Timetables

[MidnightFlyer]

Which TOC produce the best (ie. by clarity/convenience/content) timetables, and who make the worst?

 

[leewoods60019]

In my opinion Transpennine offer the best timetable from my home station Huddersfield with services every 15 mins to various places. Northern rail have the crappest timetable ever! it takes like 1 hour from huddersfield to leeds and the service is hourly and transpennine takes 25 mins to leeds and goes there every 15 mins! erm i don't tend to travel on other operators often only now and then.

 

[ukrob]

I think the question was about printed timetables.

 

[leewoods60019]

oops :P lol

 

[thefab444]

Indeed, you can't really judge the TOCs on the actual content of the timetables as it is mostly specified by the DfT.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed, you can't really judge the TOCs on the actual content of the timetables as it is mostly specified by the DfT.

By content I meant design etc, that the TOC chooses.

Like ATW - you cant read the timetables!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the question was about printed timetables.

Yes, it was !

 

[thefab444]

In that case, they're all much of a muchness, however, any TOC that publishes a "complete guide" gets a thumbs up, i.e. FGW and SWT, even if they do charge for it!

Some of the other more complex TOCs should follow that example; Southern, Southeastern and Northern in particular.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In that case, they're all much of a muchness, however, any TOC that publishes a "complete guide" gets a thumbs up, i.e. FGW and SWT, even if they do charge for it!

Some of the other more complex TOCs should follow that example; Southern, Southeastern and Northern in particular.

I agree with both things you say... FGW's complete Timetable is brilliant -it has headcodes and everything in it. SWT's is good too. Wish SE, SN and Northern would follow suit, maybe Scotrail too. Not sure if FGW are making one this period, theres nothing on their website about it...

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree with both things you say... FGW's complete Timetable is brilliant -it has headcodes and everything in it. SWT's is good too. Wish SE, SN and Northern would follow suit, maybe Scotrail too. Not sure if FGW are making one this period, theres nothing on their website about it...

To be fair Scotrail do, they certainly show the East Coast services to Inverness and Aberdeen.

That is one thing I have against East Coast, XC and Virgin to some extent. You can't get a pocket timetable that shows all the services between England and Scotland. Virgin are the same but I don't know if TPE produce a timetable showing all services on WCML between Preston and Scotland.

Pretending operators don't exist isn't good!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

To be fair Scotrail do, they certainly show the East Coast services to Inverness and Aberdeen.

That is one thing I have against East Coast, XC and Virgin to some extent. You can't get a pocket timetable that shows all the services between England and Scotland. Virgin are the same but I don't know if TPE produce a timetable showing all services on WCML between Preston and Scotland.

Pretending operators don't exist isn't good!

Good point re: Scotrail but I meant one kind of massive combined timetable.

TPE timetable 11 shows all services from Manc/Preston-Carlisle/Scotland, but it would be useful to have something to show everything.

I take it VT, EC & XC don't want to advertise other services so people think that travelling with that comnpany is the only way to get there.

 

[tbtc]

Pretending operators don't exist isn't good!

Agreed, however there are times when you need to limit things. For example, should the East Coast timetable show all First Capital Connect/ Hull Trains/ Grand Central/ Cross Country/ Transpennine/ Northern/ Scotrail services that run on the ECML?

Grand Central don't show all the East Coast services from London to York in their leaflets (or all Transpennine services from York to Teesside, or all Northern services from Teesside to Sunderland), so why should the other operators have to promote Grand Central services in the same way? (not having a dig at Grand Central here, just using one example where you may criticise a "big" operator but not the "small" operator)

I don't really see the point in Northern publishing a comprehensive book, since someone wanting times from Manchester to Wigan won't generally be too bothered about those from Whitby to Middlesbrough (but might want to know about Virgin services from Wigan to Preston, for example). Most people just want the times for *their* route - not a telephone book sized document.

What would be more useful would be if we had simple guides for big cities (regardless of operator), so that you had a comprehensive book/ booklet that showed *everything* in that local region (regardless of TOC). Metro do a good one in West Yorkshire. SYPTE do a resonable one in South Yorkshire, but other regions don't.

One thing sadly missing in a lot of timetables is a guide to what has changed. You pick up one saying "May 2010 - December 2010" that is forty pages long, but gives no indication of what is different to the previous version. People need a simple guide to what has changed in each leaflet, even if its only to show that its a reprint (or that the only change is that the first train on a Sunday morning now runs two minutes later)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When they started, WSMR did an excellent combined timetable/travel guide, which was culled to save money, but it was one of the best pieces of rail literature I have ever seen...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't really see the point in Northern publishing a comprehensive book, since someone wanting times from Manchester to Wigan won't generally be too bothered about those from Whitby to Middlesbrough (but might want to know about Virgin services from Wigan to Preston, for example). Most people just want the times for *their* route - not a telephone book sized document.

One thing sadly missing in a lot of timetables is a guide to what has changed. You pick up one saying "May 2010 - December 2010" that is forty pages long, but gives no indication of what is different to the previous version. People need a simple guide to what has changed in each leaflet, even if its only to show that its a reprint (or that the only change is that the first train on a Sunday morning now runs two minutes later)

Yes but they would be good for people on a rail holiday, instead of poicking up 33 seperate Northern timetables.

Some timetables, such as London Midland and WYM do list canges in the timetables introduction, but most of the time you either have to read it in rail magazines, look at stations, look online, or guess and hope that nothing has changed.

 

[tbtc]

Yes but they would be good for people on a rail holiday, instead of poicking up 33 seperate Northern timetables

There's no need for something showing all thirty-something Northern leaflets, but there may be a purpose to a timetable showing *all* trains in Northumbria/ Tyneside/ Wearside/ County Durham/ Teesside, as a comprehensive booklet showing everything in the north east of England. Include a few long distance bus/ coach services too, plus the ferries/ Metro. Sorted

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There's no need for something showing all thirty-something Northern leaflets, but there may be a purpose to a timetable showing *all* trains in Northumbria/ Tyneside/ Wearside/ County Durham/ Teesside, as a comprehensive booklet showing everything in the north east of England. Include a few long distance bus/ coach services too, plus the ferries/ Metro. Sorted

Fair enough, probably good to do the same for Gtr Manc, and Lancs/Cheshire.

Ones for WY and SY are covered well by their respective PTEs, and Merseyside is near enough clockface.

 

[Failed Unit]

I take it VT, EC & XC don't want to advertise other services so people think that travelling with that comnpany is the only way to get there.

You never know, as it can be counter productive. Someone may see a large gap in the East Coast timetable and decide to drive not know about the XC services. That could cost them some money as even if they used AP's that could be one journey to them.

Even if you look at Newcastle - Leeds the chances of someone not picking up a direct operator if they were booking an AP is low.

To be honest I wonder how many people use use mobile devices now, maybe less that I expect!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You never know, as it can be counter productive. Someone may see a large gap in the East Coast timetable and decide to drive not know about the XC services. That could cost them some money as even if they used AP's that could be one journey to them.

Even if you look at Newcastle - Leeds the chances of someone not picking up a direct operator if they were booking an AP is low.

To be honest I wonder how many people use use mobile devices now, maybe less that I expect!

yep, trouble is though most of the XC and all except PRE-GLC of VT, and parts of EC do have fairly frequent services, apart from like you say where lines split (Sheff-York), so they may not lose as much thought, good point tho. Use mobile devices for what?

 

[tbtc]

Even if you look at Newcastle - Leeds the chances of someone not picking up a direct operator if they were booking an AP is low

Cross Country don't show the hourly Transpennine journeys between the two, Transpennine and don't show the hourly Cross Country journeys between the two. Should either be forced to?

How about if the rule was that the TOC which controlled fares between two stations had the responsibility for showing all (direct) trains between them in their printed leaflets?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Cross Country don't show the hourly Transpennine journeys between the two, Transpennine and don't show the hourly Cross Country journeys between the two. Should either be forced to?

How about if the rule was that the TOC which controlled fares between two stations had the responsibility for showing all (direct) trains between them in their printed leaflets?

Most people probs just put it in NR enquiries website, not bothering with paper/online timetables: but you never know...

 

[Failed Unit]

Agreed, however there are times when you need to limit things. For example, should the East Coast timetable show all First Capital Connect/ Hull Trains/ Grand Central/ Cross Country/ Transpennine/ Northern/ Scotrail services that run on the ECML?

Grand Central don't show all the East Coast services from London to York in their leaflets (or all Transpennine services from York to Teesside, or all Northern services from Teesside to Sunderland), so why should the other operators have to promote Grand Central services in the same way? (not having a dig at Grand Central here, just using one example where you may criticise a "big" operator but not the "small" operator)

It is a hard line to draw, I don't know if it exists or not but as you say you live in Durham and all you want to know is the time for all trains to Newcastle. Who should produce this is a good question, East Coast, Northern, XC, TPE? I may on this one go for East Coast as they manage the station BUT it would be wrong as you say to have it included in the London - Leeds / Scotland timetable. Then going a step further EC may then say why should they pay to have regional timetables. I think FCC include all services between Peterborough and London on thier local timetable. If you go by who manages the station then XC would never produce any timetables and why should EMT produce a Peterborough - Leicester guide?

Speaking of EMT they do regional guides such as Lincolnshire. This includes all operators services, which can get confusing on the Lincoln to Doncaster line when you have Northerns via Sheffield as well on the table! At least it is clear they are running via Sheffeild

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It is a hard line to draw, I don't know if it exists or not but as you say you live in Durham and all you want to know is the time for all trains to Newcastle. Who should produce this is a good question, East Coast, Northern, XC, TPE? I may on this one go for East Coast as they manage the station BUT it would be wrong as you say to have it included in the London - Leeds / Scotland timetable. Then going a step further EC may then say why should they pay to have regional timetables. I think FCC include all services between Peterborough and London on thier local timetable. If you go by who manages the station then XC would never produce any timetables and why should EMT produce a Peterborough - Leicester guide?

Speaking of EMT they do regional guides such as Lincolnshire. This includes all operators services, which can get confusing on the Lincoln to Doncaster line when you have Northerns via Sheffield as well on the table! At least it is clear they are running via Sheffeild

EC produce a mimi timetable that shows all trains between York-Newcastle, and Northern number 3 shows all trains Durham-Newc I think.

FCC PBR-KGX only shows EC trains that dep peterborough and arr KGX before FCC trains.

 

[cuccir]

It is a hard line to draw, I don't know if it exists or not but as you say you live in Durham and all you want to know is the time for all trains to Newcastle. Who should produce this is a good question, East Coast, Northern, XC, TPE? I may on this one go for East Coast as they manage the station BUT it would be wrong as you say to have it included in the London - Leeds / Scotland timetable.

EC do indeed publish an excellent range of minitimetables. I have one in my wallet covering all trains Newcastle-Durham-Darlington-York, fits in perfectly. There are also other flavours available - I remember noticing ones for Newcastle-York-Peterborough-London, I'm sure there was one involving Doncaster as well... anyway, these have all services in, by all operators, on these routes.

 

[Failed Unit]

EC do indeed publish an excellent range of minitimetables. I have one in my wallet covering all trains Newcastle-Durham-Darlington-York, fits in perfectly. There are also other flavours available - I remember noticing ones for Newcastle-York-Peterborough-London, I'm sure there was one involving Doncaster as well... anyway, these have all services in, by all operators, on these routes.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

EC do indeed publish an excellent range of minitimetables. I have one in my wallet covering all trains Newcastle-Durham-Darlington-York, fits in perfectly. There are also other flavours available - I remember noticing ones for Newcastle-York-Peterborough-London, I'm sure there was one involving Doncaster as well... anyway, these have all services in, by all operators, on these routes.

Yeah theres about 20 of them (well at KGX travel centre at least. They aslo show connections from ECML stations/services to towns like huddersfield and grimsby, which is good beatrly in mind they doint actually serve them

 

[Sceptre]

Of the TOCs I've used, Transpennine Express are my favourite. I like WYPTE's timetable more than TOC timetables, but trying to suss out the trains to and from Brighouse without the pocket-guide is (understandably) a nightmare.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

NXEA are the worst, you can't read the times on the grey column backgrounds!

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Actually, on Northern's Timetables in Teesside, it states Grand Central Services.
Normal times are listed, then a column with "GC" on top states a Grand Central Service.

 

[Daimler]

FGW's complete timetable, as others have said, is really excellent.

I'd also like to applaud commuter operators that put the lengths of their trains in their timetables - London Midland do this in their 'routecards'.

 

[robert2000]

London midland, crewe to euston, does it need to show the virgin times aswell?

ATW have to show WSMR times because WSMR dont put their timetables across the route of the ATW timetable, for example u cant get WSMR timetables at Chester, but you can get North trans pennine, City line, merseyrail northern line timetables there.

 

[Welshman]

In my opinion Transpennine offer the best timetable from my home station Huddersfield with services every 15 mins to various places. Northern rail have the crappest timetable ever! it takes like 1 hour from huddersfield to leeds and the service is hourly and transpennine takes 25 mins to leeds and goes there every 15 mins! erm i don't tend to travel on other operators often only now and then.

But if you were travelling from Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Batley, Morley or Cottingley, you'd HAVE to use Northern! It is for these stations the stopping service is primarily intended, not through Huddersfield-Leeds passengers.