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Should most flights within Europe be stopped?

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AlbertBeale

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #2 originally in this thread.

It’s also a business destination.

However it’s just not going to happen. To put it into context, Paris - Barcelona direct is about an hour quicker than London - Barcelona would be IF the Montpellier - Perpignan LGV is built (and the latest estimate is that it won’t be complete until 2038); and 2 how urs quicker than the return journey.

There are around 20 flights a day between the cities - and two trains. Those trains presominantly serve The towns and cities on the south coast from Nîmes to Perpignan. Barcelona is a worthwhile extension. Clearly I’d don’t have the passenger numbers, but I’d be surprised if there were more than 100 end to end passengers per train. Even though the Londo;market is bigger, it’s not that much bigger, and that sort of number is simply not viable.

The only chance of it happening is if he U.K. joins Schengen and/or drops all the security checks such that the train can be used for domestic journeys on the continent.

Not "the only chance" - the situation will change if most flights are stopped within Europe, which they need to be.
 
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Peter Kelford

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ot "the only chance" - the situation will change if most flights are stopped within Europe, which they need to be.

I don't understand why the environmental lobby is so keen on 'stop flights'. Planes pollute, but then they take up to 800 people in one go. If a reasonable 150-person flight was cancelled, some would take their cars no doubt, or partially drive (e.g. a London to the Balaerics flight, replaced by the train to the South of France, car to Spain and then another flight on a less fuel-efficient plane). Without the introduction of 200km/h sleeper trains (which inevitably run a huge loss for a good few years first), a hyperloop (I don't think this is too practical) or electric flight (far away yet), flights are the most practical solution, especially for business travellers. Leisure travellers will fly EasyJet/Ryanair for the time being. BA isn't exactly helping cut leisure flights as their service is of the same standard (pay for everything) but more expensive, thus turning customers towards LCCs and ULCCs.
 

AlbertBeale

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I don't understand why the environmental lobby is so keen on 'stop flights'.

Hmmm - self-defence of our species?

But they won’t be.

Indeed - I fear they won't be. But I also fear that within a generation or two the planet will have gone past various tipping points and our species will no longer have much hope of a tolerably habitable planet.
 

JamesT

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which plane model has this capacity?

It was a proposed layout for an all-Economy Airbus A380 that carries 840. Currently the most densely seated version is Emirates' 2-class which carries 615.
 

mmh

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I'm all for being more environmentally responsible, but I don't buy into what I'd term climate alarmism. Arbitrarily banning flights or taxing them out of the reach of people would be to our disadvantage not benefit. Mass transport has on the whole been a good thing economically and socially.

Wholesale de-industrialisation of the sort desired by extremists of the like of Extinction Rebellion would be massively destructive. I wish fewer people would unquestioningly accept that sort of stance and rationally think of the consequences.
 

Aictos

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Banning flights is a knee jerk reaction and not a sensible suggestion for example, British Airways/Iberia operate a long haul aircraft between Madrid and London for the cargo capacity using the aircraft in what would be down time sitting around.

Unless of course the answer is more HGVs across Europe?

Now where I fully support more journeys to be done by rail including cargo and passenger, we do have to be realistic about how we achieve those goals.

And High Speed Sleepers isn’t the answer before anyone says anything!
 

AlbertBeale

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I'm all for being more environmentally responsible, but I don't buy into what I'd term climate alarmism. Arbitrarily banning flights or taxing them out of the reach of people would be to our disadvantage not benefit. Mass transport has on the whole been a good thing economically and socially.

Wholesale de-industrialisation of the sort desired by extremists of the like of Extinction Rebellion would be massively destructive. I wish fewer people would unquestioningly accept that sort of stance and rationally think of the consequences.

Getting rid of most flights within Europe isn't deindustrialisation. Though some industries are destructive and we'd be better off if they were to disappear!

"Business as usual" isn't compatible with being "environmentally responsible".

Current human population numbers, with current levels of consumption, are without doubt beyond the carrying capacity of our ecosystem. It's an uncomfortable truth, but nevertheless a truth.
 

markymark2000

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Banning flights could do some good but are we not then just cramming more people onto our already congested road and rail networks?

Until we have capacity on either of them, I don't think banning flights would be ok. Discouraging them though on routes which duplicate train lines however could be a good idea.
 

coppercapped

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Bangladesh is currently building two coal-fired power stations.
The emerging middle classes in India, China and other countries in the near and far east are becoming more mobile and buying cars. More and more electrical generating capacity is being added - not all of it in places where wind farms and solar energy work well.

There are lots of people in these areas - as well as in South America where population pressures demand more farmland for food production and as a result large areas of forest in the Amazon basin are being felled.

It would seem to me that what you are really suggesting in your sentence:
Current human population numbers, with current levels of consumption, are without doubt beyond the carrying capacity of our ecosystem.
is a reduction in the world's population in order to enable you to maintain a comfortable standard of life. Thomas Robert Malthus got here 200 years ago.

Proposing banning flights in Europe is greenwash of the most pernicious kind - you have made no attempt whatsoever to judge its effectiveness in the global scheme of things or even the social effects of increasing transaction costs. It is virtue signalling - a kneejerk reaction with no idea of whether it will be effective or not.

None of this should be taken as suggesting that everything in the garden is lovely - it clearly isn't. But having a bee in your bonnet about flights within Europe will not help a rational discussion about how we come to terms with climate change. And it's not as if climate change is new - climate and weather effects are almost certainly behind the collapse of the Ancient Egyptian empire and four hundred years later of the Roman Empire as grain supplies dwindled. The 'Völkerwanderung' of the Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Saxons, Huns and others also seems to be interlinked with changes in climate and weather.

The climate has always changed and it always will, whether natural or influenced by man. The best we can do is learn to live with it.
 

AlbertBeale

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Bangladesh is currently building two coal-fired power stations.
The emerging middle classes in India, China and other countries in the near and far east are becoming more mobile and buying cars. More and more electrical generating capacity is being added - not all of it in places where wind farms and solar energy work well.

There are lots of people in these areas - as well as in South America where population pressures demand more farmland for food production and as a result large areas of forest in the Amazon basin are being felled.

It would seem to me that what you are really suggesting in your sentence:

is a reduction in the world's population in order to enable you to maintain a comfortable standard of life. Thomas Robert Malthus got here 200 years ago.

Proposing banning flights in Europe is greenwash of the most pernicious kind - you have made no attempt whatsoever to judge its effectiveness in the global scheme of things or even the social effects of increasing transaction costs. It is virtue signalling - a kneejerk reaction with no idea of whether it will be effective or not.

None of this should be taken as suggesting that everything in the garden is lovely - it clearly isn't. But having a bee in your bonnet about flights within Europe will not help a rational discussion about how we come to terms with climate change. And it's not as if climate change is new - climate and weather effects are almost certainly behind the collapse of the Ancient Egyptian empire and four hundred years later of the Roman Empire as grain supplies dwindled. The 'Völkerwanderung' of the Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Saxons, Huns and others also seems to be interlinked with changes in climate and weather.

The climate has always changed and it always will, whether natural or influenced by man. The best we can do is learn to live with it.

Yes - in most parts of the world the damage to the ecosystem is increasing (and that doesn't only include countries far away!). All the more reason then to do whatever we can and set an example.

Unfortunately for all of us, climate change - and its likely effects - are now on a scale that is unprecedented; if even some of the possible tipping points happen, then it might not be something we can "learn to live with". I do understand the temptation to stay in denial about this; but better to bite the bullet and make more bearable changes quickly now, rather than have much more cataclysmic changes forced on us in the coming decades.

In terms of my "comfortable standard of life", we all have different definitions of what's comfortable. Many people don't think my lifestyle "comfortable"; there will be others in some part of the world who consider it luxurious. In terms of Malthus, etc, and "bees in my bonnet", all I can say is that I don't call for other people to do things I'm not prepared to do myself (such as not having children, not eating meat, not flying, etc etc).
 

randyrippley

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At the moment ALL flights should be grounded in an attempt to block the Wuhan Flu...….
but I guess if you're one of those who think the planet is overpopulated then you'd want to increase transmission rates so banning flights is the last thing you want
 

AlbertBeale

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At the moment ALL flights should be grounded in an attempt to block the Wuhan Flu...….
but I guess if you're one of those who think the planet is overpopulated then you'd want to increase transmission rates so banning flights is the last thing you want

I guess no-one thinks that those hoping for a reduction on the planet's population have any interest in hastening the end of those currently living! In terms of "thinking" the planet is overpopulated - well, at current average consumption levels it is overpopulated in the sense that we're beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of one planet. We could rapidly and significantly "level down" consumption per head of all the better-off people (like Brits), and maintain the current global population; that might save the ecosystem. Or we could have globally more equal consumption levels at somewhere not too far below the current average British level, together with a significant winding down of global population; that also might save the ecosystem.

But as it is, the numbers don't add up. (Or, in fact, multiply well.)
 

Peter Kelford

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which plane model has this capacity?

An A380 in high-density configuration. You will note the caveat up to.

I'm all for being more environmentally responsible, but I don't buy into what I'd term climate alarmism. Arbitrarily banning flights or taxing them out of the reach of people would be to our disadvantage not benefit. Mass transport has on the whole been a good thing economically and socially.

Wholesale de-industrialisation of the sort desired by extremists of the like of Extinction Rebellion would be massively destructive. I wish fewer people would unquestioningly accept that sort of stance and rationally think of the consequences.

I agree here. This is what society is like these days. 'School Strikes' only serve not to educate children, and the climate protests which block major arteries and train stations cause pollution. If protestors glued themselves to trains, then trains will become less reliable and will more people will drive. Cycle paths (Cycle Superhighway) have a similar effect in their current state, which is to create more congestion at busy arteries (try driving the Lancaster Gate gyratory) and a car driving quickly is less polluting than a car stopping and starting.

Some of the more hard-line claims only serve to discredit the environmental movement, like Veganism and a total stop of flights. Sometimes, this behaviour is even counterproductive. To clarify this, I am referring to comments like 'I'm not a vegan, I don't want to be a vegan, so I can't to my bit for the environment' or 'I'm a businessman, I can't not fly, so there's no point in me caring about the environment'.
 

Bantamzen

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I don't understand why the environmental lobby is so keen on 'stop flights'. Planes pollute, but then they take up to 800 people in one go. If a reasonable 150-person flight was cancelled, some would take their cars no doubt, or partially drive (e.g. a London to the Balaerics flight, replaced by the train to the South of France, car to Spain and then another flight on a less fuel-efficient plane). Without the introduction of 200km/h sleeper trains (which inevitably run a huge loss for a good few years first), a hyperloop (I don't think this is too practical) or electric flight (far away yet), flights are the most practical solution, especially for business travellers. Leisure travellers will fly EasyJet/Ryanair for the time being. BA isn't exactly helping cut leisure flights as their service is of the same standard (pay for everything) but more expensive, thus turning customers towards LCCs and ULCCs.

At the risk of being controversial, oh stuff it I am being controversial, flight-shaming is the current trend among the virtue signaller brigade. Yes flying is generally more polluting per journey than other modes, but then most people take only a very small number of flights in comparison to say driving, so its not nearly the whole of the picture. But it's seen as an easy win for people who want to be seen to be doing something, even if that something is very small & doesn't really impact their lives too much (a critical facet for some I have met).

The number one problem on this planet is energy production, something like 43% of all our energy worldwide is still generated by coal I believe I read somewhere. How we generate, consume, and most importantly store energy is the critical issue here, and what both lobbyists & governments should be prioritising rather than targeting fringe benefits. Also up there, and a pet peeve of mine is food waste, which accounts for between 30-40% of all food production in the industrialised world. Sort those two out in the next few decades and you'll smash the carbon targets.
 

Peter Kelford

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The number one problem on this planet is energy production, something like 43% of all our energy worldwide is still generated by coal I believe I read somewhere. How we generate, consume, and most importantly store energy is the critical issue here, and what both lobbyists & governments should be prioritising rather than targeting fringe benefits. Also up there, and a pet peeve of mine is food waste, which accounts for between 30-40% of all food production in the industrialised world. Sort those two out in the next few decades and you'll smash the carbon targets.

Hopefully China will not renew their coal power plants as and when they come up for renewal.
 

Bantamzen

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Hopefully China will not renew their coal power plants as and when they come up for renewal.

China might see nuclear / sustainable energy development as an investment if they continue to expand globally, so it is possible. However I am a firm believer that the UK shouldn't be sitting around waiting for everyone else to development sustainable energy production and storage. We have the kind of climate perfect for designing, testing & building a variety of solutions. We ought to be a world leader in this field really.
 

Peter Kelford

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We have the kind of climate perfect for designing, testing & building a variety of solutions. We ought to be a world leader in this field really.

But not the sort of government or citizens willing to facilitate it. Research has no apparent profit when undertaken. Any possible profit only is gained once successful...
 

Bantamzen

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But not the sort of government or citizens willing to facilitate it. Research has no apparent profit when undertaken. Any possible profit only is gained once successful...

And herein lies our real problem, and what lobbyists should be focusing on instead of telling people off for going abroad on their jollies.
 

Howardh

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It was a proposed layout for an all-Economy Airbus A380 that carries 840.
How many routes could that fly which would guarantee at least (say) 750 one every flight? No good having a huge plane which is always half-empty.
From the UK probably an American destination?
 

Journeyman

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I take quite a lot of short-haul flights, but it's far too simplistic to say that I shouldn't do it, and that I'm more polluting than other people who don't.

I drive as infrequently as possible, and do a lot of my local travel by public transport. I have solar panels on my house, and I carefully optimise my use of energy-heavy appliances to make the most of the energy I generate. I buy my electricity and gas from a renewable supplier. I buy as much as I can secondhand and take great care to use appliances and gadgets until they break.

I'm not saying I'm any sort of hero for this, I'm just saying that whether you fly regularly or not is not the whole picture, and I do feel I'm doing things to offset the flights.
 

coppercapped

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Yes - in most parts of the world the damage to the ecosystem is increasing (and that doesn't only include countries far away!). All the more reason then to do whatever we can and set an example.
One reads in some media that the NHS is the envy of the world. Really? How many other countries have adopted the same system? IT has set an example which practically no other country has followed.

How much notice do other people ever take if you 'set an example'? At best some might notice, some might agree, many might think that your action is irrelevant but how many will copy you? Very few. It's the same with countries.

Unfortunately for all of us, climate change - and its likely effects - are now on a scale that is unprecedented;
The Earth's climate has changed throughout history: in the last 650,000 years there have been seven cycles of glacial advance and retreat and the sudden end of the last ice age about 12,000 years ago marks the beginning of the modern climate era. Most of these climate changes are attributed to very small variations in Earth’s orbit that change the incident flux of solar energy. I am not denying that the current warming trend is serious because it is extremely likely (I have read that is greater than 95% probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century.

Even earlier, from the Cambrian period, some 450 million years ago, itis known from the fossil record that there have been five major extinctions of life and several minor ones. Common features were changes in the climate and in some cases levels of carbon dioxide and oxygen in the atmosphere.

So, yes, the current change could be difficult/disastrous/uncomfortable (to a middle class life style) but, no, is is not unprecedented.

if even some of the possible tipping points happen, then it might not be something we can "learn to live with". I do understand the temptation to stay in denial about this; but better to bite the bullet and make more bearable changes quickly now, rather than have much more cataclysmic changes forced on us in the coming decades.
It is clear that increasing use of fossil fuels for the last 100 years and more has significantly contributed to the the currently measured temperature increase. The question is: 'do aircraft or trains on intra-European journeys generate more carbon dioxide, and if so, by how much?

The assumption is that it is aircraft - but is this true? What follows is a 'back of the envelope' calculation.

An Airbus A320 weighs some 95tonnes at take-off and takes an hour and a bit to get from London to Munich and carries around 190 people. It needs a couple of miles of concrete at each end.

A ICE-sized train from London to Munich will have a mass of some 400 tonnes, would carry some 400 people and take around 10 hours routing via Paris (see www.seat61). The 'hotel power' consumption alone for this period is considerable, ignoring that for traction. Schlepping that 400 tonnes at 300kph requires an installed power of some 8MW. Assuming that full power is needed for 2 hours of a ten hour journey and half power for the other eight gives a total consumption of 48MWh.

As the crow flies it is nearly 1000 km from London to Munich - for a double track railway using 60kg/metre rail that is a quarter of a million tonnes of rail which needs to be replaced every 25 years. That's 10,000 tonnes of new rail - with all the CO2 released during its production - every year.

The fuel burn rate of an aircraft is highest at take-off when moving slowly - the engines are throttled back after a couple of minutes at a couple of thousand feet. Above this height climb power is set until cruising altitude is reached after about 20 minutes. Cruise power is used for some 30 minutes on a London - Munich flight until the aircraft starts to descend 20 minutes before touchdown with the engines at flight idle. Fuel consumption for a sector such as this is around 4.5 to 5 tonnes depending on load, wind, routing and altitude. Kerosine has an energy density of around 43 megajoules/kg.

In other words, using these figures, the aircraft 'consumes' some 215,000MJ of energy and the train 173,000MJ. This is very much a 'back of the envelope' calculation which takes no account of passenger loading or intermediate journeys in the case of the train - but it does show that the two values are not that dissimilar. And the train benefits from all that embedded energy used in the construction of its route over the last couple of hundred years.

And don't come with the argument that electricity can be generated using renewable sources. It might be possible in the future but at the moment much electricity is still produced - and will be produced for the next ten to fifteen years - from lignite in Germany which emits high levels of carbon dioxide. Under these circumstances the difference between the CO2 emissions from an internal flight and from train travel, in Germany at least, may not be as great as people assume.

It is not clear to me that banning internal flights in Europe would have a significant difference on the levels of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere.
In terms of my "comfortable standard of life", we all have different definitions of what's comfortable. Many people don't think my lifestyle "comfortable"; there will be others in some part of the world who consider it luxurious. In terms of Malthus, etc, and "bees in my bonnet", all I can say is that I don't call for other people to do things I'm not prepared to do myself (such as not having children, not eating meat, not flying, etc etc).
 
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Ianno87

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A sledgehammer solution isn't the right approach; the 'problem' with flying is that it's become far too a 'disposable' activity ("lets go to Barcelona for the weekend because it's cheap")....but accessible to far more people at the same time (which I'm talking as a good thing for social inclusion).

I think the cost of flights probably (via Taxes or whatever) just needs to better reflect its 'real' cost in environmental terms. Same for road travel (I learned the other day that in Japan the cost of road tolls on a motorway pretty much match the equivalent Shinkansen fares in many cases).
 

mmh

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How many routes could that fly which would guarantee at least (say) 750 one every flight? No good having a huge plane which is always half-empty.
From the UK probably an American destination?

Exactly. There's a reason why the A380 has turned out to be a commercial failure. Airlines don't want huge 4 engine planes any more, they prefer smaller 2 engine planes like the 777 and A330 for long haul flights.
 

Peter Kelford

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Exactly. There's a reason why the A380 has turned out to be a commercial failure. Airlines don't want huge 4 engine planes any more, they prefer smaller 2 engine planes like the 777 and A330 for long haul flights.

In the past few years, the emphasis has turned from large carriers offering hub and spoke offerings (in railway terms: a person living in Bristol takes the train to London then takes another train out to get to York, going via a hub) to more, sometimes smaller, carriers offering point-to-point lines, often 'long and thin' (long-distance and relatively low passenger numbers). The credit here goes in no small part to the 787 and A350. New planes are considerably more fuel-efficient which saves airlines money as well as making viable long-distance routes of upwards of 12 hours. Singapore to New York is a prime example, two city pairs on essentially opposite sides of the globe, linked now by flight.
 

telstarbox

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There's another side to the "cheap city break" coin. I remember living in Manchester around 2012 and meeting lots of young Spanish people who'd come over to work here, as unemployment in Spain was very high at the time. This wouldn't have been practical for them without cheap European flights and the same would have applied to the states which joined the EU in 2004.
 

Bantamzen

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A sledgehammer solution isn't the right approach; the 'problem' with flying is that it's become far too a 'disposable' activity ("lets go to Barcelona for the weekend because it's cheap")....but accessible to far more people at the same time (which I'm talking as a good thing for social inclusion).

I think the cost of flights probably (via Taxes or whatever) just needs to better reflect its 'real' cost in environmental terms. Same for road travel (I learned the other day that in Japan the cost of road tolls on a motorway pretty much match the equivalent Shinkansen fares in many cases).

Simply taxing flights is the wrong approach, because governments get used to the idea of extra revenue, & taxpayers see it as another way to screw them over. I'm all for paying for the cost of carbon offset, but it should be done so that the carbon is actually offset, not just money dropped into the Treasury. Some airlines do now offer the opportunity for passengers to donate to carbon offsetting projects, so the next natural step would be to make that a compulsory requirement on booking pages, and eventually to make the donations a compulsory part of the ticket price.

So passengers can rest assured that a) The money they pay will actually make a difference, and b) the amount they pay will reflect the kind of flight they are taking, the aircraft used etc, instead of some generic Whitehall generated figure. Of course this would need complete transparency & standardisation with the carbon calculation, plus accurate data from airlines on craft type. Because currently websites that offer these services use some questionable calculations, leading to massive differences in carbon offset cost from flight to flight. Recently I looked up the cost of an offset from Leeds-Bradford to Malaga return, for two people on a 737-800 & sites suggested anywhere from around £7 to over £50!

Edit: It is also worth noting that this only works where governments make this kind of thing a legal requirement of airlines. Where countries do not, it will always be possible to circumnavigate these processes by using Virtual Private Network's to mask the country you are ordering from. But this would be the same with any formal taxation.
 

Peter Kelford

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Simply taxing flights is the wrong approach, because governments get used to the idea of extra revenue, & taxpayers see it as another way to screw them over.

Almost every traffic fine or control is run on this principle.

b) the amount they pay will reflect the kind of flight they are taking, the aircraft used etc, instead of some generic Whitehall generated figure.
This is a very good idea considering that an old A310 does not have the same pollution levels as the latest A330neo.

Recently I looked up the cost of an offset from Leeds-Bradford to Malaga return, for two people on a 737-800 & sites suggested anywhere from around £7 to over £50!
The idea of 'we plant 10 trees for every 1 we cut down' is actually quite illogical. It involves cutting down a 200-year-old 50ft tree and replacing it with 10 dwarf trees with nowhere near the same level of carbon absorption.
 
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