Connecting Euston and King's Cross after HS2 completion

[jfollows]

I agree with the likely lack of market for the link, but what little of it (the market) exists includes me.

The "back way" walk was especially good when few people knew about it, but I'm not unhappy that it's been advertised a little bit now (I've seen signs). Arriving from Whitstable and leaving from Euston was exceptionally easy when I did it in September.

King's Cross a little more difficult than Saint Pancras of course.

Related, maybe not, I see that Manchester Council is going to promote a "walking route" between Piccadilly and Victoria stations. Presumably along the "back way" that I've been using since 1973, and which is still set up with conflicting junctions with priority to traffic which make it worse to walk than it could be, albeit with a relative lack of other pedestrians.

I agree with the main point above that visitors are unable to understand that any public transport option other than the bus would involve walking further than the direct walking route anyway. Before I moved to London in 1981 I could only get around by using the tube map, and it was something of a revelation to discover walking routes as an alternative.

 

[MarkyT]

I think you're both right to an extent

Besides, many people would be surprised how few people are actually arriving on a train at Euston and departing St P or KX, or vice versa.

Today maybe. There are many customers arriving from the North East and East Midlands at Kings Cross and St Pancras, who can make easy connections today to many destinations in South London and the broader South East via fast Thameslink and South Eastern HS1 domestics, as well as being able to access Continental Eurostar departures directly. These people will end up at Euston instead following HS2, so it seems unfair that a decent pedestrian walking route at least won't be provided for them, as I'm convinced a large number of them, particularly the lightly encumbered short break and business travellers, will soon settle on walking to St Pancras, as their quickest way to catch familiar connections, rather than making wider changes such as crowding onto the tube over to Victoria instead.

Which is precisely why the original HS1-HS2 link was scrapped. There just isn't a big market enough between Birmingham and Manchester to Paris and Brussels to justify it.

A dramatically improved pedestrian link would be far more than just the Continental service link. It would connect all of HS2 with all of Thameslink and all of the SE domestic HS1 network as well. It should be improved and PROMOTED as a quick and convenient way of interchanging between longer distance trains, without requiring a tube transfer. It could also provide a much more attractive way for people living and working in the Kings Cross goods yard development area to access Euston's mooted east side entrance on foot, avoiding major roads.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you're both right to an extent

Today maybe. There are many customers arriving from the North East and East Midlands at Kings Cross and St Pancras, who can make easy connections today to many destinations in South London and the broader South East via fast Thameslink and South Eastern HS1 domestics, as well as being able to access Continental Eurostar departures directly. These people will end up at Euston instead following HS2, so it seems unfair that a decent pedestrian walking route at least won't be provided for them, as I'm convinced a large number of them, particularly the lightly encumbered short break and business travellers, will soon settle on walking to St Pancras, as their quickest way to catch familiar connections, rather than making wider changes such as crowding onto the tube over to Victoria instead.

A dramatically improved pedestrian link would be far more than just the Continental service link. It would connect all of HS2 with all of Thameslink and all of the SE domestic HS1 network as well. It should be improved and PROMOTED as a quick and convenient way of interchanging between longer distance trains, without requiring a tube transfer. It could also provide a much more attractive way for people living and working in the Kings Cross goods yard development area to access Euston's mooted east side entrance on foot, avoiding major roads.

The back route north of the Francis Crick is especially convenient for Thameslink as it land in St Pancras next to their ticket barrier. Far better than going along Euston Road, where quite apart from the noise and pollution it's not particularly obvious how to get into St Pancras at that corner (you can go left to an obscure entrance part way along or to the aforementioned one next to Thameslink, or up the ramp and through the big arch and double back, or probably sneak through the hotel).

A ramp onto Eversholt Street onto this walkway should be an obvious priority, as the step-free route is a narrow footway round the back of the black tower and through the bus station. And it would be good to have some staff with golf carts able to carry people between the stations as part of the assisted travel scheme. In the long term I'm hoping that an eastern entrance to Euston will lead directly towards Phoenix Road.

 

[Bald Rick]

The back route north of the Francis Crick is especially convenient for Thameslink as it land in St Pancras next to their ticket barrier. Far better than going along Euston Road, where quite apart from the noise and pollution it's not particularly obvious how to get into St Pancras at that corner (you can go left to an obscure entrance part way along or to the aforementioned one next to Thameslink, or up the ramp and through the big arch and double back, or probably sneak through the hotel).

A ramp onto Eversholt Street onto this walkway should be an obvious priority, as the step-free route is a narrow footway round the back of the black tower and through the bus station. And it would be good to have some staff with golf carts able to carry people between the stations as part of the assisted travel scheme. In the long term I'm hoping that an eastern entrance to Euston will lead directly towards Phoenix Road.

The best back route is immediately south of the Crick, it’s about a minute or two quicker than Phoenix Rd.

 

[edwin_m]

The best back route is immediately south of the Crick, it’s about a minute or two quicker than Phoenix Rd.

Yes I tried that one last time, although there are some forbidding-looking gates so is it closed off a some times of day? The golf cars might have to follow the road though.

 

[Hadders]

Yes I tried that one last time, although there are some forbidding-looking gates so is it closed off a some times of day? The golf cars might have to follow the road though.

I've never seen the gates closed but they only go across part of the route to the south of the Crick. A golf buggy would still get down easily even if the gates were closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes I tried that one last time, although there are some forbidding-looking gates so is it closed off a some times of day? The golf cars might have to follow the road though.

I’ve been through at (literally) all times of day / week / year and never seen the gates closed.

 

[Sceptre]

If Crossrail 2 is still on the cards for an opening around 2030, a clever person would piggyback on that to provide a travelator within the Euston St Pancras station box. As far as I'm aware, Crossrail 2 intend to have a new ticket hall in St Pancras underneath the Eurostar departure lounge, which is metres away from the subway under Pancras Road to Kings Cross.

It'd probably be cheaper than the Phoenix Road APM proposal too.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If Crossrail 2 is still on the cards for an opening around 2030, a clever person would piggyback on that to provide a travelator within the Euston St Pancras station box. As far as I'm aware, Crossrail 2 intend to have a new ticket hall in St Pancras underneath the Eurostar departure lounge, which is metres away from the subway under Pancras Road to Kings Cross.

It'd probably be cheaper than the Phoenix Road APM proposal too.

Crossrail 2 in 2030?!? More chance of a 2030 opening date for Crossrail 1!

 

[The Ham]

I do wonder if a (say) 100m section of moving walkway in each direction would provide the option of a bit a rest for those who finding the full walk is a bit far?

However by it being a short section the section in each direction needn't be in the same location as each other.

 

[Bald Rick]

If Crossrail 2 is still on the cards for an opening around 2030, a clever person would piggyback on that to provide a travelator within the Euston St Pancras station box. As far as I'm aware, Crossrail 2 intend to have a new ticket hall in St Pancras underneath the Eurostar departure lounge, which is metres away from the subway under Pancras Road to Kings Cross.

It'd probably be cheaper than the Phoenix Road APM proposal too.

Two issues there:

1) Crossrail 2 doesn’t have a station box at Euston / St P. It’s a mined tunnel, and it’s a long way down as it has a lot of tube lines and Thameslink to get under. This is the issue, because the time taken to get down to that level, and back up again, will be quite a deterrent for anyone, especially those with luggage. It would be broadly similar to someone at street level at Moorgate using the Elizabeth Line station to get to Liverpool Street.

2) 2030. To open then, construction would need to have started last year...

 

[MarkyT]

This is the issue, because the time taken to get down to that level, and back up again, will be quite a deterrent for anyone, especially those with luggage. It would be broadly similar to someone at street level at Moorgate using the Elizabeth Line station to get to Liverpool Street.

A deterrent especially if the passenger actually has to go onto one of the potentially crowded platforms to get from one entrance to the other as at Moorgate/Liverpool St with no continuous centre tunnel between the platforms being constructed. Mind you, I don't see so much demand between those two entrances in the City. The most useful additional interchange of the Moorgate end is that between GN inners and Crossrail itself; otherwise it's mainly there to enlarge the catchment area and relieve the entrance at the mainline terminus.

 

[Doomotron]

Personally I'd just build the HS1-HS2 link between Stratford and Old Oak Common. Plus, it would allow for Regional Eurostar to finally happen in a time where Eurostar are looking to expand and the public are becoming more aware of the pollution caused by aeroplanes.

 

[mmh]

I would imagine that if a demand was there, a regular battery free* shuttle bus service would be established between the Euston and St Pancras/KingsCross, - certainly until a permanent fixed link could be built.
* It might be free to passengers possessing transfer tickets with a nominal charge for others.

It would probably need it's own dedicated space otherwise it would be terribly unreliable - traffic between St Pancras and Euston can be far slower than walking, largely due to some awful planning of cycle lanes and related restrictions.

To others, yes it is walkable, but let's stop pretending the stations are next door. It's not a particularly pleasant walk regardless of whether you go along Euston Rd or not, it's awkward and annoying with luggage. If I've got no luggage I might walk, but often I have (the HS2 and HS1 passengers are likely to!) and these days am more likely to jump on a bus. Once I got a taxi. Probably wouldn't bother doing that again!

 

[camflyer]

Personally I'd just build the HS1-HS2 link between Stratford and Old Oak Common. Plus, it would allow for Regional Eurostar to finally happen in a time where Eurostar are looking to expand and the public are becoming more aware of the pollution caused by aeroplanes.

Are Eurostar offering to contribute to the cost of the HS1-2 link?

I'm a big supporter of HS2 and NPR ("HS North") but the link to HS1 was correctly cut as it was very expensive for a small market just to avoid a short connection in London.

 

[mmh]

Personally I'd just build the HS1-HS2 link between Stratford and Old Oak Common. Plus, it would allow for Regional Eurostar to finally happen in a time where Eurostar are looking to expand and the public are becoming more aware of the pollution caused by aeroplanes.

HS2's plans have it full with domestic trains, if they come to fruition there'll be no room for international ones. The immigration and customs and lack of demand problems that killed off the original Regional Eurostar idea still exist.

 

[mmh]

Are Eurostar offering to contribute to the cost of the HS1-2 link?

I'm a big supporter of HS2 and NPR ("HS North") but the link to HS1 was correctly cut as it was very expensive for a small market just to avoid a short connection in London.

One unofficial suggestion was to have HS2 domestic trains running onto HS1 with destinations in Kent. Something like Maidstone to Birmingham.

Feels more practical to me than international trains on HS2. If there was enough demand Eurostar could stop more at Ashford. An already made Interchange without the concerns of transfer between Euston and St Pancras.

If fewer trains needed to terminate at Euston, fewer platforms would be needed and the reportedly problematic and expensive HS2 mouth to Euston might be mitigated.

 

[Doomotron]

One unofficial suggestion was to have HS2 domestic trains running onto HS1 with destinations in Kent. Something like Maidstone to Birmingham.

Feels more practical to me than international trains on HS2. If there was enough demand Eurostar could stop more at Ashford. An already made Interchange without the concerns of transfer between Euston and St Pancras.

If fewer trains needed to terminate at Euston, fewer platforms would be needed and the reportedly problematic and expensive HS2 mouth to Euston might be mitigated.

domestic services into Kent would be much more useful for me than Eurostar. Going into London often adds about an hour onto my journey, so a direct Ashford to Birmingham service, for example, would be better (and would finally give the international platforms at Stratford some use!).

Remember that because it won't be built now doesn't mean it never will be. I fully expect the link to open in my lifetime.

 

[30907]

One unofficial suggestion was to have HS2 domestic trains running onto HS1 with destinations in Kent. Something like Maidstone to Birmingham.

Feels more practical to me than international trains on HS2. If there was enough demand Eurostar could stop more at Ashford. An already made Interchange without the concerns of transfer between Euston and St Pancras.

If fewer trains needed to terminate at Euston, fewer platforms would be needed and the reportedly problematic and expensive HS2 mouth to Euston might be mitigated.

I like the idea in theory, but there would presumably still need to be platforms on the through lines, and the idea of a deep-level HS station has been rejected - or are you suggesting running without a Central London stop?

 

[mmh]

I like the idea in theory, but there would presumably still need to be platforms on the through lines, and the idea of a deep-level HS station has been rejected - or are you suggesting running without a Central London stop?

The (admittedly quite far fetched sounding) suggestion I read - it was linked to on the forum but I can't find it - suggested no link to Euston, instead a tunnel from Old Oak Common to somewhere near Stratford and joining HS1 around there. It had an underground station near Waterloo, and some sidings in east London to turn Waterloo "terminators."

So probably very impractical! I was thinking more simply and running straight onto HS1. As you say though, commuter style services through London without a central London stop would be, err, different...

 

[MarkyT]

It would probably need it's own dedicated space otherwise it would be terribly unreliable - traffic between St Pancras and Euston can be far slower than walking, largely due to some awful planning of cycle lanes and related restrictions.

To others, yes it is walkable, but let's stop pretending the stations are next door. It's not a particularly pleasant walk regardless of whether you go along Euston Rd or not, it's awkward and annoying with luggage. If I've got no luggage I might walk, but often I have (the HS2 and HS1 passengers are likely to!) and these days am more likely to jump on a bus. Once I got a taxi. Probably wouldn't bother doing that again!

So improve the walking route dramatically, and include various free transit options for those who need it... There absolutely no doubt that a good wide well lit dedicated path with good sightlines and signage, not alongside a busy road and devoid of busy road crossings or with clear pedestrian priority, effectively shrinks distance in the mind of the walker. It is the basis of 'space syntax' as a discipline.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I'd just build the HS1-HS2 link between Stratford and Old Oak Common. Plus, it would allow for Regional Eurostar to finally happen in a time where Eurostar are looking to expand and the public are becoming more aware of the pollution caused by aeroplanes.

domestic services into Kent would be much more useful for me than Eurostar. Going into London often adds about an hour onto my journey, so a direct Ashford to Birmingham service, for example, would be better (and would finally give the international platforms at Stratford some use!).

Remember that because it won't be built now doesn't mean it never will be. I fully expect the link to open in my lifetime.

As I've suggested elsewhere, build a Wales and Western High Speed Line which connects at Old Oak Common before running to an outer London hub for the Eastern High Speed Line and then onto Stratford for HS1 (either with direct change to Eurostar services or to run to where there's scope for direct change to Eurostar services).

In doing so avoid the messing around in Central London or the need for a Physical HS2 to HS1 link, whilst still providing a fairly easy change between HS2 and Eurostar services. Whilst it would involve two changes it should be fairly straightforward and in the case of Old Oak Common could even be done by the use of a lift if the East West lines were at a lower level (although that would make it more costly due to building of underground platforms, however you'd need something similar whatever you did).

 

[Bald Rick]

It would probably need it's own dedicated space otherwise it would be terribly unreliable - traffic between St Pancras and Euston can be far slower than walking, largely due to some awful planning of cycle lanes and related restrictions.

To others, yes it is walkable, but let's stop pretending the stations are next door. It's not a particularly pleasant walk regardless of whether you go along Euston Rd or not, it's awkward and annoying with luggage. If I've got no luggage I might walk, but often I have (the HS2 and HS1 passengers are likely to!) and these days am more likely to jump on a bus. Once I got a taxi. Probably wouldn't bother doing that again!

Agreed it’s not next door, but then it’s not that far. I wouldn’t say it’s awkward or annoying with luggage - I do it regular with heavy luggage, most recently 90 minutes ago.

It could also be made a pleasant (and shorter) walk for a lot less cash than building any sort of fixed link or underground walking route.

 

[camflyer]

In terms of a HS1-HS2 link, I thought the "HS4Air" proposal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS4Air) had a lot of merit but it was rejected by the government

 

[Bald Rick]

In terms of a HS1-HS2 link, I thought the "HS4Air" proposal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS4Air) had a lot of merit but it was rejected by the government

That’s because it was fantasy!

 

[mmh]

That’s because it was fantasy!

Yup. I'm sure there was discussion of it on here at the time; one problem with the concept of operating separate airports as one is you'd want people to be able to remain airside otherwise it loses pretty much all its appeal. Plus the disruption caused by any disruption on the railway line would be massive. A small amount of passengers do have to connect from Gatwick to Heathrow for onward flights, e.g. from Jersey. It's not popular, those people would much rather be using a single airport.