Stirling - London super off-peak restrictions

[Failed Unit]

All,

I am getting confused by the restrictions on the super-off peak ticket between London and Stirling (return portion).

East coast clearly state that super-off peak are not valid on thier trains departing between 1457 and 1845. Virgin don't have this restriction for services to Scotland.

In short I am barred from the 1500 London - Edinburgh (change for Stirling) but I am OK on the 1530 & 1630 London - Glasgow services (change for Stirling) is this correct. I alway thought restrictions applied to ticket rather than the operator

The person who is wanting the ticket is travelling out on Friday on the 1030 direct train, they don't know if they will get the 1400 return or not. Would people advise to get a super-off peak anyway (£111) or go for the Weekend return (£163). If they went for the super-off peak and then went on the invalid 1500 would they be excessed to the Weekend return or to the off-peak @ (£192) ?

 

[bb21]

I'll try this one. The restriction code on the £111.10 SSR ticket is 1K which appears to have different restrictions for Euston (Virgin) and King's X. Euston has no afternoon restrictions and King's X has no separate entry so the standard restriction is used which makes the ticket valid between 0929 and 1457 (incl) and after 1859 (incl). On Fridays it is also valid after 1815 (incl).

So I think you're right in that the 1500 EC train would be invalid yet any Virgin service out of Euston in the afternoon is fine.

 

[gordonthemoron]

eastcoast mixing desk shows only Euston services valid for the super off peak after 14:00

 

[caughtonatrain]

OP also asks an interesting question: can a SSR be excessed to a Weekender? I would like to know this too as it has affected my ticket choices in the past...

 

[John @ home]

I am getting confused by the restrictions on the super-off peak ticket between London and Stirling (return portion).

... I am barred from the 1500 London - Edinburgh (change for Stirling) but I am OK on the 1530 & 1630 London - Glasgow services (change for Stirling) is this correct.

Yes. The Stirling to London super off-peak return takes restriction 1K

Restriction : 1K
OFF-PEAK JOURNEYS TO/VIA LONDON (including Stevenage, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford & Luton).

Available as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS (By any train on Bank Holidays and other days). For journeys on Cross Country to/via Birmingham, use restriction code 2V.

Outward travel SOUTHBOUND - by any travel scheduled to ARRIVE at or after:
LONDON TERMINALS (except as shown below): 1117.
LONDON ST PANCRAS: 1129.
LONDON EUSTON: 1005. Also valid on all First ScotRail Caledonian Sleepers (with supplement).
STEVENAGE: 1100.
LUTON: 1129.
LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY: 1129.
BEDFORD: 1129.
WATFORD JUNCTION: 1020. Also valid on all First ScotRail Caledonian Sleepers (with supplement).
MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL: 1020. Also valid on all First ScotRail Caledonian Sleepers (with supplement).

Return Travel - by any train scheduled to DEPART:
LONDON TERMINALS (except as shown below): Between 0929 and 1457 inclusive & at or after 1859. Also allowed at or after 1815 on Fridays only.
LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET: Between 0930 and 1629 inclusive & at or after 1834.
LONDON ST PANCRAS: Between 1026 and 1515 inclusive & at or after 1859.
LONDON EUSTON: At or after 0905.
STEVENAGE: between 0939 and 1507 inclusive & at or after 1909. Also allowed at or after 1835 on Fridays only.
LUTON: Between 1026 and 1515 inclusive & at or after 1859.
LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY: Between 1026 and 1515 inclusive & at or after 1859.
BEDFORD:Between 1026 and 1515 inclusive & at or after 1859.
WATFORD JUNCTION: At or after 0900.
MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL: At or after 0900.

The person who is wanting the ticket is travelling out on Friday on the 1030 direct train, they don't know if they will get the 1400 return or not. Would people advise to get a super-off peak anyway (£111) or go for the Weekend return (£163).

Buy the super off-peak return in the first instance.

If they went for the super-off peak and then went on the invalid 1500 would they be excessed to the Weekend return or to the off-peak @ (£192)?

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage give the passenger the right to excess to the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

A super off-peak return is not one of the types of discounted tickets [where] the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. In general, Advance tickets are.

In this instance, the Excess fare is £51.90 (WKR £163 minus SSR £111.10) if the outward and return ticket dates meet the conditions for a Weekender Return and the return journey is from Kings Cross. If the return journey is after 0905 from Euston, there is no more to pay.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks John. SSR it is. I am also a bit more clear on excesses. One more question will east coast excess on the train if needed or must this be done in advance? I am asking this just because east coast imply they can only sell full open tickets on board, which is fair enough if the chance existed to excess before travel.

 

[John @ home]

Thanks John. SSR it is. I am also a bit more clear on excesses. One more question will east coast excess on the train if needed or must this be done in advance? I am asking this just because east coast imply they can only sell full open tickets on board, which is fair enough if the chance existed to excess before travel.

East Coast will sell an Excess Fare ticket in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage on the train. The problem may be getting to the train.

There are no automatic barriers at Kings Cross, but it is common for up to 6 ticket inspectors to check tickets on the platform and to prevent access without a ticket valid for that train. Given the length of queues common at Kings Cross travel centre, a passenger sent there to excess their ticket may well miss their train.

It I were returning to Stirling using the return half of a Stirling - London SSR and I missed the 1400 from Kings Cross, first I would try to catch

1430 Kings Cross - Newcastle 1726 East Coast
1737 Newcastle - Edinburgh 1903 CrossCountry
1902 or 1933 Edinburgh - Stirling 1953 or 2023 ScotRail

then

1435 Kings Cross - Doncaster 1608 Leeds train East Coast
1617 Doncaster - Newcastle 1750 CrossCountry
1843 Newcastle - Edinburgh 2012 CrossCountry
2033 Edinburgh - Stirling 2123 ScotRail

then

1530 Euston - Glasgow Central 1958 Virgin
2041 Glasgow Queen Street - Stirling 2107 ScotRail

None of these would incur an Excess Fare.

 

[Failed Unit]

East Coast will sell an Excess Fare ticket in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage on the train. The problem may be getting to the train.

There are no automatic barriers at Kings Cross, but it is common for up to 6 ticket inspectors to check tickets on the platform and to prevent access without a ticket valid for that train. Given the length of queues common at Kings Cross travel centre, a passenger sent there to excess their ticket may well miss their train.

It I were returning to Stirling using the return half of a Stirling - London SSR and I missed the 1400 from Kings Cross, first I would try to catch then thenNone of these would incur an Excess Fare.

If the 1430 was used to get to Newcastle, would you be able to change onto the 1500 at Newcastle if the XC service was missed? I know it may seem a stupid question as you would have a ticket with the 1430's stamp on it so you can't have been on the 1500 since KX. My understanding is the restriction only applies where you join the train so someone using the 1000 on a SRR can break there journey and continue to Edinburgh on any train North, is this correct?

 

[John @ home]

If the 1430 was used to get to Newcastle, would you be able to change onto the 1500 at Newcastle if the XC service was missed?

A strict interpretation of the Restriction is that you woukd not be allowed to join the 1500 anywhere on its journey.

Return Travel - by any train scheduled to DEPART:
LONDON TERMINALS (except as shown below): Between 0929 and 1457 inclusive & at or after 1859. Also allowed at or after 1815 on Fridays only.

The Restriction seems to apply to the train for the whole of its journey.

I know it may seem a stupid question

It's not a stupid question. It's a relevant and intelligent one.

you would have a ticket with the 1430's stamp on it so you can't have been on the 1500 since KX

I don't think it's relevant whether you have been on the train since Kings X or not, but this can not necessarily be determined from a mark on the ticket. Some EC ticket examiners do indeed leave an imprint including the train ID. Others punch a hole in the shape of a star, or an elephant, or other things. One has a punch which leaves a hole in the shape of a Christmas tree, but uses this only in December.

My understanding is the restriction only applies where you join the train so someone using the 1000 on a SRR can break there journey and continue to Edinburgh on any train North, is this correct?

No, that's not my understanding. That's why my suggestions in post #5 carefully avoid trains which leave Kings X between 1458 and 1858.

If I were in Newcastle and wanted to join the 1500 from Kings X with this ticket, I would wait at the west end of the relevant platform and speak to the incoming guard a few minutes before the train arrived (the crew changes at Newcastle). I would say I had broken my journey and ask if it was OK to resume it on this train with this ticket. If the guard agreed, I would then be following instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff. If the guard demurred, I would wait for the next XC service.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks john. Nice to see it is all simple. Strange really as I know the are trying to balance loadings but if you got on the 1730 ex Kings Cross after a break you would probably have a whole coach to yourself.

 

[John @ home]

I know the are trying to balance loadings

I no longer believe that the train companies are trying to balance loadings. They are trying to maximise revenue.

This leads to overcrowding on trains immediately before and after peak restrictions, and some relatively empty trains during the peak.