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Airbus controls are unsafe

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LE Greys

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Something that really gets me angry, as in :-x :-x:-x

I've just watched a documentary about the loss of Air France 447 last year, and I've discovered that Airbus are selling airliners with unsafe controls. Firstly, they use fiddly little side-sticks, which don't have proper 'feel' response (imagine driving a car with a silly little steering wheel off an arcade game). Secondly, I now find out that the autothrottle does not move the throttle levers if it changes position. This means that if it cuts out, the throttles might look as though they are almost fully open, whereas they are actually partly closed. This has happened. On several occasions, the aircraft nearly stalled before someone realised what was going on. [Comment removed]

How can Airbus get away with selling airliners, not private aircraft or military machines, airliners with unsafe controls? Boeing still use proper control yokes, for better feel, and throttle levers that move with the autothrottle. I'm probably on completely the wrong forum, but this makes me so angry that I want to go over to Toulouse and strangle the designers. [Comment removed]
 
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ainsworth74

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Firstly, they use fiddly little side-sticks

The military have been using sticks for decades that don't have 'feel', due to fly-by-wire, i.e. your input on the stick tells the computer to move the Ailerons or other flight controls. Rather than you physically moving them via hydraulic imputs. Seeing as many airline pilots are ex-military I don't see it as being an issue. And even if their not ex-military I still don't see it being an issue, the system has been in use by civilian airlines since the end of the 80s. If you remember that airliner that ditched in the Hudson river in the US about a year ago, it had a similar control system and the pilot still managed to pull off the hardest menouver possible in an airliner, ditiching in the water.

The auto-throttles however is worrying to say the least. To call the controls unsafe however I'm not sure is correct. These planes have to be certified by god knows how many independent organisations before they can carry passengers, or even fly in some nations air space. If the controls were grossly dangerous then I doubt the plane would even be certified to fly.

They killed 216 people by fitting a passenger aircraft with controls off a playstation.

I didn't think that the investigation had determined the cause of the accident yet, but the finger was being pointed at the pitot tubes which report the airspeed of the aircraft, not the controls.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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The military have been using sticks for decades that don't have 'feel', due to fly-by-wire, i.e. your input on the stick tells the computer to move the Ailerons or other flight controls. Rather than you physically moving them via hydraulic imput

Quite. The controls are actually safer than the traditional because when an aircraft goes into a dive or suffers some kind of failure it can take a considerable amount of physical strength to move, and this has been proved in many accident reports. The Airbus type can be held easily while a computer and machinery exert the force better than a human could.
 

eos

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The Airbus type can be held easily while a computer and machinery exert the force better than a human could

Ahh , a sort of ' servo power steering' and 'servo power assisted braking' , used in cars, buses, lorries etc of all sorts for last 50 years, but for aircraft. Not exactly that high in technology to give some 'feedback' to the pilot.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Ahh , a sort of ' servo power steering' and 'servo power assisted braking' , used in cars, buses, lorries etc of all sorts for last 50 years, but for aircraft. Not exactly that high in technology to give some 'feedback' to the pilot.

As also explained in the documentary; feedback to the pilot is often not accurate and has caused accidents. They interviewed a pilot who said that, at night, it felt to him like the plane was banked, while it was level. This is exacerbated at night, when there are no landmarks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They killed 216 people by fitting a passenger aircraft with controls off a playstation.
A sweeping statement which is wrong, by someone who doesn't fly those planes and neither is a pilot.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I watched this last night and having had the opportunity to drive two hovercraft, one fitted with a traditional yoke and the other with a sidestick, I can say two things from direct experience:

1) The sidestick craft was actually very easy to control.

2) But despite that I would very much rather have a proper yoke in my hands.

Incidentally, if you visit my website ( linked off my profile ) you will find in the galleries a photograph of me at the controls of the sidestick fitted craft.



And I would agree that the auto throttles on the Airbus products should, like with Boeing and other manufacturers, move the levers to match the actual settings rather than leave them on the nominal settings. It just makes things much more obvious to the pilots, as the documentary said.

Prior to 9/11 I had the privilege of several rides in the flight observer's seat and I have to say that when throttle levers move of their own accord during an automatic approach for landing the movement really is very obvious. It's also quite interesting to watch - reminded me a bit of those pianos that play themselves!
 

flymo

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Can I suggest that if you are interested in any info from actual airline pilots that fly the Airbus family of aircraft including the A330-200 as in AF447 take a look at airliners.net which has a wealth of knowledge on this and other matters. You need to pay and join up to take part in any discussion but you can read the threads without joining. If you need any help finding the threads in there let me know and I'll either post the links to them here (if the mods are ok with that) or PM them to you if you like.

Whilst the controls of the Airbus may be different to those of Boeing aircraft I think calling them unsafe is completely wrong.
 

LE Greys

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Quite. The controls are actually safer than the traditional because when an aircraft goes into a dive or suffers some kind of failure it can take a considerable amount of physical strength to move, and this has been proved in many accident reports. The Airbus type can be held easily while a computer and machinery exert the force better than a human could.

I suggest you look at Concorde controls. While usually FBW with a hydraulic backup, there was an 'artificial feel' system that provided feedback through the yoke, mostly to discourage extreme control inputs. You could turn it off with a switch. The centre-stick arrangement on the Vulcan was similar, and incorporated a grab-switch to turn the autopilot off if you grabbed the stick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A sweeping statement which is wrong, by someone who doesn't fly those planes and neither is a pilot.

The only reason I'm not is that I'm not medically fit to hold a licence. I've flown plenty of simulators, but that doesn't count. However, my grandfather was a test pilot, and I know plenty of people in the aviation community who don't like the system. They think it doesn't provide proper feedback and that the FBW settings encourage complacency. It is easier to use because the workload is lower, but that does not make it safer or easier to handle in unusual conditions.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Then surely autopilot and auto lands should be abolished because they encourage complacency?
 

LE Greys

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Then surely autopilot and auto lands should be abolished because they encourage complacency?

The only safe use for autopilot is in cruise in clear weather, where all it would have to do is hold a constant course and altitude. During all other phases in flight, I personally would never use it, and the vast majority of Air Force pilots would not do so either. Auto-land in fog is useful, but uncomfortable, otherwise I would trust my own judgement rather than a computer, no matter how good. Autothrottle is definitely useful for holding a constant IAS/Mach number/level of thrust, but I wouldn't use it during takeoff or landing. However, you have to have visual/tactile feedback from the position of the throttle levers, which means that they have to move on their own.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can I suggest that if you are interested in any info from actual airline pilots that fly the Airbus family of aircraft including the A330-200 as in AF447 take a look at airliners.net which has a wealth of knowledge on this and other matters. You need to pay and join up to take part in any discussion but you can read the threads without joining. If you need any help finding the threads in there let me know and I'll either post the links to them here (if the mods are ok with that) or PM them to you if you like.

I've just had a look at the debate on this very subject, very interesting.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I agree on the throttle point, that is useful. However autopilot can hold a route rather than one heading now, so can turn the plane.
 

yorkie

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Le Grays, can you please post evidence to substantiate these serious allegations? Thanks.
 

GB

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The only safe use for autopilot is in cruise in clear weather, where all it would have to do is hold a constant course and altitude. During all other phases in flight, I personally would never use it

By your own admision you are not a pilot, so what exactly qualifies you to make an assessment on what you would or wouldn't use?

Airbus has been using the same control system for some years so like Yorkie I'd like to know on what evidence (other than a TV documentry) you base your unproven accusations on.
 

ainsworth74

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I think yorkie and GB have struck on the main problem here. There is little or no evidence (in the public domain anyway) on which we can base an opinion of the accident. We would be better served by waiting till the offical report has been published and see what they point to as being the cause of the accident (just like we would if this was an accident on the railways).
 

LE Greys

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By your own admision you are not a pilot, so what exactly qualifies you to make an assessment on what you would or wouldn't use?

Airbus has been using the same control system for some years so like Yorkie I'd like to know on what evidence (other than a TV documentry) you base your unproven accusations on.

Firstly, I probably flew off the handle a little bit over this one, I'm sorry about that. It was something I've been saying for years, and I thought I'd just seen proof. I probably know about as much about aviation as I do about railways, from many years at air shows, museums, occasionally helping with restoration and study (from when I was trying to become an aeronautical engineer). I'm going on that, and on second-hand accounts from people who have actually done it (who are mostly RAF, not airline) However, I've never been able to fly apart from five minutes in a glider, so you're absolutely right there. Simulators or grounded cockpit sections are as near as I've ever got to flying a powered aircraft. Still, I've only ever driven a locomotive twice, both of them steam, on preserved lines. Not sure if that is relevant, but it's worth remembering.

Incidentally, I've just spent the last half hour going through the website of the Air Accident Investigation Branch looking to see if there is any consensus of opinion on the subject. I won't post a link to every single report, but I'd recommend a look.
 

CosherB

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Well, I've been flying aeroplanes for over thirty years and to me, power levers that don't move when the A/P changes the power settings, and trim wheels that don't turn when the A/P re-trims the aeroplane are not good. They are not in themselves inherantly dangerous, but they do deprive the pilot of clues as to what's going on, so why fit them? Sidesticks, BTW, are fine.

Pilots 'grow up' flying aeroplanes where if the power changes, the levers move (either automatically or are moved by the pilot to set the power). Likewise trim wheels; these things are important as indicators of aircraft status.

Both the examples I give have been major contributers to Airbus accidents in the past (pilots not being aware low power was set becuase the levers were well forward where they'd normally be for high power, and pilots not realising how out of trim the aeroplane had become, leading to loss of control on disengaging the A/P).

On the other hand, who knows what accidents have been prevented by the Airbus automatic systems?
 

LE Greys

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That wasn't a very gracious apology, and I'll restate it. I'm sorry about mouthing off like that and will try not to do so completely in future.

My grandfather was killed in a testing accident, so I do have personal reasons for caring about air safety.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I don't normally post on topics if I can't add anything constructive, but this thread concerns me deeply.
In this case, I have a little knowledge of the development of the Airbus fly-by-wire philosophy and its actual software implementation over more than 20 years.
It has been developed WITH air professionals, FOR air professionals, BY air professionals and has been widely informed by experienced air crew.
It remains widely respected among airline professionals for its ability to prevent some of the hazardous situations that face a plane in flight.

I strongly object to sensationist postings such as the OP's on this thread.
That appears to be a direct accusation, but without foundation (one dramatised TV show with dubiously intercut fragments of speculation about circumstances that possibly applied to a fatal incident).

Air professionals have been discussing this tradgey for well over a year. None has criticised the man-machine interface which Le Greys identifies as a causal component.
Not only has the professional report not yet been published (and a TV "what scandal can we turn into an outrage with sinister music this week" show does not constitute a report), but airline professionals have been (and still are) concentrating on safe flight envelopes within highly turbulent storms; a difficult theoretical subject in exceptional practical circumstances. Nothing to do with the particular aircraft design on 447, and nothing to do with the actual personnel on that flight. EADS and Air France are underwriting the enormous costs of the ongoing enquiry. (not a TV company!)

A lot of passengers and crew are dead.
Some sensitivity is always appropriate before accusing any party of being the cause of those deaths, and the facts had better be correct. we should all know that TV dramatised pseudo-"documentaries" are not informed facts.

I object strongly to this thread.
It has the potential to add to personal distress.
It is uninformed and misleading.
It adds nothing to the committed efforts to determine the cause of the loss of that actual aircraft
It adds nothing to the exceptionaly high standard of commercial air safety.
There are much better fora for this point of view where a global network of experienced air professionals will appropriately respond.
This forum would benefit from the complete removal of this thread.

[Declaration of interest. I an a shareholder in EADS and have been involved in related safety critical software development]
 
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mbonwick

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I watched the said program last night.

The method of control had nothing to do with the suggested loss of Air France 447.

What did, the documentary speculated, was the blocking of a pietot tube by ice. Airbus immediately upgraded the replacement of said tubes by airlines from "recommended" to "critical"
 

LE Greys

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As the OP, I intend to make no further contribution to this thread, am actually slightly embarrassed about what I said earlier, and ask that somebody please lock it as soon as possible.
 

Old Timer

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As a frequent flyer these days, I avoid any Airbus operated flight where possible.

There have been several "incidents" involving the computerised systems that have never been properly resolved and Airbus has a marked tendency to blame the flight crew for any incident as a first response.

The icing of the pitot heads used on the Airbus A330 was well known but certainly not acted upon in a forceful manner by Airbus. The NTSB made the replacement mandatory and KLM (Air France's "partner" these days) had already retro-fitted their small Airbus fleet. Air France chose not to, despite mounting incidents.

Air France / Airbus share a typically "French" approach to anything that may affect their businesses/France plc. There have already been allegations by the Swiss that a FDR from a crashed a/c had been swopped. Frankly from what dealings I have had with French Companies I would not find that hard to believe.

It is also coming to light that a number of improper and indeed unsafe practices have been identified, whereby AF have shown the true destination as an "alternate" destination when they have been operating close to or beyond the legal limits. E.g. Bordeaux is shown as the destination with Paris CDG as the "alternate".

A number of Airbus pilots have previously commented on public air industry forums that they do not fly Airbus off duty nor would they allow their families to fly on them.

The following extract from freeinternetpress.com makes interesting reading.
freeinternetpress.com

The crash of Air France flight 447 from Rio to Paris last year is one of the most mysterious accidents in the history of aviation. After months of investigation, a clear picture has emerged of what went wrong. The reconstruction of the horrific final four minutes reveal continuing safety problems in civil aviation.

One tiny technical failure heralded the impending disaster. But the measurement error was so inconspicuous that the pilots in the cockpit of the Airbus A330 probably hardly noticed it.

Air France flight 447 had been in the air for three hours and 40 minutes since taking off from Rio de Janeiro on the evening of May 31, 2009. Strong turbulence had been shaking the plane for half an hour, and all but the hardiest frequent flyers were awake.

Suddenly the gauge indicating the external temperature rose by several degrees, even though the plane was flying at an altitude of 11 kilometers (36,000 feet) and it hadn't got any warmer outside. The false reading was caused by thick ice crystals forming on the sensor on the outside of the plane. These crystals had the effect of insulating the detector. It now appears that this is when things started going disastrously wrong.


Flying through thunderclouds over the Atlantic, more and more ice was hurled at the aircraft. In the process, it knocked out other, far more important, sensors: the pencil-shaped airspeed gauges known as pitot tubes.

One alarm after another lit up the cockpit monitors. One after another, the autopilot, the automatic engine control system, and the flight computers shut themselves off. "It was like the plane was having a stroke," says Gerard Arnoux, the head of the French pilots union SPAF.

The final minutes of flight AF 447 had begun. Four minutes after the airspeed indicator failed, the plane plunged into the ocean, killing all 228 people on board.

Few airline crashes in recent years have subsequently unnerved passengers to quite the same extent. "How was it possible that an Airbus from such an apparently safe airline could simply disappear?" they wondered.

Passengers on the Rio-Paris route are still uneasy as they board their plane. After the accident, the flight number was changed to AF 445. Many frequent flyers have since opted for daytime flights across the Atlantic because pilots can recognize storm fronts more easily during the day.

Another large-scale search for the stricken plane's "black box" flight recorders is due to begin in the coming weeks. Once again some 2,000 square kilometers (800 square miles) of mountainous ocean floor will be swept, some of it by a submarine from from the northern German city of Kiel. "We shouldn't speculate about the causes of the accident until the search has been completed," says Jean-Paul Troadec, the director of the French air crash investigation agency BEA.

Other experts are less guarded in their comments. "We know pretty well why the accident happened," says union boss Arnoux.

'An Accident Like This Could Happen Again'

Over the course of several months of investigation, experts have gathered evidence that allows them to reconstruct with relative accuracy what happened on board during those last four minutes. It has also brought to light a safety flaw that affects all jet airplanes currently in service. "An accident like this could happen again at any time," Arnoux predicts.

Experts reconstructed dozens of incidents involving Airbus planes to try to piece together the puzzle of this particular disaster. Plane wreckage and body parts give crucial clues as to what brought the plane down. Crash investigators also conducted detailed analyzes of the 24 automatic fault messages that the aircraft sent to Air France headquarters by satellite in the run-up to the accident. One particular message - the very last one transmitted before impact - could solve the mystery surrounding flight AF 447.

A half moon lit up the Atlantic Ocean on the night of May 31, offering reasonably favorable conditions for a flight through the dangerous inter-tropical convergence zone. That's where violent thunderstorms rage and columns of thick clouds bar the way like an aerial obstacle course. In addition to the on-board radar, the moon helps pilots identify dangerous cloud formations and take appropriate measures.

On the night of the tragedy, other planes diverted their flight paths and took a detour around the danger zone.

Why then did flight AF 447 head straight into the deadly storm system? Is it possible that the tragedy began even before the plane took off?

Galeao Airport, Rio de Janeiro, 6pm local time: Preparation for takeoff

Captain Marc Dubois, 58, goes through the flight plan of AF 447: He enters a starting weight of 232,757 tons into the on-board computer, 243 kilograms less than the maximum permissible weight for the A330. As well as the passengers' luggage, the ground crews load 10 tons of freight into the cargo bay. Dubois has more than 70 tons of kerosene pumped into the fuel tanks. That sounds a lot more than it actually is, because the plane consumes up to 100 kilograms of kerosene every minute. The fuel reserves don't give much leeway.

It's only by means of a trick that the captain can reach Paris with more than the legal minimum reserves of kerosene that must be in the plane's tanks upon arrival in the French capital. A loophole allows him to enter Bordeaux - which lies several hundred kilometers closer than Paris - as the fictitious destination for his fuel calculations.

"Major deviation would therefore no longer have been possible anymore," says Gerhard Huttig, an Airbus pilot and professor at the Berlin Technical University's Aerospace Institute. If worse came to worst, the pilot would have to stop and refuel in Bordeaux, or maybe even in Lisbon. "But pilots are very reluctant to do something like that," Huttig adds. After all, it makes the flight more expensive, causes delays and is frowned upon by airline bosses.

After takeoff, Dubois quickly takes the plane up to a cruising altitude of 35,000 feet (10.6 kilometers), an altitude known as "flight level 350." According to his kerosene calculations, he has to climb far further, to above 11 kilometers, where the thin air reduces his fuel consumption.

It's not known whether he actually reached this altitude. Three hours after leaving Rio, Captain Dubois contacted Brazilian air traffic control for the last time. "Flight level 350," he reported. It was to be his last communication with the outside world.


Minute One: The Sensors Fail

It's hard to imagine a more precarious situation, even for pilots with nerves of steel: Flying through a violent thunderstorm that shakes the entire plane as the master warning lamp starts blinking on the instrument panel in front of you. An earsplitting alarm rings out, and a whole series of error messages suddenly flash up on the flight motor.

The crew immediately recognized that the three airspeed indicators all gave different readings. "A situation like that goes well a hundred times and badly once," says Arnoux, who flies an Airbus A320 himself.


The responsible pilot now had very little time to choose the correct flight angle and the correct engine thrust. This is the only way he could be certain to keep flying on a stable course and maintain steady airflow across the wings if he didn't know the plane's actual speed. The co-pilot must therefore look up the two safe values in a table in the relevant handbook - at least that's the theory.

"In practice, the plane is shaken about so badly that you have difficulty finding the right page in the handbook, let alone being able to decipher what it says," says Arnoux. "In situations like that, mistakes are impossible to rule out."

Danger of Icing Up

Aerospace experts have long known how dangerous it can be if the airspeed indicators fail because the pitot tubes ice up. In 1998, for example, a Lufthansa Airbus circling over Frankfurt Airport lost its airspeed indicator, and a potential tragedy was only averted when the ice melted as the plane descended. At the time, German air accident investigators at the German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation (BFU) in Braunschweig demanded that the specifications of the pitot tubes be changed to enable "unrestricted flight in severely icy conditions."

As early as 2005, the French aerospace company Thales, which manufactures the pitot tubes used on flight AF 447, set up a project group called Adeline to search for new technical solutions to the problem. According to a Thales document, loss of the airspeed indicators "could cause aircraft crashes, especially in cases in which the sensors ice up."

Aircraft manufacturer Airbus was well aware of the shortcomings of the Thales pitot tubes. An internal list kept by the airline manufacturer shows there were nine incidents involving them between May and October 2008 alone.

More than two months before the Air France crash, the issue had been raised at a meeting between Airbus and the European Aviation Safety Agency. However, the EASA decided against banning the particularly error-prone pitot tubes made by Thales.

In fact, the problem with the airspeed indicators lies far deeper. To this day, the relevant licensing bodies still only test pitot tubes down to temperatures of minus 40 degrees Celsius (minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit) and an altitude of about 9,000 meters (30,000 feet). These completely antiquated specifications date back to 1947 - before the introduction of jet planes.

What's more, most of the incidents of recent years, including that involving the ill-fated flight AF 447, occurred at altitudes above 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).


Minute Two: Loss of Control

Did the pilots on flight AF 447 know about the airspeed indicator failures experienced by colleagues on nine other aircraft belonging to their own airline? Air France had indeed distributed a note about this to all its pilots, albeit as part of several hundred pages of information that pilots find in their inbox every week. One thing is certain: The pilots on flight AF 447 had never trained in a flight simulator for a high-altitude breakdown of the airspeed indicator.

The situation in the cockpit was made even more difficult by the fact that the flight computer of the A330 put itself into a kind of emergency program. The plane's digital brain usually supervises all activity by its pilots - at least, as long as its sensors provide reliable data. Without a speed reading, the computer more or -less throws in the towel, which doesn't make things easier for the pilots.


"The controls suddenly feel completely different to the pilot," says flight expert Huttig. The sheer complexity of the Airbus' systems makes it difficult to control in critical phases of the flight. It would be easier for pilots if they could simply switch the computer off in critical situations, as is possible on Boeing planes.

Pitot tubes sometimes also fail on Boeing aircraft. When Spiegel contacted the American Federal Aviation Administration, the body which oversees civilian flight in the U.S., the FAA confirmed that there had been eight such incidents on a Boeing 777, three on a 767, and one each on a 757 and a Jumbo. Boeing is currently conducting a study on the safety effects of "high-altitude pitot icing on all models in its product line," says FAA spokeswoman Alison Duquette. The FAA did not, however, identify "any safety issues arising" during these incidents.

Could it therefore be that the flight computer, which is hard to manage in emergencies, actually contributed to the loss of control by the Airbus pilots? Air-safety experts Huttig and Arnoux are demanding an immediate investigation into how the Airbus system reacts to a failure of its airspeed sensors.

Unexpected Reaction

In early March, the BFU in Germany is due to publish the findings of its investigation into the near-crash of a Lufthansa A320 two years ago at Fuhlsbüttel Airport in Hamburg, a report that will undoubtedly prove uncomfortable reading for Airbus. In that incident, an unexpected reaction by the flight computer caused the jet's left wing to scrape along the runway while landing. The BFU is due to issue 12 safety recommendations, some of which concern Airbus' computer programs.

So far, it's unclear who was controlling the Air France plane in its final minutes. Was it the experienced flight captain, Dubois, or one of his two first officers? Typically, a captain retreats to his cabin to rest a while after takeoff. Indeed, there's corroborative evidence to suggest that the captain was not sitting in the cockpit at the time of the crash: His body was recovered from the Atlantic, whereas those of his two copilots sank to the bottom of the ocean still attached to their seats. This would suggest that Dubois was not wearing a seatbelt.

In contrast to many other airlines, it is standard practice at Air France for the less experienced of the two copilots to take the captain's seat when the latter is not there. The experienced copilot remains in his seat on the right-hand side of the cockpit. Under normal circumstances, that is not a problem, but in emergencies it can increase the likelihood of a crash.

As a consequence, it was probably the plane's third pilot, Pierre-Cedric Bonin, a dashing amateur yachtsman, who steered the aircraft to its doom. Bonin's wife was also on board, while their two children were at home with their grandfather.


Minute Three: Freefall

Not long after the airspeed indicator failed, the plane went out of control and stalled. Presumably the airflow over the wings failed to provide lift. Arnoux, from the pilots' union, estimates that the plane fell toward the sea at about 42 meters per second (95 mph) - almost the same speed as a freefalling parachutist.

Arnoux's version of events is based in part on the timing of a transmitted error message about the equalization of pressure between the cabin and the outside of the plane, which usually happens at 2,000 meters (7,000 feet) above sea level. Had the airplane nosedived, this alarm would have been triggered earlier. "It takes almost exactly four minutes to freefall from cruising altitude to sea level," Arnoux says.


According to this scenario, the pilots would have been forced to watch helplessly as their plane lost its lift. That theory is supported by the fact that the airplane remained intact to the very end. Given all the turbulence, it is therefore possible that the passengers remained oblivious to what was happening. After all, the oxygen masks that have been recovered had not dropped down from the ceiling because of a loss of pressure. What's more, the stewardesses weren't sitting on their emergency seats, and the lifejackets remained untouched. "There is no evidence whatsoever that the passengers in the cabin had been prepared for an emergency landing," says BEA boss Jean-Paul Troadec.

Two seemingly insignificant lines from the warning reports transmitted by the aircraft show how desperately the pilots fought to keep control. They read "F/CTL PRIM 1 FAULT" and "F/CTL SEC 1 FAULT".

This somewhat cryptic shorthand suggest the pilots tried desperately to restart the flight computer. "It's like trying to turn your car engine off and then on again while driving along the motorway at night at 180 kilometers an hour (110 mph)," says Arnoux.

The attempt to resuscitate the on-board computer proved unsuccessful. For the last 600 meters (2,000 feet) before impact, the pilots' efforts would have been accompanied by the chilling calls of an automated male voice: "Terrain! Terrain! Pull up! Pull up!"


Minute Four: Impact

More than 200 tons of metal, plastic, kerosene and human bodies smashed into the sea. The sheer force of the impact is described in the forensic report, which lists in graphic detail how lungs were torn apart and bones were shredded end to end. Some of the passengers were sliced in half by their seatbelt.

Much of the debris that has been recovered is no larger than a square meter (10 square feet). The shear-lines run at a conspicuous angle. This shows that the plane did not plunge vertically into the sea, but rather hit the water like a flat hand, with the nose of the aircraft pointing upwards at a five-degree angle. Of particular interest is the large tailfin that was recovered from the ocean by the Brazilian navy. This was ripped from its anchoring and catapulted forwards. From this, it can be deduced that the A330 was brought to a halt with a force more than 36 times that of normal gravity: 36g.


Although Airbus continues to play down the significance of the pitot tubes in the crash of its A330, the company's engineers have since developed new technologies that will detect the breakdown of airspeed sensors even before takeoff. Airbus registered a patent for this technology in the U.S. on Dec. 3, 2009. In the words of the patent application, errors in speed measurements "can have catastrophic consequences."

For several years now, Airbus has offered its customers a special safety program - called "Buss" - at a cost of €300,000 per aircraft. If the airspeed indicator fails, this software shows pilots the angle at which they must point the plane.

Up to now, Air France has chosen not to invest in this optional extra for its fleet.
You should also read this, from the Times Online.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6914870.ece
 

CosherB

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Always remember that air accidents are almost always never caused by one factor. It takes several things to go wrong to result in an accident. We pilots refer to this as 'the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up'. Normally, there are many holes, but you can't see through the cheese. If the holes start to align, eventually you will see daylight, and that equates to an accident.

The pilot's job is to watch for 'holes lining up' and ensure they are de-aligned before there is a hole right through the cheese.

In this instance, as far as we know the initiator of the accident was frozen pitot heads. But all that does is to deprive the pilots and the auto systems of indicated air speed readings. You can fly an aeroplane without that - you use power and attitude. That is, you set cruise power and you pitch the aeroplane to the attitude it normally adopts at cruise speed. if you do that, the speed will be correct.

I must emphasise that without the black boxes we really don't know - but we have the considerable amount of data downloaded from the aircraft just before the accident. However, it has been suggested that the pilots (who were under a great deal of stress) might have delayed setting correct power because they were initially misled by the 'false' position of the power levers due to the way the Airbus autothrottle works (it changes engine power but does not move the power levers appropriately).

We can also assume that if severe ice accretiation was a major factor, it would probably have affected other sensors on the outside of the aeroplane, such as angle of attack sensors. This wouldn't help, but would not precude flying the aeroplane to the power/attitude formula.
 

Old Timer

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Hello CS

From my reading of what has been reported so far, and experience of flying through the ITCZ, I suspect that the conditions might not have been favourable to that.

From conversations with Pilots, and other reading, it is not that easy to take the a/c out of auto-pilot, indeed the a/c is not designed to be flown in that way. The other factor of course were that they were in "coffin-corner".

If the IAS was being fed to the IFC, then the automatic response would have been for the throttles to be open and/or the nose to be put down to counter that, of course as you will know that would lead to a stall and probably an almost complete loss of control (as happened over Australia on two previous occasions).

I think debate still goes on about whether or not the weather would have been seen on the radar, however I do know that the KLM flight deck crews will re-route further north, or descend if they encounter such conditions. They are very wary of flying through the ITCZ, and from what I can pick up they do not get pressure from "above" if they call for extra fuel and re-route. This give sme a lot of confidence in KLM as a carrier, hence why I always try to fly with them whenever possible.
 

CosherB

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It is true that the aeroplane was in a speed-critical phase of flight (coffin corner), as are all airliners (except Concorde!) when at high altitude cuise. The IAS is relatively low because of the thin air, and with the wing configured to cruise (no high lift devices deployed) it has a relatively high stall speed. The mach stall isn't far away either; so fly too slow, and you get an aerodynamic wing stall. Fly too fast, and you get a mach stall as the local airflow over parts of the wing goes supersonic.

It doesn't take much speed change to enter either regime (perhaps as little as plus or minus 20 knots), hence the vital importance of setting that power and attitude immediately to limit speed excurtions when the IAS is no longer available. In severe turbulence, this isn't easy! You need the aeroplane not to hinder you, and unrepresentative power lever positions are not helpful at such time of extreme stress!

Either form of stall can be very difficult to recover from, especially if the stall is asymetric and one wing goes first. A lot of height will be lost, and it is very easy to overstress the airframe as the speed builds up during the dive and recovery, even assuming a full spin doesn't develop (airliners are not designed to recover from spins). I think a spin unlikey here, as the aeroplane is known to have impacted with a low forward speed and very high rate of desecnt, and still intact. That says to me it was symetrically stalled, probably all the way down 'till it hit the sea.

I've no experience of flying the Airbus, but I understand from Airbus pilots that it is possible to manually fly the aeroplane at any time within limits defined by the auto-systems (i.e it limits alpha, speed, and bank angle despite how the pilot moves the flight controls). However, when the automatics give up (as we think they did in this case) the pilots will have manual control of the aerolane available to them.

I am not going to jump to conclusions about exactly what caused this accident, but on the evidence we have at present, I don't disagree with much that the TV program found.
 
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mbonwick

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In this instance, as far as we know the initiator of the accident was frozen pitot heads. But all that does is to deprive the pilots and the auto systems of indicated air speed readings. You can fly an aeroplane without that - you use power and attitude. That is, you set cruise power and you pitch the aeroplane to the attitude it normally adopts at cruise speed. if you do that, the speed will be correct.

You are quite correct. However, the TV suggested that the crew were slow to take control of the throttles - engine power gauges are located on the centre console, out of the pilots direct concentration.

Standard proceedure is to pitch up with 85% throttle, but in simulator tests it took pilots up to 65 seconds to take control of the throttles.
 

CosherB

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You are quite correct. However, the TV suggested that the crew were slow to take control of the throttles - engine power gauges are located on the centre console, out of the pilots direct concentration.

Standard proceedure is to pitch up with 85% throttle, but in simulator tests it took pilots up to 65 seconds to take control of the throttles.

Standard procedure on the 'Bus if you loose IAS, I'm told by a mate who flys them, is to disconnect auto-thrust, select idle power and zero degrees pitch-up (which will ensure a good start baseline and eliminate any unwanted pitch angles), then, when that's established, set cruise power and cruise pitch.
 

Old Timer

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Standard procedure on the 'Bus if you loose IAS, I'm told by a mate who flys them, is to disconnect auto-thrust, select idle power and zero degrees pitch-up (which will ensure a good start baseline and eliminate any unwanted pitch angles), then, when that's established, set cruise power and cruise pitch.
Question.

You are at F/L and the pitots start to ice up gradually, despite the pitot head heaters being switched on.

How is the flight management computer system going to detect that this is happening ?

My understanding of the Australian incidents is that the FMCS applied power / altered the pitch causing speed to build up and loss of control.

In the dark, in turbulence, and with various computer systems shutting down, it becomes almost an impossibility to respond sufficiently quickly to take control. That said I feel in my bones a distinct leaning towards blaming the crew rather than accept that there is an issue with the FMCS.

As no-one flies at F/L 350 manually, and especially in weather conditions like this, this seems rather unfair.

Allied to this the fact that Airbus "suggest" the solution is to shut down the FMCS and re-boot, whilst (I am told) the a/c has to be flying straight and level whilst this is done.

Not a good scenario.
 
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