For example a Edinburgh to London ticket.
Soon to be changing from Any Permitted to via York. A person who still has a Any Permitted ticket would still be valid to travel via Carlisle for example.
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Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted
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Soon to be changing from Any Permitted to via York. A person who still has a Any Permitted ticket would still be valid to travel via Carlisle for example.
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Haywain
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That’s not quite the same, as the Any Permitted routing will not require a specific itinerary.
Is there a source for this or is it just speculation?
Given this post:
... I would suggest it is not merely speculation. If it's not true, I will be surprised.
Trusted sources say it is true.
Interesting. This is probably worth splitting out as a new thread but if they're going to do this then it should only apply to the Super Off Peak Single and the Anytime Single (the half price ones).
They should then re-introduce Any Permitted Super Off Peak Returns and Anytime Returns otherwise passengers wouldn't be able to travel via the WCML between Edinburgh and London.
This would of course make the fares more complicated all because Avanti have no doubt kicked off.
An example of the rail industry saying they're going to simplify things but end up making it more complicated....
Kite159
Veteran Member
Why do I picture First being behind that decision on grounds that it undercuts the Glasgow - London fare, and I suspect they get a small percentage for those fares under ORCATS.
Greedy First
It will be interesting to see how extensive the changes are. I imagine that some interesting ways of getting round this are already being thought up.
If true, what ticket will be sold to someone rocking up at Edinburgh and wanting to travel on a direct train from there to Euston via the WCML ?
thedbdiboy
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Nothing to do with First. The impetus for this is because LNER is an OLR operated TOC under the control of the DfT. There are still those that think that fares reform is some sort of evil plot by private sector TOCs, yet it is at those operations moving back under direct DfT control where 'protected' things are most likely to change, as in BR days where rules and validities were amended all the time (e.g. the 1993 split of the London - Exeter 'Any Reasonable' route into 'route Taunton' and 'route Honiton'). Privatisation created a bizarre suspension of any sort of fundamental evolution of the fares structure for 25 years, but as the franchising system runs out of steam it will be the government itself that faces up to the need for change.
London - Edinburgh is currently 'Any Permitted'.
It's supposedly changing to 'via York'.
Knowing the cack handed way the railway does things they'll 'forget' that an 'Any Permitted' or 'via Carlisle' ticket is needed as well, leaving a whole load of direct trains between London and Edinburgh for which it is not possible to purchase a valid ticket.
Once the railway realises and fixes it we'll have London - Edinburgh single tickets via York costing £75.75 and via Carlisle costing £150.50.
The press will have a field day with Avanti charging twice the price of LNER.
You couldn't make it up.
It's supposedly changing to 'via York'.
Knowing the cack handed way the railway does things they'll 'forget' that an 'Any Permitted' or 'via Carlisle' ticket is needed as well, leaving a whole load of direct trains between London and Edinburgh for which it is not possible to purchase a valid ticket.
Once the railway realises and fixes it we'll have London - Edinburgh single tickets via York costing £75.75 and via Carlisle costing £150.50.
The press will have a field day with Avanti charging twice the price of LNER.
You couldn't make it up.
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If the single is routed York, I'm curious to know what they will charge a customer at London Euston on, say, 15th March who wants a single to Edinburgh for the 1326, from which a connection from Preston has them in Edinburgh at 1820.
If the ticket office told the customer to go to Kings Cross, they would have no direct departure until 1410, delaying them by almost a full hour! 10 minutes of this could be gained back by taking the 1350 Grand Central and changing trains at York, but I would advise against that very much without a reservation, on a 5 car train.
I assume Avanti have requested this as they felt that they were losing out with passengers using Edinburgh - London tickets priced by LNER to travel from Glasgow and stations on the WCML into Euston.
Avanti will have to introduce 'Any Permitted' or 'via Carlisle' fares between London and Edinburgh as there are direct Avanti trains between Euston and Edinburgh. Single tickets will presumably be twice the price of LNER's single priced tickets.
It won't look good when passengers realise it costs twice as much to travel from Edinburgh to London with Avanti compared to LNER.
This could be another 'seat selector' moment from Avanti....
Avanti will have to introduce 'Any Permitted' or 'via Carlisle' fares between London and Edinburgh as there are direct Avanti trains between Euston and Edinburgh. Single tickets will presumably be twice the price of LNER's single priced tickets.
It won't look good when passengers realise it costs twice as much to travel from Edinburgh to London with Avanti compared to LNER.
This could be another 'seat selector' moment from Avanti....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But hang on a minute, isn't the Edinburgh Super Off Peak Single just a trial fare? It's only that that's causing the issue. So why not make that only routed via York, and add an Any Permitted at the old "10p less than the return" rate until the outcome of that trial is decided?
If they're doing it with all of the fares, that is yet another affront to flexibility.
I looked at the data and it looks like there will be no new fare routed ant permitted.
The re routed fares come into force on 2nd march.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So no through fare from Edinburgh to Euston on the direct Avanti services?
Ridiculous. That said, do Avanti welcome the opportunity to go Advance only on those?
Ridiculous. That said, do Avanti welcome the opportunity to go Advance only on those?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've just Tweeted Avanti to see what their response is on no walk-up fares for their services from March. I bet this is a classic railway screw-up and "route Carlisle" fares will be along in due course, I guess at a similar level to their Glasgow fares.
Mind you, SWR still have those Waterloo-Weymouth via Salisbury trains on which there is no valid through fare...
Mind you, SWR still have those Waterloo-Weymouth via Salisbury trains on which there is no valid through fare...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And they've replied:
We are aware of this and things like this will be looked into internally, Neil ^MW
That once again has a rather arrogant and dismissive undertone which carries the message "none of your business" unnecessarily. Have First/TI actually told them to speak to people like that? I don't think I've seen a single Tweet from them that had an appropriate tone.
I'd want a Tweeter working for me to respond "Thanks for this, we are already aware and are working on a solution which will be in place by the time this change takes effect." Same message, less arrogance and rudeness.
We are aware of this and things like this will be looked into internally, Neil ^MW
That once again has a rather arrogant and dismissive undertone which carries the message "none of your business" unnecessarily. Have First/TI actually told them to speak to people like that? I don't think I've seen a single Tweet from them that had an appropriate tone.
I'd want a Tweeter working for me to respond "Thanks for this, we are already aware and are working on a solution which will be in place by the time this change takes effect." Same message, less arrogance and rudeness.
Apart from breaking their journey en route or possibly meeting someone en route why would anyone want to do a journey that would take an hour more unless they were on a stupidly cheap advance? Which would affect this journey anyway?
Kite159
Veteran Member
I would suspect that will be the case, would still allow anybody from Edinburgh to travel to London via the West Coast if they prefer a Pendo over an Azuma due to not liking the seats.
Although in that case that passenger might decide to travel by plane.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would always recommend a tourist with time on their hands travel via the West Coast - the scenery is far better and its variety tells the story of pretty much the whole UK - urban to rural, mountainous to flat.
The loss of flexibility on walk-ups will be felt more in case of disruption, though.
PG
Established Member
In the event that I board at Edinburgh without a ticket what ticket will the guard sell me during the journey assuming I correctly state my origin and destination?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Of course this is a quirk of making this change via fare routeings rather than the Routeing Guide, which they almost seem to have stopped fiddling with for a bit. If it was done in the latter, the tickets would remain valid on direct trains (only) via the West Coast.
A Challenge
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If they were to fiddle with the routing guide they could remove Edinburgh - Glasgow - Carlisle - London without removing Edinburgh - Carlisle - London.
Surely even a fare route of NOT VIA GLASGOW would be more appropriate, unless there is a hidden motivation behind this fare being changed?
PG
Established Member
Are changes to fare routeings subject to the same approval by DfT as changes to permitted routes?
Not that DfT seem to bother approving routeing guide changes but thats another story...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There is of course an irony that if Avanti introduces route Carlisle fares (which I'm sure they will), one of the two will, depending on price, become the de-facto Any Permitted. Though you might as well buy the cheaper one if it's relevant and excess if needed.
As they would be the setter I don't think they could do route Avanti West Coast Only which wouldn't allow that.
As they would be the setter I don't think they could do route Avanti West Coast Only which wouldn't allow that.
Are you sure it wasn't Avanti who requested this change?
I suspect Avanti told DfT to tell LNER to do it.
I can't see why LNER would add these restrictions otherwise?
Kite159
Veteran Member
"Via Carlisle" would still allow use of the 2-hourly TPE Edinburgh - Manchester Airport services. Changing at Carlisle - Preston for a fast from Glasgow [or Blackpool] (or even staying on to Manchester Piccadilly to change to a Manchester - Euston service], where if it was a "Avanti WC only" it would exclude that option.
Adjusting the routeing guide so Edinburgh - London wasn't valid via Motherwell/Glasgow would have been better.
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