Williams Review: what would you like to see happen?

[geoffk]

Any new system should put an end to ORCATS raiding, e.g. TPE running between Newcastle and Edinburgh, and walk-on "single operator" tickets. Also any future open access operations should comply with the principle of being "not primarily abstractive". If the Govt is taking the financial risk, then train operators can't be left to "do their own thing". Removing civil servants from any role in specifying timetables and train design would also be good.

 

[John R]

If a countrywide series of concessions with the govt taking the financial risk is the answer then maybe it would make sense to have one unified branding, with the company running each concession as a footnote. Similarly we could have one unified colour scheme.
Maybe the branding could reflect the national nature of the railways, and what it does. Something like “British Rail” for example. For a colour scheme, best to choose something that isn’t connected to any of the existing franchises - maybe a nice two tone blue and grey would look appropriate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

"National Rail" with the double-arrow-in-circle seems a well-established brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the other thread:

Hmm. Need to think about whether I approve of this or not! … in a local context for me, my immediate thoughts are re the Cowley branch line in Oxford, and which approach might work well.

Pro: Oxford(shire) seem to want it to happen, and with the power devolved locally maybe it might happen more quickly if a local metro organisation were to be formed and had authority to reopen the route and operate the services.

Cons: Chiltern already have the trains and know how to run a railway, and indeed how to work to upgrade one for passenger use (with the EverGreen projects) and so it might happen more quickly with their expertise and experience directly applied (with them then running the services) than with a separate new "local metro" organisation. Where does the money and expertise come from for a local metro organisation to operate the route? How could integration with Chiltern / GWR / EastWestRail work as well as if one of those operators ran the line?

This kind of concept has been used to reasonably good effect in Germany - effectively "microfranchises". A UK example that might work would be something like the West Lancashire Lines - that is, having a "TOC" that just handles Ormskirk-Preston and Colne-Blackpool South. As long as ticketing was a national or PTE/ITA matter I can see how that might work - local views, local branding etc (in Germany the ticketing on this kind of line would normally sit with the local Verkehrsverbund). The downside is that it makes it easier to close stuff.

Another fairly solid self-contained service group is Manchester Airport to Barrow/Cumbrian Coast and Windermere, possibly including the Morecambe/Heysham locals if there's nowhere else sensible for them to go.

I guess the "commuter services for cities" bit is using Merseyrail's reasonably successful example? The trouble is that Northern isn't like that, and isn't really going to fit well with being that in most cases. That said, there are certainly a number of relatively self contained Manchester area lines which could be farmed off into something like a "Metrolink Rail" or whatever you'd call it - the Atherton line, Rose Hill turnbacks (and possibly even services out to New Mills but less so the Hope Valley locals), Hadfield/Glossop, the Airport-S-Bahn[1] and possibly a few others if it was allowed outside the GM boundaries in the manner of Merseyrail (e.g. if the CLC local service was split back up at Warrington C).

[1] I'm being deliberately provocative here, mostly in jest - @Bantamzen

 

[Meerkat]

Any new system should put an end to ORCATS raiding, e.g. TPE running between Newcastle and Edinburgh, and walk-on "single operator" tickets

More of the latter reduces the effect of the former! Bit odd to want to get rid of something that motivates operators to run the best/cheapest service.....

Removing civil servants from any role in specifying timetables and train design would also be good.

SRA mk2 would still be civil servants and you need to be careful that decreasing “political interference” means a loss of political control over the spending of public money.

This kind of concept has been used to reasonably good effect in Germany - effectively "microfranchises". A UK example that might work would be something like the West Lancashire Lines - that is, having a "TOC" that just handles Ormskirk-Preston and Colne-Blackpool South

That would seem too small to me. I fancy a LanCumbria Rail including the Northern Connects viaPreston (not sure about Blackpool-York though) plus all locals in Lancashire and Cumbria that aren’t part of Merseyrail or GM metro areas.
Are there any decent English summaries of the German system? I am curious about the size of their concessions (train km and fleet sizes) vs our TOCs/subTOCs, and the transfers (they don’t seem to keep the stock or the staff??)

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would seem too small to me. I fancy a LanCumbria Rail including the Northern Connects viaPreston (not sure about Blackpool-York though) plus all locals in Lancashire and Cumbria that aren’t part of Merseyrail or GM metro areas.
Are there any decent English summaries of the German system? I am curious about the size of their concessions (train km and fleet sizes) vs our TOCs/subTOCs, and the transfers (they don’t seem to keep the stock or the staff??)

I don't know about summaries but maybe start with Wiki?

They indeed don't keep stock or staff. It's sometimes leased and sometimes owned by the tendering authority which is usually a Bundesland (federal state, so a bit like England/Wales/Scotland doing it). Germany doesn't have TUPE, it's purely a British thing[1], so the staff indeed lose their jobs if it ends, though obviously already-trained drivers[2] will tend to find a new job with the new operator anyway.

One effect of that is that there was recently a collapse of one of the small operators which meant no service for a number of weeks until the mess was sorted out. Unlike buses it isn't easy for someone else just to come in and take over.

[1] Which surprised me, I've always thought it was an EU thing but apparently not.
[2] A lot of it is DOO. Germany has had rural DOO for years, urban and long-train DOO is much more recent there outside of S-Bahnen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would seem too small to me. I fancy a LanCumbria Rail including the Northern Connects viaPreston (not sure about Blackpool-York though) plus all locals in Lancashire and Cumbria that aren’t part of Merseyrail or GM metro areas.

Blackpool-York would probably fit TPE, perhaps using the spare 185s there instead of Liv-Notts.

I fear "Lancumbria Rail" would be underfunded and soon become subject to cuts, even if the idea of a small operator using exclusively Class 195s and 331s (if the former can be cleared for the Cumbrian Coast) looks quite an attractive proposition.

 

[markymark2000]

For a Microfranchise, look at the North East section of Northern. That would be decent as it's kind of out of the main area for Northern so a micro franchise there might work.

I would like to see less silly long routes which have little-no purpose and move routes about to operators which now make a little bit more sense.
For example give Bristol to Portsmouth runs. From Southampton to Portsmouth it's electrified so should that really run with an EMU. Southampton to Bristol should be under SWR as I think it just fits their network better with them already running at both ends of the line, it just acts as a connector then for their network. Also rid Brighton trips as I don't think they would be used much, it would make a lot more sense to have them being ran by an EMU either changing at Southampton or Portsmouth.
Some more Open Access operators working with the main operators would be good like the Stourbridge Shuttle line. Ran as OA but has WMT branding and works as part of the main network. Island Line, Lymington Branch and Barton to Cleethorpes is where I could see this approach working maybe. Very locally ran can improve passenger numbers and make passengers happier. Why not do that if it can be done.
Thirdly, stop putting in silly TSRs for operators to stop at stations they would never normally call at. TPE between Doncaster and Scunthorpe this is aimed at but surely there are other examples. Just put an extra service in the primary operators TSR.
Finally, have a national RRB database and put everything though 1 system. I say this because it was well noted a while back about how some Rail Replacement firms were taking their time (to put it nicely) to pay the bus operators. Also, the more people on the database, the more cheaper the tenders might be (as more competition makes prices cheaper) and it means TOCs can't be as biased towards their own companies therefore profiting twice. Arriva using Arriva buses or First using First Travel Group to arrange the RRBs.

For stations, I would like to see 2 things happen.
firstly for PTAs to be offered the chance to take on the stations (as Merseytravel heavily invest in the station but feel they don't get much back from them)
Secondly, give control of the stations to the main operator. Not only are some stations managed by companies who don't even serve the stations but other stations are managed not by the main operator (Alnmouth and Chester-Le-Street come to mind).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Stourbridge Shuttle isn't open access, it's a subcontracted operation.

 

[markymark2000]

The Stourbridge Shuttle isn't open access, it's a subcontracted operation.

I thought it was open access. Sorry.

That sort of working relationship then where lines similar to the ones mentioned are sub contracted out where the sub contractor could vastly improve the reliability, decrease the costs or increase passenger numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it was open access. Sorry.

That sort of working relationship then where lines similar to the ones mentioned are sub contracted out where the sub contractor could vastly improve the reliability, decrease the costs or increase passenger numbers.

True. In a way it's sort of a microfranchise (about as small as could be!) managed by the main West Midlands Trains franchise. It receives subsidy, which OA wouldn't.

 

[markymark2000]

True. In a way it's sort of a microfranchise (about as small as could be!) managed by the main West Midlands Trains franchise. It receives subsidy, which OA wouldn't.

I admit I based it off Wiki which says PreMetroOps is an OA operator.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't know about summaries but maybe start with Wiki?

They indeed don't keep stock or staff. It's sometimes leased and sometimes owned by the tendering authority which is usually a Bundesland (federal state, so a bit like England/Wales/Scotland doing it). Germany doesn't have TUPE, it's purely a British thing[1], so the staff indeed lose their jobs if it ends, though obviously already-trained drivers[2] will tend to find a new job with the new operator anyway.

One effect of that is that there was recently a collapse of one of the small operators which meant no service for a number of weeks until the mess was sorted out. Unlike buses it isn't easy for someone else just to come in and take over.

[1] Which surprised me, I've always thought it was an EU thing but apparently not.
[2] A lot of it is DOO. Germany has had rural DOO for years, urban and long-train DOO is much more recent there outside of S-Bahnen.

Last time I searched there Wiki didn’t really have what I was looking for - ie an idea of the size of the concessions in comparison to our services.
The lack of TUPE is a surprise considering that it’s apparently generally so hard to get rid of staff in Germany (and the squealing that we only have employment laws because of the EU....but let’s not go there!). Are they just made redundant when DB lose a contract then on fixed term contracts?
Wonder whether they give provisional contracts pre bid decision - wages are one of the biggest costs so to not know how much you will have to pay to get enough drivers would make bidding tricky (unless there is a standard drivers pay deal across the industry??)
Binning all the staff and only rehiring the good ones would give franchises a chance to really make a difference but I can’t see it going down too well here!!