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Suggestions for service provision on the southern WCML once HS2 phase 1 opens

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PTR 444

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Now that it has been a week since HS2 has been given the go-ahead, I think it would be a good idea to work out what the service provision for the bypassed section of WCML might look like upon completion. Currently there are 9 Avanti trains and 7 LNWR trains per hour. Assuming that HS2 is exclusively for Avanti services, if we take all of those off the WCML, that leaves the LNWR trains and the Southern Croydon - MK service.

I don't want to try and over complicate things at this stage, so most of my suggestions will be done by minimising changing current LNWR service patterns as much as possible. One thing that does need sorting out though is the scenario where routes only call at a station in one direction, as is the case with Tring, Cheddington and the local stations between Coventry and Birmingham. If we make all trains stop at these stations in both directions, that gives us 4tph to Euston from Tring, 2tph from Cheddington, Lea Hall and Stetchford, and 3tph from Canley and Berkswell. That's already some improvement over the existing service.

The Trent Valley line could do with more stopping trains per hour, therefore I would consider an additional hourly service between Euston and Stafford, calling at Watford Junction, Bletchley, MK Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, then all shacks to Stafford. This would also allow the existing Euston - Crewe service to be sped up by skipping Watford Jcn, Atherstone and Polesworth, while also giving Bletchley an additional tph which is important bearing in mind that station will become a major interchange once EWR opens.

Elsewhere on the regional network, I would extend the Euston - MK terminator to Birmingham as a limited stop service, calling only at Wolverton, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International and New Street. This would also be a good opportunity to double the frequency of the Southern service to East Croydon, although paths could be limited beyond Clapham Junction.

Finally, even with HS2 taking intercity traffic, it would still make sense to have some Pendolinos on the route to maintain fast links with cities like Coventry, Chester, Stoke etc. 2 of the current Birminghams (1 stopping at WFJ and 1 stopping at MKC) could be retained, as could the latter's extension to Glasgow. The Chester service would probably have to stay on the WCML anyway as it uses unelectrified stock, so this would become the fastest train (as in stopping at the least stations) on the classic line. There could then be provision for new services to Liverpool and Manchester, calling at Northampton and the Trent Valley stations along the way.

Oh and last but not least, it would probably make sense from an operational perspective to amalgamate the "classic" Pendolino services into the LNWR franchise, leaving Intercity West Coast (Avanti) exclusively for HS2 services.

Please feel free to leave any suggestions.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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Now that it has been a week since HS2 has been given the go-ahead, I think it would be a good idea to work out what the service provision for the bypassed section of WCML might look like upon completion. Currently there are 9 Avanti trains and 7 LNWR trains per hour. Assuming that HS2 is exclusively for Avanti services, if we take all of those off the WCML, that leaves the LNWR trains and the Southern Croydon - MK service.

I don't want to try and over complicate things at this stage, so most of my suggestions will be done by minimising changing current LNWR service patterns as much as possible. One thing that does need sorting out though is the scenario where routes only call at a station in one direction, as is the case with Tring, Cheddington and the local stations between Coventry and Birmingham. If we make all trains stop at these stations in both directions, that gives us 4tph to Euston from Tring, 2tph from Cheddington, Lea Hall and Stetchford, and 3tph from Canley and Berkswell. That's already some improvement over the existing service.

The Trent Valley line could do with more stopping trains per hour, therefore I would consider an additional hourly service between Euston and Stafford, calling at Watford Junction, Bletchley, MK Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, then all shacks to Stafford. This would also allow the existing Euston - Crewe service to be sped up by skipping Watford Jcn, Atherstone and Polesworth, while also giving Bletchley an additional tph which is important bearing in mind that station will become a major interchange once EWR opens.

Elsewhere on the regional network, I would extend the Euston - MK terminator to Birmingham as a limited stop service, calling only at Wolverton, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International and New Street. This would also be a good opportunity to double the frequency of the Southern service to East Croydon, although paths could be limited beyond Clapham Junction.

Finally, even with HS2 taking intercity traffic, it would still make sense to have some Pendolinos on the route to maintain fast links with cities like Coventry, Chester, Stoke etc. 2 of the current Birminghams (1 stopping at WFJ and 1 stopping at MKC) could be retained, as could the latter's extension to Glasgow. The Chester service would probably have to stay on the WCML anyway as it uses unelectrified stock, so this would become the fastest train (as in stopping at the least stations) on the classic line. There could then be provision for new services to Liverpool and Manchester, calling at Northampton and the Trent Valley stations along the way.

Oh and last but not least, it would probably make sense from an operational perspective to amalgamate the "classic" Pendolino services into the LNWR franchise, leaving Intercity West Coast (Avanti) exclusively for HS2 services.

Please feel free to leave any suggestions.

I like the suggestion of an additional service from Stafford to Euston but I would have this extend to Liverpool so we would have 1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street: Watford Junction, Bletchley, MK Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. We have the additional stops at those stations you suggested. I like the suggestion to extend the MKC service to Birmingham and double Southern service which I would extend the Rugby as well as maintaining the existing LNWR timetable. I would though retain two of the Avanti Birmingham services and have 1 stop at WFJ, 2 stop at MKC and 2 stop at Rugby. Chester service I would then increase the Chester service to Half-hourly and extending one to Holyhead. I would introduce a semi-fast Glasgow-London service which run hourly to service the stations in between not-served by HS2 as well as extending the London-Crewe via Trent Valley stations to Manchester to serve local stations.
 

PTR 444

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I like the suggestion of an additional service from Stafford to Euston but I would have this extend to Liverpool so we would have 1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street: Watford Junction, Bletchley, MK Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. We have the additional stops at those stations you suggested.
If you are extending a local service to Liverpool, it might be worth serving Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge to give them a faster link to London.
I like the suggestion to extend the MKC service to Birmingham and double Southern service which I would extend the Rugby as well as maintaining the existing LNWR timetable.
Would this go via Northampton? And if so, are you proposing it calls at Wolverton and Long Buckby as well?
I would though retain two of the Avanti Birmingham services and have 1 stop at WFJ, 2 stop at MKC and 2 stop at Rugby.
My only concern with stopping at extra stations is that it would lengthen the journey time between Euston and Coventry, which is already in the sorry state of being left out from HS2. If Pendolinos can somehow be sped up however, then i’m all for it.
Chester service I would then increase the Chester service to Half-hourly and extending one to Holyhead.
This would really help strengthen connectivity between London and the Wirral/Deeside area. It could replace the existing Crewe - Chester shuttle operated by TfW.
I would introduce a semi-fast Glasgow-London service which run hourly to service the stations in between not-served by HS2 as well as extending the London-Crewe via Trent Valley stations to Manchester to serve local stations.
Do the Trent Valley towns merit a link to Scotland? Otherwise you could just extend one of the Birminghams similar to what it is now. As for extending the London - Crewe to Manchester, I presume you would route this via Wilmslow, in which case is there enough capacity on that line to do so?
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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If you are extending a local service to Liverpool, it might be worth serving Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge to give them a faster link to London.

Would this go via Northampton? And if so, are you proposing it calls at Wolverton and Long Buckby as well?

My only concern with stopping at extra stations is that it would lengthen the journey time between Euston and Coventry, which is already in the sorry state of being left out from HS2. If Pendolinos can somehow be sped up however, then i’m all for it.

This would really help strengthen connectivity between London and the Wirral/Deeside area. It could replace the existing Crewe - Chester shuttle operated by TfW.

Do the Trent Valley towns merit a link to Scotland? Otherwise you could just extend one of the Birminghams similar to what it is now. As for extending the London - Crewe to Manchester, I presume you would route this via Wilmslow, in which case is there enough capacity on that line to do so?


  1. could do
    Yes
  2. Providing better connectivity post HS2 would be huge benefit to those towns as well as Coventry.
  3. Yeah it could replace the shuttle
  4. You could do that. Yeah it would go via Wilmslow
I would look at enhancing services to Shrewsbury, Walsall, Blackpool and Gobowen post hs2.
 

PTR 444

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I would look at enhancing services to Shrewsbury, Walsall, Blackpool and Gobowen post hs2.

Gobowen doesn’t seem the obvious place at first to terminate an intercity train, but thinking about it, it is a railhead for Oswestry as well as being practically halfway between Shrewsbury and Wrexham. Both these towns have the occasional Avanti service which could be improved once HS2 frees up capacity, therefore you could link up the two routes and have an hourly Euston - New Street - Shrewsbury - Chester - Euston loop service, with another hourly departure serving the opposite direction. This could also replace the existing Birmingham - Holyhead which in turn would free up capacity on the North Wales Line, permitting an increase in frequency for Avanti trains to run at hourly intervals on that line.
 

krus_aragon

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This could also replace the existing Birmingham - Holyhead which in turn would free up capacity on the North Wales Line, permitting an increase in frequency for Avanti trains to run at hourly intervals on that line
Notwithstanding the rest of your suggestion, I don't think it's neccesary to withdraw the Birmingham - Holyhead services to make room for an hourly Avanti service along the coast: the current Avanti service has an hourly slot, it just doesn't use them in every hour.

Additionally, the Holyhead - Birmingham service operates every other hour, alternating with the Holyhead - Cardiff service. Getting rid of the latter would be politically sensitive.
 

PTR 444

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Notwithstanding the rest of your suggestion, I don't think it's neccesary to withdraw the Birmingham - Holyhead services to make room for an hourly Avanti service along the coast: the current Avanti service has an hourly slot, it just doesn't use them in every hour.

Additionally, the Holyhead - Birmingham service operates every other hour, alternating with the Holyhead - Cardiff service. Getting rid of the latter would be politically sensitive.

You wouldn’t need to withdraw the Holyhead - Cardiff service to do so. In fact you could improve both by diverting the Holyhead - Birmingham service via Crewe (which will have more paths available after HS2) and upping it from 0.5tph to 1tph, then allow 1tph to run between Holyhead and Cardiff via Wrexham.

Ultimately i’m envisaging 5tph will run on the NWCL between Chester and Llandudno Junction but does it have the capacity to take that many trains?
 

4-SUB 4732

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  1. could do
    Yes
  2. Providing better connectivity post HS2 would be huge benefit to those towns as well as Coventry.
  3. Yeah it could replace the shuttle
  4. You could do that. Yeah it would go via Wilmslow
I would look at enhancing services to Shrewsbury, Walsall, Blackpool and Gobowen post hs2.

What on earth? Wilmslow?!
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Current:

LNWR:
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Trent Valley
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Birmingham (joined with Walsall service)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Rugeley Trent Valley via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham (joined with Crewe service)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Tring
  • 1tph: London Euston to Milton Keynes Central
Avanti:

  • 1tph: London Euston to Glasgow Central (non-stop to Warrington)
    • 4tpd to Blackpool North
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (non-stop to Stafford)
  • 3tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (1 calling at MKC ,Stoke and Stockport , 1 calling at Stoke Macclesfield and Stockport and the other via Wilmslow)
  • 3tph: London Euston to Birmingham New Street (one extends to Glasgow via Wolverhampon and all major stations to Glasgow or Edinburgh)
    • 2tpd to Shrewsbury
  • 1tph: London Euston to Chester (7tpd to Holyhead)
    • 1tpd to Wrexham General

New Plan Post HS2:


LNWR:
  • 1tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly via Trent Valley and Wilmslow
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Birmingham (joined with Walsall service)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Rugeley Trent Valley via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham (joined with Crewe service)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Tring
  • 1tph: London Euston to Birmingham New Street
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Trent Valley
Avanti:

  • 1tph: London Euston to Blackpool North via Trent Valley (calling at Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Warrington Bank Quays, Wigan North Western, Preston)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly calling at MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Glasgow via Wolverhampton and all major stations to Glasgow or Edinburgh)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Shrewsbury
  • 2tph: London Euston to Chester (7tpd to Holyhead)
    • 1tpd to Wrexham General
 

krus_aragon

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You wouldn’t need to withdraw the Holyhead - Cardiff service to do so. In fact you could improve both by diverting the Holyhead - Birmingham service via Crewe (which will have more paths available after HS2) and upping it from 0.5tph to 1tph, then allow 1tph to run between Holyhead and Cardiff via Wrexham.

Ultimately i’m envisaging 5tph will run on the NWCL between Chester and Llandudno Junction but does it have the capacity to take that many trains?
Ah, I'd understood your "replace the existing Birmingham - Holyhead" to mean its withdrawal, as opposed to its diversion away from Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury.

As for 5tph west of Chester, there's probably the straight-line capacity to do it, but pathing restrictions imported from elsewhere (crossing movements at Saltney Jn, plus fixed paths out of Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, etc) would limit things a bit. (I've did a bit of crayonista timetabling for the post-2022 planned services, and found it a bit challenging.) What would you be thinking of, on top TfW's 3tph (Liverpool-Llandudno, Manchester-Bangor, Cardiff/Birmingham-Holyhead) and an hourly London service?

(Edit: are you looking at an hourly Holyhead?-Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham and also an hourly Holyhead-Shrewsbury-Cardiff?)

You may also want to look a little closer at capacity on the Chester-Shrewsbury line: TfW appear to be planning 2tph on this line from 2022, between the existing Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services and the new Liverpool-Shrewsbury/Cardiff services. With the single track portion north of Wrexham, and long signalling sections around Gobowen, it may be difficult to find space for your circular London-Chester-Shrewsbury-London loop services.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Current:

LNWR:
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Trent Valley
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Birmingham (joined with Walsall service)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Rugeley Trent Valley via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham (joined with Crewe service)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Tring
  • 1tph: London Euston to Milton Keynes Central
Avanti:

  • 1tph: London Euston to Glasgow Central (non-stop to Warrington)
    • 4tpd to Blackpool North
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (non-stop to Stafford)
  • 3tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (1 calling at MKC ,Stoke and Stockport , 1 calling at Stoke Macclesfield and Stockport and the other via Wilmslow)
  • 3tph: London Euston to Birmingham New Street (one extends to Glasgow via Wolverhampon and all major stations to Glasgow or Edinburgh)
    • 2tpd to Shrewsbury
  • 1tph: London Euston to Chester (7tpd to Holyhead)
    • 1tpd to Wrexham General

New Plan Post HS2:


LNWR:
  • 1tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly via Trent Valley and Wilmslow
  • 1tph: London Euston to Crewe via Birmingham (joined with Walsall service)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Rugeley Trent Valley via Birmingham
  • 1tph: London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham (joined with Crewe service)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Tring
  • 1tph: London Euston to Birmingham New Street
  • 1tph: London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Trent Valley
Avanti:

  • 1tph: London Euston to Blackpool North via Trent Valley (calling at Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Warrington Bank Quays, Wigan North Western, Preston)
  • 2tph: London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly calling at MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Glasgow via Wolverhampton and all major stations to Glasgow or Edinburgh)
  • 1tph: London Euston to Shrewsbury
  • 2tph: London Euston to Chester (7tpd to Holyhead)
    • 1tpd to Wrexham General

Don't want any splitting / joining at Birmingham; no improvements for Holyhead; no additional connectivity for the Avanti Manchester; LNWR to Manchester makes little sense; London to Rugeley via Birmingham has already proven problematic; no apparent need for Tring stoppers (they can go on to Bletchley, MKC etc). Just a few obvious pit falls.
 

PTR 444

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Ah, I'd understood your "replace the existing Birmingham - Holyhead" to mean its withdrawal, as opposed to its diversion away from Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury.

As for 5tph west of Chester, there's probably the straight-line capacity to do it, but pathing restrictions imported from elsewhere (crossing movements at Saltney Jn, plus fixed paths out of Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, etc) would limit things a bit. (I've did a bit of crayonista timetabling for the post-2022 planned services, and found it a bit challenging.) What would you be thinking of, on top TfW's 3tph (Liverpool-Llandudno, Manchester-Bangor, Cardiff/Birmingham-Holyhead) and an hourly London service?

(Edit: are you looking at an hourly Holyhead?-Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham and also an hourly Holyhead-Shrewsbury-Cardiff?)

You may also want to look a little closer at capacity on the Chester-Shrewsbury line: TfW appear to be planning 2tph on this line from 2022, between the existing Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services and the new Liverpool-Shrewsbury/Cardiff services. With the single track portion north of Wrexham, and long signalling sections around Gobowen, it may be difficult to find space for your circular London-Chester-Shrewsbury-London loop services.

This is what I was thinking for the NWCL:

1tph Holyhead - London Euston (Avanti)
1tph Holyhead - Birmingham via Stafford & Crewe (TfW)
1tph Holyhead - Cardiff Central via Shrewsbury (TfW)
1tph Llandudno - Manchester Airport (TfW)
1tph Llandudno - Liverpool Lime Street (TfW)

As for Chester - Shrewsbury, I forgot about the single track section. In that case, I think it would be best to break my proposed loop service into two, with 1tph running direct between Euston and Chester and the other 1tph running Euston - Wrexham via Birmingham and Shrewsbury. This would leave the single track section north of Wrexham with a maximum of 2tph each way: Cardiff - Holyhead and Cardiff - Liverpool.
 

Aictos

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I don’t know if it’s possible but would we be able to introduce a second East Croydon to Milton Keynes?
 

krus_aragon

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This is what I was thinking for the NWCL:

1tph Holyhead - London Euston (Avanti)
1tph Holyhead - Birmingham via Stafford & Crewe (TfW)
1tph Holyhead - Cardiff Central via Shrewsbury (TfW)
1tph Llandudno - Manchester Airport (TfW)
1tph Llandudno - Liverpool Lime Street (TfW)

As for Chester - Shrewsbury, I forgot about the single track section. In that case, I think it would be best to break my proposed loop service into two, with 1tph running direct between Euston and Chester and the other 1tph running Euston - Wrexham via Birmingham and Shrewsbury. This would leave the single track section north of Wrexham with a maximum of 2tph each way: Cardiff - Holyhead and Cardiff - Liverpool.

That set of TfW services would need resignalling of Bangor-Holyhead: there's currently a long block section between Valley and Gaerwen (as well as the single track over the Britannia Bridge) which makes 3tph out of Holyhead very tight; that's part of why TfW only plan to extend Manchester services as far as Bangor from the 2022 timetable change.

But that's drifting away from the topic of what trains you'd run along the WCML South. If you want to discuss TfW ideas further, please do start up a thread and let me know; I'll be right over.
 

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EDIT: this proposal requires HS2 to have been completed as far as Crewe - I'm forgetting which phase is which now.

I don’t know if it’s possible but would we be able to introduce a second East Croydon to Milton Keynes?

If it can be pathed on the WLL that would be a very, very good idea indeed.

I'd suggest that rather than cramming in services we should look at taking advantage of the spare capacity to make it a proper Takt with peak extras for optimum connectivity and watch-settable punctuality, and simplification rather than complexity, and if Euston work can be done (or there are enough long platforms freed up) a simplification on local service train lengths too[1]. Avanti will become the budget operation so no need for LNR to have the long through services at all.

So we could have something like:

2 x Clapham Junction via WLL, calling at all stations except Apsley, Kings Langley and Cheddington
4 x Tring stoppers (all mainline stations including Wembley C and Bushey)
4 x MKC semifast (first stop WFJ, miss Apsley, Kings Langley, 2 of them stop at Cheddington but not another station, 2 of them stop at that station but not Cheddington, which one is for debate) - slow line, send these out just before the Trings
4 x non-stop to Leighton, Bletchley, MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St (fast line to Ledburn then slow). 4tph Coventry to New St to call at the local stations not served.
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Crewe, Chester, stations to Holyhead
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Pic
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, all stations (except Euxton BL and Leyland) via the Trent Valley to Preston (or maybe one of the two to Liverpool, in which case from Crewe it would do Hartford, Winsford, Runcorn, South Parkway and Lime St)

Liverpool-Euston LNR reverts to a 5 x 24m shuttle to New St or International. Same for the "wobble" service. 2tph.

Possibly continue the Manchester or one of the Birminghams to Scotland, again calling at all WCML stations.

[1] It'll be Aventras by then, so a sensible aim might be that all off-peak services will be 5x24m and all peak services 10x24m, or possibly just run absolutely everything as 10 south of Northampton to keep it really really simple.
 
Last edited:

Aictos

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Why not extend the Trings to Bletchley or Milton Keynes as a all stations service.

The Milton Keynes semi fast terminators continue to Northampton or Rugby.

I welcome the proposal to make the Birmingham’s faster by not stopping all shacks between Birmingham and Rugby but I would amend the Coventry to Birmingham shuttle to be extended to Wolverhampton and run every 20 minutes.
 

The Planner

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2 x Clapham Junction via WLL, calling at all stations except Apsley, Kings Langley and Cheddington
4 x Tring stoppers (all mainline stations including Wembley C and Bushey)
4 x MKC semifast (first stop WFJ, miss Apsley, Kings Langley, 2 of them stop at Cheddington but not another station, 2 of them stop at that station but not Cheddington, which one is for debate) - slow line, send these out just before the Trings
4 x non-stop to Leighton, Bletchley, MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St (fast line to Ledburn then slow). 4tph Coventry to New St to call at the local stations not served.
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Crewe, Chester, stations to Holyhead
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Pic
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, all stations (except Euxton BL and Leyland) via the Trent Valley to Preston (or maybe one of the two to Liverpool, in which case from Crewe it would do Hartford, Winsford, Runcorn, South Parkway and Lime St)

Liverpool-Euston LNR reverts to a 5 x 24m shuttle to New St or International. Same for the "wobble" service. 2tph.

Possibly continue the Manchester or one of the Birminghams to Scotland, again calling at all WCML stations.
Stafford seems to get done over there, especially if Handsacre gets canned. Also, Birmingham International to New St would not cope with those 10tph plus the TfW and 2 x XC.
 

Bald Rick

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EDIT: this proposal requires HS2 to have been completed as far as Crewe - I'm forgetting which phase is which now.



If it can be pathed on the WLL that would be a very, very good idea indeed.

I'd suggest that rather than cramming in services we should look at taking advantage of the spare capacity to make it a proper Takt with peak extras for optimum connectivity and watch-settable punctuality, and simplification rather than complexity, and if Euston work can be done (or there are enough long platforms freed up) a simplification on local service train lengths too[1]. Avanti will become the budget operation so no need for LNR to have the long through services at all.

So we could have something like:

2 x Clapham Junction via WLL, calling at all stations except Apsley, Kings Langley and Cheddington
4 x Tring stoppers (all mainline stations including Wembley C and Bushey)
4 x MKC semifast (first stop WFJ, miss Apsley, Kings Langley, 2 of them stop at Cheddington but not another station, 2 of them stop at that station but not Cheddington, which one is for debate) - slow line, send these out just before the Trings
4 x non-stop to Leighton, Bletchley, MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St (fast line to Ledburn then slow). 4tph Coventry to New St to call at the local stations not served.
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Crewe, Chester, stations to Holyhead
1 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Pic
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, Coventry, Intl, New St
2 x WFJ, MKC, Rugby, all stations (except Euxton BL and Leyland) via the Trent Valley to Preston (or maybe one of the two to Liverpool, in which case from Crewe it would do Hartford, Winsford, Runcorn, South Parkway and Lime St)

Liverpool-Euston LNR reverts to a 5 x 24m shuttle to New St or International. Same for the "wobble" service. 2tph.

Possibly continue the Manchester or one of the Birminghams to Scotland, again calling at all WCML stations.

[1] It'll be Aventras by then, so a sensible aim might be that all off-peak services will be 5x24m and all peak services 10x24m, or possibly just run absolutely everything as 10 south of Northampton to keep it really really simple.

Wolverhampton!

Also, that fills up the slows, no space for freight.
 

Bletchleyite

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Stafford seems to get done over there, especially if Handsacre gets canned.

Stafford gets the two Prestons/one Preston, one Liverpool plus its existing ICs. Is that much of a downgrade?

Wolves, maybe send one of the two Avanti Brums there, or if one continued to Scotland it would get that as it does now.

Wilmslow would miss out, I couldn't see a sensible way to serve it as two Manchesters are not needed. I suppose you could instead send one of the Prestons to Manchester via Wilmslow instead of Liverpool or Preston?

Also, Birmingham International to New St would not cope with those 10tph plus the TfW and 2 x XC.

Ah. Maybe the LNRs from points south would need to do the local stations, then.
 

Bald Rick

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Stafford gets the two Prestons/one Preston, one Liverpool plus its existing ICs. Is that much of a downgrade?

But it doesn’t get its existing ICs, that’s the point. Stafford will need at least 1tph non stop to Euston.
 

Esker-pades

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Here's something knocked together. I realise its more phase 2 (in that the 2nd fast path has gone to Stoke & Manchester when in phase 1, this will still be served with HS2 phase 1 services). However....

InterCity West Coast:
  1. 1tph North Wales (Stafford, Crewe, Chester)
  2. 1tph Manchester (Milton Keynes, Stoke, Stockport)
  3. 2tph Trent Valley (Milton Keynes, Rugby, all stations to Crewe)*
  4. 2tph Wolverhampton (Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley)
    1. One of these would continue to Shrewsbury/Gobowen/Wrexham (whichever)

West Midlands:
  1. 2tph Rugeley (Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Marston Green, Birmingham New Street, Tame Bridge, Walsall, all stations)
    • Primarily to give Walsall a link to London - the Rugeley extension is for passengers from there to have as quick a journey into Birmingham as possible)
  2. 2tph Birmingham (Watford, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Tile Hill, Birmingham International, Marston Green, Lea Hall, Stechford)
  3. 4tph Northampton (Watford (2tph), Leighton Buzzard, all stations)

*Could continue north. If it does terminate at Crewe, it would have to be run with a modified shoter Pendolino or bimode so it could fit in the longer south-facing bay platforms at Crewe.


Stoke-Manchester services:
  • Northern's stoppers would be cut back to Macclesfield and run twice per hour calling at all stations
  • The ICWC service would be mapped to a XC service in the opposite half hour. That would give 2tph calling only at Stockport.
  • A new WM service would be introduced between Birmingham and Manchester running twice per hour. It would pick up Congleton and Kidsgrove from the dropped Northern service and run fast from Macclesfield (only stopping at Stockport)

Thus, your FL departures from Euston are:
00 - Chester (1)
03 - Crewe (3)
06 - Birmingham (2)
09 - Northampton (3 - WFJ)
13 - Wolverhampton (4)
16/17/18/19 - Spare Path
22 - Rugeley (1)
25 - Northampton (3)
30 - Manchester (2)
33 - Crewe (3)
36 - Birmingham (2)
39 - Northampton (3 - WFJ)
43 - Wolverhampton (4)
46/47/48/49 - Spare Path
52 - Rugeley (1)
55 - Northampton (3)


I'll do another post on slow line services later. How many freight paths an hour should exist?
 
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The Planner

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Thus, your FL departures from Euston are:
00 - Chester (1)
03 - Crewe (3)
06 - Birmingham (2)
09 - Northampton (3 - WFJ)
13 - Wolverhampton (4)
16/17/18/19 - Spare Path
22 - Rugeley (1)
25 - Northampton (3)
30 - Manchester (2)
33 - Crewe (3)
36 - Birmingham (2)
39 - Northampton (3 - WFJ)
43 - Wolverhampton (4)
46/47/48/49 - Spare Path
52 - Rugeley (1)
55 - Northampton (3)
You can't follow 4 minutes behind a FL train with a Watford stop. You would catch it up before it left the platform, you need a 6-7 minute gap at Euston to keep them apart at Bourne End Jn.
 

The Planner

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The Wolverhampton also stops at Watford Junction.

I've uploaded my calculation spreadsheet:
That makes more sense now, though to be a pedant, the xx.13 would need to be xx.14. Its a 13½ minute run to Euston to Watford with a stop for a 390. If the xx.09 is departing Watford at xx.24 then the xx.13 cannot be at Watford until xx.27. You cannot depart Euston on a ½ minute so leaving Euston at xx.14 removes the need for pathing time.
 
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