with them reversing in the main Picc shed (at any platforms)? It's 2 TPH off the route. Victoria to the Airport can be done via the Metrolink.

As I have said, moving all TFW into Victoria would be a bad idea because of the loss of the Airport link. That said, moving the loco hauled services would be fine as they don't serve the Airport anyway and the last thing needed at peak time is a slow, long dwell time set clogging up the corridor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you not do what was done 2 years ago with them reversing in the main Picc shed (at any platforms)? It's 2 TPH off the route. Victoria to the Airport can be done via the Metrolink.

As I have said, moving all TFW into Victoria would be a bad idea because of the loss of the Airport link. That said, moving the loco hauled services would be fine as they don't serve the Airport anyway and the last thing needed at peak time is a slow, long dwell time set clogging up the corridor.

So who's going to lose their Airport link? Somebody's going to have to if 3tph need removing from the corridor.

I'd go with this one purely as "last in first out".

 

[markymark2000]

So who's going to lose their Airport link? Somebody's going to have to if 3tph need removing from the corridor.

I'd go with this one purely as "last in first out".

North Wales Coast would lose their Airport link. The loco hauled set doesn't serve the airport though so no links would be lost.

First in, first out would mean Liverpool - Crewe, Southport - Alderley Edge and TPE Ordsal Chord services.

The airport extension is new but it probably benefits the corridor more than it hinders it because it means the service isn't crossing into Mayfield loop to terminate and it is 1 less train terminating at Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The airport extension is new but it probably benefits the corridor more than it hinders it because it means the service isn't crossing into Mayfield loop to terminate and it is 1 less train terminating at Piccadilly.

That is not an issue with this proposal as it'd move to Vic.

 

[Eccles1983]

North Wales in its entirety would lose its airport link.

As would Helsby, Runcorn, Frodsham, Chester as well as a good interchange at Bank Quay.

Now whilst TfN might not care about North Wales losing out - it would have to answer to the MP's and councils of Halton, Chester and Cheshire West and Warrington.

Nearly a million people (potential customers for the tail that wags the dog in the airport) without a link to it.

Burnham is a weak leader, and will try and bodge it good. That's his forte.

 

[Esker-pades]

Would you not do what was done 2 years ago with them reversing in the main Picc shed (at any platforms)? It's 2 TPH off the route. Victoria to the Airport can be done via the Metrolink.

As I have said, moving all TFW into Victoria would be a bad idea because of the loss of the Airport link. That said, moving the loco hauled services would be fine as they don't serve the Airport anyway and the last thing needed at peak time is a slow, long dwell time set clogging up the corridor.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in my post. Could you elaborate?

 

[jfollows]

Would you not do what was done 2 years ago with them reversing in the main Picc shed (at any platforms)?

Didn't they used to reverse in Mayfield loop? Except one morning train which reversed (and may still do so) in platform 13?

 

[geoffk]

It wouldn't. Though a same-platform connection would be possible at Newton-le-Willows, or over the bridge at Victoria (it would only be locations Runcorn East and beyond that would lose the direct link).

Of course, if the Liverpool - MIA - Crewe service gets split into a Liverpool - Vic and a Picc - Crewe, the Newton connection is gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, if the Liverpool - MIA - Crewe service gets split into a Liverpool - Vic and a Picc - Crewe, the Newton connection is gone.

Though you can still change at Vic for an Ordsall Chord service.

 

[MetroCar4058]

A key question here is who should have access to Manchester Piccadilly. Personally I believe commuter and local services have a much better claim on P13/14 than connecting here there and everywhere to Manchester Airport. Both Pic and Vic have good connections to the Airport and direct links are not sustainable. For me, Southport and TfW services should go to Victoria and Alderley Edge into the main shed at Pic. TPE Redcar/Newcastle to airport could also go, but this then creates an issue of connectivity from Vic to the airport and where do they go as P1/2 aren't useable and Northern hog the turn back siding.

 

[markymark2000]

That is not an issue with this proposal as it'd move to Vic.

Victoria has less TPH and more platforms (for this service) than Picc so it can should be easier to accommodate.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in my post. Could you elaborate?

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought the last bit was about TPE running into 1 and 2 at Picc.


I think we are all forgetting that the main issue here isn't TFW. It's Northerns TSR which meant services which originally terminated at VIC and PIC got linked through the castlefields corridor. The second issue then is the Orsdall Curve services which got put in to 'free up paths' south of Piccadilly which then never materialised. By all means, keep trying to shaft TFW passengers but they aren't the main issue. TPE and Northern are.

 

[krus_aragon]

As I have said, moving all TFW into Victoria would be a bad idea because of the loss of the Airport link. That said, moving the loco hauled services would be fine as they don't serve the Airport anyway and the last thing needed at peak time is a slow, long dwell time set clogging up the corridor.

The loco-hauled services may not exist by the time this happens: surely the MkIV rakes should be cleared for the Marches (and staff trained up) by December, at which point the Manchester loco-hauled will revert to DMU operation.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Correct, platform 6 is the only one with access to both the Chester and Manchester lines at Crewe. What's an even bigger problem is the fact you'd need find another two windows to cross the WCML on the flat every hour. Either reason alone would probably be a deal breaker, but the two together.....

As for the original post, it's been rumoured for years but nothing has officially been confirmed. And with three seperate depots signing the route there's not a hope you're going to get all the traincrew trained up on Victoria by May. It may not be a very long route, but you're talking about nearly a hundred drivers and a similar amount of guards.

Maybe I've misunderstood, but I'm sure I've been on a diverted late night Arriva Trains Wales service that used Platform 10 at Crewe, (Manchester-Crewe-Chester).

 

[craigybagel]

Maybe I've misunderstood, but I'm sure I've been on a diverted late night Arriva Trains Wales service that used Platform 10 at Crewe, (Manchester-Crewe-Chester).

You may well have been, that routing has been done in the past for those services - however, it only works if the train has diverted via Warrington and the WCML. There is no access to the Wilmslow line (and thus Manchester Airport) from platform 10.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You'd then have the problem of what to do with the Manchester Airport-bound services once they reached Stalybridge.

Currently, those services don't have paths through Ashburys onto Manchester Piccadilly. There will also be an issue with platform capacity at Piccadilly for those services to reverse or terminate. They have to cross all the other lines at the Piccadilly throat to get to/from the Airport. Sorting out paths through these places, and (crucially) paths that map on to one another, is difficult. That's why they were diverted to Victoria in the first place.

Victoria doesn't have much spare platform capacity either to terminate. Would the TransPennine sets fit into platforms 1 & 2? If not, then you're slightly stuffed.

Back in the 80s the TPE trains used to run from Newcastle to north wales, Also just before they switched over to the Castlefield Line - There used to be an Stalybridge to Llandudno service in the early 90s.

It's a shame the mixed-TOC train approach (eg. ScotRail+Northern Glasgow-Carlisle-Newcastle) isn't more-widely used. If you could apply that here, it might be possible to kill two birds with one stone. Could either of the TPE Manchester Airport - Victoria - Leeds - Redcar/Newcastle services map onto TfW's Chester-Manchester paths? If so, you could replace Llandudno-Man-air and Man-air-(Redcar/Newscastle) with a through Llandudno-Redcar/Newcastle service via Manchester Victoria. This would:

• remove 2tph from the Castlefield corridor
• remove 2tph from the Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport route (which I think the Modern Railways article was saying is also too congested)
• only remove 1tph from the Ordsall Chord (so that it is still used and doesn't become abandoned infrustructure), with 1 TPE per hour retained between Newcastle OR Redcar and Manchester Airport
  
• avoid the need to terminate trains in Manchester Victoria (thus avoiding concerns of limited platform/turnback capacity)

Of course it does run the risk of importing delays from the ECML to north Wales and vice versa, but I think it would be a net improvement once you consider that it frees up two paths in the delay amplifier that is the Castlefield corridor.

Assuming you can match the TfW path to a TPE at Manchester Victoria, the only problem is that it takes away the one TfW route on which the class 197s would not be a complete disaster (other than Crewe-Chester, Crewe-Shrewsbury and Conwy Valley which is at most 5 diagrams (if they increase frequency on two of those routes), more likely 3).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming you can match the TfW path to a TPE at Manchester Victoria, the only problem is that it takes away the one TfW route on which the class 197s would not be a complete disaster (other than Crewe-Chester, Crewe-Shrewsbury and Conwy Valley which is at most 5 diagrams (if they increase frequency on two of those routes), more likely 3).

Do I detect just a hint of door-position prejudice here?

But yes, this does seem a reasonable idea in principle, and there have been through North Wales-TPE services before. I doubt it'll happen, though, because of the differing jurisdictions.