Fare dodging GA

[Fhw572]

Hi everyone,
So many posts like this but mine seems a little different.
This morning was caught by plain clothed revenue inspectors while trying to buy a ticket (via trainline) from Mark Tey to Liverpool Street (Greater Anglia) during my morning commute. Normally I buy at station but I was running so late!!

The revenue inspector told me to report to the office in Liverpool Street where I was told off and offered to either pay a fine (£54.80 or they would take it to transport police. They went onto explain that it’s a criminal offence and I could be prosecuted.

I payed the fine, apologised and they took my contact details. It was all dealt with very professionally and admitted I was in the wrong.

Does anyone know if I am likely to be prosecuted or will the fine be sufficient?

Thanks guys!

 

[bb21]

You mean £54.80? That is the price of the Penalty Fare (twice the single fare).

If you paid that, then that is the end of the matter on this occasion.

 

[Fhw572]

You mean £54.80? That is the price of the Penalty Fare (twice the single fare).

If you paid that, then that is the end of the matter on this occasion.

Yes! Sorry. That amount is correct. So they took my details in case it happens again?

 

[Polarbear]

Yes! Sorry. That amount is correct. So they took my details in case it happens again?

.

It sounds like you have been charged twice the full fare single, which is a penalty fare. It’s not a “fine” as such, as they can only be imposed by courts.

As BB21 says, that’s the end of the matter on this occasion, but as you have had your details taken, you may not be offered a penalty fare if you were to be in a similar position at some point in the future.

 

[Fhw572]

.

It sounds like you have been charged twice the full fare single, which is a penalty fare. It’s not a “fine” as such, as they can only be imposed by courts.

As BB21 says, that’s the end of the matter on this occasion, but as you have had your details taken, you may not be offered a penalty fare if you were to be in a similar position at some point in the future.

OK! Thank you for taking the time to reply. No I understand. Won’t be happening again for sure. So if I was to be prosecuted, would they tell me?

 

[SuspectUsual]

OK! Thank you for taking the time to reply. No I understand. Won’t be happening again for sure. So if I was to be prosecuted, would they tell me?

If you’ve been issued a penalty fare and paid it, you can’t be prosecuted

 

[Polarbear]

OK! Thank you for taking the time to reply. No I understand. Won’t be happening again for sure. So if I was to be prosecuted, would they tell me?

You’re welcome. As regards your question, yes they would notify you, but on this occasion, you shouldn’t hear anything further.

 

[Fhw572]

You’re welcome. As regards your question, yes they would notify you, but on this occasion, you shouldn’t hear anything further.

What a relief! Defo won’t be doing this again.

 

[gray1404]

If you paid a Penalty Fare then you must be given a receipt for it. Do you still have this? If so, it will say exactly what was issued. If such a receipt wasn't issued then the PF is void.

Furthermore, if an Authorised Collector takes the decision to offer the passenger the option of a Penalty Fare and the customer accepts this, this must be done in accordance with the Penalty Fare Regulations. The Authorised Collector cannot add additional conditions. Therefore, you should not have been told that you either had the pay the Penalty Fare there any then or be reported to the Police. A customer is not obliged to pay the Penalty Fare at the time and has 21 days to do so.

Can you please confirm if you were issued with a receipt and if you were given the option to pay within 21 days if you wanted. Were you also told about your right to appeal? Depending on your answers it may be that you have the right to appeal.

Now that you have paid the Penalty Fare though, the train company is now statute barred from commencing any further criminal proceedings.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Depending on your answers it may be that you have the right to appeal.

Given that the OP tells us that they were trying to buy a ticket while on the train, and so logically will not have had a ticket when they boarded the train, what grounds of appeal would you suggest the OP should pursue if they do have a right to appeal?

 

[gray1404]

I see you are taking the view of "OP admits they didn't follow the rules and therefore deserves the PF regardless." However, if the Penalty Fare Regulations were not complied with by the train company (more information needed) then that could give grounds for appeal. I know many might not like this as the customer "gets away with it" but the regulations should be followed when PF's are issued.

 

[WesternLancer]

What a relief! Defo won’t be doing this again.

If you can, make sure you keep (possibly for quite some time) any paperwork issued to you during this incident either on train or later. You may also wish to cut and paste and save / print etc a copy of this thread in case you ever need the content for info - inc your own summary of what happened when and why at any future date - which could of course be some years in future potentially.

Obv the risk in future is that they can say you 'often do this' and thus opt for prosecution or out of court settlement which is bound to cost you more and take more hassle to sort out, even if you are honestly doing this for reasons of time pressure etc and have no intention of not paying.

In short the offence is boarding the train without having bought ticket before hand so even if the ticket is going through your phone purchase as you step on at the platform you are still at risk. No doubt all that was explained to you earlier tho.

 

[Fhw572]

If you paid a Penalty Fare then you must be given a receipt for it. Do you still have this? If so, it will say exactly what was issued. If such a receipt wasn't issued then the PF is void.

Furthermore, if an Authorised Collector takes the decision to offer the passenger the option of a Penalty Fare and the customer accepts this, this must be done in accordance with the Penalty Fare Regulations. The Authorised Collector cannot add additional conditions. Therefore, you should not have been told that you either had the pay the Penalty Fare there any then or be reported to the Police. A customer is not obliged to pay the Penalty Fare at the time and has 21 days to do so.

Can you please confirm if you were issued with a receipt and if you were given the option to pay within 21 days if you wanted. Were you also told about your right to appeal? Depending on your answers it may be that you have the right to appeal.

Now that you have paid the Penalty Fare though, the train company is now statute barred from commencing any further criminal proceedings.

Hi,
They informed me I must pay on the day or risk criminal prosecution. I have a receipt for the transaction. They told me I could appeal.

 

[Fhw572]

If you can, make sure you keep (possibly for quite some time) any paperwork issued to you during this incident either on train or later. You may also wish to cut and paste and save / print etc a copy of this thread in case you ever need the content for info - inc your own summary of what happened when and why at any future date - which could of course be some years in future potentially.

Obv the risk in future is that they can say you 'often do this' and thus opt for prosecution or out of court settlement which is bound to cost you more and take more hassle to sort out, even if you are honestly doing this for reasons of time pressure etc and have no intention of not paying.

In short the offence is boarding the train without having bought ticket before hand so even if the ticket is going through your phone purchase as you step on at the platform you are still at risk. No doubt all that was explained to you earlier tho.

Yes indeed. I was happy to pay the penalty fare as was worried about it being taken further. I will not repeat this. So this is solved unless I wish to take it further?

 

[gray1404]

So they were only prepared to offer a penalty fare if it was paid in full there and then. Not acceptable.

 

[some bloke]

While we might hope the company will stick to what the inspector said, prosecutions are only barred where the appeal service has made a decision (or a time limit is reached) - see Penalty Fares Regulation 11:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

 

[furlong]

prosecutions are only barred where the appeal service has made a decision (or a time limit is reached)

That is not exclusive!

 

[some bloke]

That is not exclusive!

I'm sorry, I don't follow. I was responding to several posts which say it's barred once the person has paid.

 

[furlong]

I'm objecting to the word "only" which I highlighted in bold. There can be other circumstances too.

 

[some bloke]

I'm objecting to the word "only" which I highlighted in bold. There can be other circumstances too.

Yes, but what circumstances are likely to be relevant here?

 

[furlong]

Quite - nothing mentioned in the thread provides a reason to withdraw the PF i.e. no new evidence not known to the company at the time it settled the matter by imposing a PF.

(If what someone is thinking is - "We've realised we'll probably lose this appeal, so let's prosecute instead" - I'd anticipate that a court would take an extremely dim view of any attempt to undermine the fairness of the process like that.)

 

[gray1404]

Would the OP have grounds to appeal on the basis they were told that they could only be charged a PF if it was paid there and then?

 

[furlong]

Well I think the relevant questions would be what the paperwork provided at the time said about payment and whether the paperwork was provided, with an opportunity to read it, before payment was taken. A PF is not something you "buy" like a ticket - you don't hand your money over first then get given some paper - nor is it a matter of negotiation. It is a penalty a company may impose on someone in specified circumstances as an alternative to a prosecution. Once the penalty has been imposed, then there is a liability to pay it according to the rules and an option to appeal against it. So it's the opposite sequence to buying a ticket. A passenger should always be given the paperwork, and allowed sufficient time to read it, BEFORE making a final decision as to whether or not to pay or part-pay immediately if the facility to issue a receipt immediately is available, otherwise it would undermine 5(2) which puts everything important in writing to make sure the passenger has an opportunity to understand the situation independently of what the collector might have said or forgotten to say:

5(1) ...a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.
(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged
...
(i) an explanation of how the penalty fare may be paid;
(j) a statement that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare.
...
(3) Where a person who is charged a penalty fare under paragraph (1) pays the penalty fare, or part of it, that person must immediately be issued with written confirmation that the penalty fare in question has been paid, or paid in part, as the case may be.

(Note how 'charging' and 'paying' are separate events, and a requirement to explain how to pay makes no sense if it is only provided after that payment has been taken: charging necessarily precedes payment, with this paperwork required in between.)

 

[Fhw572]

Well I think the relevant questions would be what the paperwork provided at the time said about payment and whether the paperwork was provided, with an opportunity to read it, before payment was taken. A PF is not something you "buy" like a ticket - you don't hand your money over first then get given some paper - nor is it a matter of negotiation. It is a penalty a company may impose on someone in specified circumstances as an alternative to a prosecution. Once the penalty has been imposed, then there is a liability to pay it according to the rules and an option to appeal against it. So it's the opposite sequence to buying a ticket. A passenger should always be given the paperwork, and allowed sufficient time to read it, BEFORE making a final decision as to whether or not to pay or part-pay immediately if the facility to issue a receipt immediately is available, otherwise it would undermine 5(2) which puts everything important in writing to make sure the passenger has an opportunity to understand the situation independently of what the collector might have said or forgotten to say:



(Note how 'charging' and 'paying' are separate events, and a requirement to explain how to pay makes no sense if it is only provided after that payment has been taken: charging necessarily precedes payment, with this paperwork required in between.)

Hi, thank you for your response.
So I was provided with a paper ticket and receipt. The inspector told me that the trainline ticket I had purchased could be refunded too. Surely suggesting that I had brought a ticket and paid a penalty fine.

Surely it’s unlikely they would prosecute since I have co operated full and already settled outstanding payments.

if they were to prosecute it wouldn’t stand up?

 

[Fhw572]

While we might hope the company will stick to what the inspector said, prosecutions are only barred where the appeal service has made a decision (or a time limit is reached) - see Penalty Fares Regulation 11:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

But the fact the PF was offered suggests that it’s unlikely to be taken further.

From what I have read people who have been prosecuted are not given the chance to pay a PF as the prosecution is claiming back the fare

 

[some bloke]

the fact the PF was offered suggests that it’s unlikely to be taken further.

Yes - I should have added:

nothing mentioned in the thread provides a reason to withdraw the PF

 

[bb21]

if they were to prosecute it wouldn’t stand up?

They won't prosecute. As I said this is the end of the matter and you can rest at ease.

I do apologise. On this forum we have a habit of taking threads off topic, where there is absolutely no need, and only serves to confuse people like you who are only seeking simple help and assurances.