Ellesmere Port to Helsby line

[robert2000]

My main point is Stanlow and Thornton Railway station, in which passenger numbers have grown a lot over the past 5 years, only 5 years ago, 40 passengers were to have used this station, last year over 400 used it, so thats over 10 times as many passengers, despite Northern rail not improving the service. The timings are not very good either, I'd use the line a lot more instead of changing at Hooton from Chester if the timings of the trains between Ellesmere Port and Helsby were improved.

 

[northwichcat]

The main problem is now that Northern don't have enough stock to provide a proper service. The trains used on that service get transferred to Oxford Rd to Liverpool services at the busiest periods. The extra 150s that will be cascaded to Northern will replace 156s cascaded to EMT as well as helping to prevent existing services leaving passengers behind due to the train being too full.

 

[robert2000]

So there will be stock available after the chat moss, liverpool/manchester to preston/plackpool lines are electrified, dont forget the metrolink took over a route from northern to rochdale, due to be open in 2/3 years.

 

[First class]

My railway career began on this line looking at ways to better utilise it and producing reports and figures to back up my recommendations.

The problem isn't lack of stock, you could extend Warrington Bank Quay services to it, or indeed you could electrify Ellesmere Port-Helsby. The most cost effective solution (at least in 2008) is actually to run a Liverpool-Hooton via Warrington service.

The figures that you suggest for SNT are actually very low compared to actual usage. It is fairly common for the morning services from Ellesmere Port to be very busy. Usually a class 142 will have at least one full carriage worth of customers. The train crew rarely conduct a ticket check on this line. For over a year I travelled on most of the services on this line, (I also had a partner from Elton so used it for commuting), and most of the conductors who appeared just wanted to know where I was going.

Generally Northern see this line as a bit of a hindrance, they know it could be so much better but are reluctant to do anything with it due to its position, e.g. quite isolated from the rest of the Northern franchise area.

I will provide you with some very good official documents I have relating to this line once I get back from the Pageant of Power tonight!

 

[northwichcat]

So there will be stock available after the chat moss, liverpool/manchester to preston/plackpool lines are electrified, dont forget the metrolink took over a route from northern to rochdale, due to be open in 2/3 years.

That's assuming Manchester-Liverpool goes ahead never mind lines through Bolton and to Blackpool. Liverpool-Manchester is also dependant on units being released from Thameslink. They're too many ifs and buts now there's a new government.

The units released from the Oldham Loop have been deployed on overcrowded Calder Vale services.

 

[robert2000]

Im sure i read somwere that 3rd rail is impossible on that stretch of line, i dont know why though.
My option would be, Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Lime Street via Halton Curve and Liverpool South Parkway. Thats a long term idea, but in the short term just go via Bank Quay station and use your idea of the extensions from lime street which currently terminate at bank quay.
But dont forget Chester and north Wales which are the main reasons Halton curve must be re opened.

 

[northwichcat]

Generally Northern see this line as a bit of a hindrance, they know it could be so much better but are reluctant to do anything with it due to its position, e.g. quite isolated from the rest of the Northern franchise area.

They also have to run trains ECS between Chester and Helsby and get the units to Chester from Manchester using Manchester crews and then run the service using Liverpool crews.

The alternative is Merseyrail take over the line tagging it on to their existing Ellesmere Port service but this would require 3rd rail extension (apparently risky with the chemicals in the area) or dual powered trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

you could extend Warrington Bank Quay services to it,

They don't run in the peaks either to allow a half hourly Victoria to Lime Street via Earlestown service.

 

[Green Lane]

The alternative is Merseyrail take over the line tagging it on to their existing Ellesmere Port service but this would require 3rd rail extension (apparently risky with the chemicals in the area) or dual powered trains.

Indeed, I read somewhere too about electrification being risky.

On one of my hikes, I've walked parallel to the line from Ellesmere Port past Stanlow & Thornton and then Ince & Elton stations and then across Ince marshes to the vicinity of Helsby Hill, although I didn't walk quite all the way to Helsby station itself.

It's a fascinating stretch of line. Runs right through the heart of Shell's rather large Stanlow Oil Refinery complex. I guess with all of those volatile petrochemicals around, there'd be some worry of a risk of fire, ignited by an electrical spark, but really don't know how dangerous it would be in practice, I'm quite sure there's already a whole host of other electrical equipment in the area anyway. The actual refinery itself is off limits to the public for obvious security reasons and there's loads of signs everywhere with "Photography prohibited" on them, right next to the railway track. It's a bit scary really. The main road through the complex. "Oil Sites Road" was closed to public motorised traffic a few years back too.

Clearly with the amount of sidings in the area the line was apparently used to transport petroleum products in the past.

I remember well when the line did have "regular" DMU services via Ellesmere Port to Helsby, but I could kick myself now for never bothering to actually travel on it. I guess I never did have a reason to visit Helsby. Now I'm more interested in train travel etc.. I may still be tempted to go on it, arriving at Helsby at some inconvenient hour, not my usual choice for an area to hike though I admit, the whole area is incredibly industrialised.

 

[9K43]

We worked the Humber Oil Stanlow Gas Tanks for 7 years, using the Warrington/ Helsby Junction to Stanlow route.
According to reports, Stanlow Gas has been shut and lines taken up, and the actual gas tanks have been cut up at Rotherham.
According to my diaries, I worked down to Stanlow over 250 times, over the 7 years it ran.

 

[nedchester]

Every time I sue it (OK about 2 or 3 times a year) I am the only person on the train.

See:
http://nedchester.fotopic.net/p60098413.html


!!!!

 

[robert2000]

its a shame really,
dont northern rail know that if they put more trains on that line then more people will use it.
From chester, that route could be quicker than Merseyrail.

 

[43167]

I did the line towards the back end of last year, covering the afternoon diagram. Full line 1st before covering the 2 intermediate stations. My previous attempt was thwarted by engineering work. Im convinced if there was a better service it would get used.

No problem getting photos at Stanlow station.

 

[robert2000]

i was hoping to get photos at ellesmere port, if i can get both merseyrail and northern train in at the same time, can anyone confirm if that happens in the timetable, cheers.

are we allowed to take pictures or do i have to ask permission incase i take a pic and people are in the picture.

 

[Green Lane]

are we allowed to take pictures or do i have to ask permission incase i take a pic and people are in the picture.

I don't know anything about official policy, as I don't work on the railways. However, for photography, I can't see Ellesmere Port station being any different from any other station TBH. It's on Whitby Road in Ellesmere Port and not actually inside the nearby Stanlow Oil refinery. So should be fine, obviously the common-sense things about not taking close-ups of individuals without asking permission first would no doubt apply equally here as it does anywhere in public.

I would certainly not take any photos on Oil Sites Road itself though (adjacent to Stanlow & Thornton station). As I say there are quite clear signs there to this effect. It's a private road owned by Shell and they've ramped up security measures in recent years due to the generally higher alert status that the country has been on.

There are various brief mentions of it around the web. e.g. buried within this thread:-
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18067&view=next

Stanlow & Thornton station itself I'm honestly unsure about as it is completely surrounded by the refinery. Clearly many enthusiasts have photographed and even videod there as I have seen such photos & videos on the Internet. So as people say it seems on the face of it no problem to take railway-related photos on the property of the railway (as opposed to the refinery).

Personally, with purely innocent intentions, I wouldn't photograph Stanlow & Thornton station because I wouldn't like to be within the refinery area with a camera in my possesion in case I got stopped, particularly in the current climate of paranoia. Again, purely IMHO, I wouldn't advise anyone else to do it either. Last time I was down there, just passing through, I did get a few inquisitive looks from various gatehouse staff and I certainly didn't hang around. Perhaps, it's not so bad if you just hop off a train and then later back on one again, remaining within the station area but I think if you are walking down the main Oil Sites road within the refinery complex, past the staffed gatehouses etc.. you have to be a lot more careful.

Having said that as a rail enthusiast, I am grateful to those who have photographed the station itself or I would never have seen what it looks like from the inside, having only walked past the outside myself.

 

[37372]

I really like this line, it's so industrialised and the scenery makes a change from looking at field after field. I did it a few weeks back and had the train to myself from Ellesmere Port to Warrington, and when chatting with the traincrew I was apparently the only passenger they'd had all afternoon!

As for photting, I would have thought photting on Stanlow station would be possible, as if its a Network Rail station then I'm sure it'd follow the same guidelines regardless of the refineries around it. However I doubt the security at those places would feel the same way about it.

Shouldn't have any problems photting at Ellesmere Port, just be careful as there were some dodgy looking people passing by and I got some shifty looks when I took a quick phot of a 508 there.

 

[northwichcat]

dont northern rail know that if they put more trains on that line then more people will use it.

Northern only run the services within their franchise arrangement. Even if they did run more services they wouldn't have sufficient stock to run services in the morning and evening peaks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From chester, that route could be quicker than Merseyrail.

I think the route would have to be transferred to ATW to allow the service to start back from Chester unless they put pick up and set down restrictions at Helsby as Northern can't simply take the passengers travelling between Chester and Helsby.

 

[robert2000]

noooo, i was talking about changing trains at helsby.

12 min journey to hooton, 15 min wait at hooton and 12 mins to ellesmere port,

they could make changing at helsby quicker. instead of hooton

 

[northwichcat]

12 min journey to hooton, 15 min wait at hooton and 12 mins to ellesmere port,

they could make changing at helsby quicker. instead of hooton

There's one train an hour between Helsby and Chester and Northern wouldn't use more than one unit on a service as short as Helsby-Ellesmere Port so it could easily be a 40 minute wait at Helsby.

Although it wouldn't be a bad idea for ATW to take over the service as they do have the closest depot to Helsby and they have 153s that they could use on such a service.

 

[nedchester]

As far as I am aware Network Rail own Stanlow and Thornton station and it's managed by Northern therefore there is no reason why you cannot take photos from it. Just keep the camera hidden until such time as the train turns up.

The Security at Stanlow will have no jurisdiction there I would have thought.

Security have been 'jumpy' there for years. Remember a tour going down there a few years ago and being jumped on by security but their concern was my car parked outside the station and not what I and others were doing. The security bloke was fine once we told him that we were going to take a picture of the tour and go.

However, you might have hassle these days. I might go and try myself it's only a couple of miles from where I live so might have an afternoon trip on the shuttle there and take a pic and find out what happens.....! As I say legally they can do very little as the land is not owned by them.

Pic at Stanlow a while back:

http://nedchester-nostalgia.fotopic.net/p25802535.html

 

[northwichcat]

As far as I am aware Network Rail own Stanlow and Thornton station and it's managed by Northern therefore there is no reason why you cannot take photos from it. Just keep the camera hidden until such time as the train turns up.

The company managing the station usually makes no difference. The rule with photographs is that if you're on public land you can photograph anything you want as long as you don't delibaretly take a picture of a person. However, stations are in theory private property as they are owned by Network Rail so at any staffed station you should inform railway staff before taking pictures but at an unstaffed station you rarey would be told off for taking pictures without permission.

 

[Green Lane]

However, you might have hassle these days. I might go and try myself it's only a couple of miles from where I live so might have an afternoon trip on the shuttle there and take a pic and find out what happens.....! As I say legally they can do very little as the land is not owned by them.

Well if you do happen to do it, I'd be interested to read about your endeavours.

Now this isn't strictly a rail-related issue but the thing that gets me about that place is that the refinery itself takes up a huge swathe of land around the southern banks of the Mersey basin, which is fair enough.

But as a hiker, lets say I want to walk from the Wirral peninsula to the villages of Ince & Elton, or anywhere sort of East of the refinery, then clearly the most direct route is straight down Oil Sites Road, but with all the "Private Road" and "No photography" signs etc.. added to local news reports such as "armed police called in after Stanlow intruder alert" (recently) it's just so intimidating. It also doesn't help that there's also no pavement from the Ellesmere Port end of the busy A5117 road until Thornton-le-Moors, which would otherwise be a good alternative.

The other alternative route on foot that I know of from the Boat Museum, is to walk down the canal for a while then scramble up the side of a bridge, taking a public footpath across farmland to the village of Thornton-le-moors. From there, get onto the A5117 where it does have pavement and walk to Elton Green. But, IIRC that's going almost two miles out of the way to some places.

So just wish there was some official signage saying the road was open to pedestrians and cyclists (just to pass through the area), because it is very offputting the way it is now. But of course in the interests of security they probably don't want people walking through there, which is understandable.

I also read reports of planning applications to totally seal the road off with permanently manned gatehouses, so in the future I think its going to become even less accessible. This may well also be related to disruptive strike action that has blocked the road in previous years too.

But all in all, looks like on foot I'll be taking the long way round the site in future, unless of course I take the train instead.

 

[robert2000]

i didnt realise stanlow and thornton station was right in the middle of a refinery, wen i looked on google earth, i said to myself, wat was the point in building a station right there, unless it was there 1st.

2nd point is, why has it become heavily used all of a sudden?

 

[First class]

i didnt realise stanlow and thornton station was right in the middle of a refinery, wen i looked on google earth, i said to myself, wat was the point in building a station right there, unless it was there 1st.

2nd point is, why has it become heavily used all of a sudden?

Its always been fairly well used in the mornings, the figures have always been wrong- (deliberately?) Ince & Elton can be well used in the evening when a school in Frodsham lets out.

As for Stanlow, Oil Sites Road, (the station road) is a private road and is closed to the public traffic. It can be walked down, but you may be stopped. There is no right of way as it is not a public road. I also think this road is one of the most dangerous I've ever walked down. Big tankers, open canals/pits, old railway sidings to walk through etc. It is about a 30-45minute walk from Ellesmere Port, and a similiar sort of distance from Ince & Elton. There are signs everywhere on this road saying 'No Photographs'. This station is now only accessible by foot/train, even for the Northern Rail/Network Rail SMT.

Stanlow station has CCTV monitored by Shell Security and they will appear and ask you what you are up to. They will leave you alone though if you're okay. They will remind you to only photograph the station and not to take pictures of the refinery or security systems. The Civil Nuclear Police also appear here, (from the Capenhurst site), but unsure of what they actually do at Shell.

The station was built solely to serve the refinery! Hence the people who use it most are workers there.

 

[Green Lane]

Its always been fairly well used in the mornings, the figures have always been wrong- (deliberately?) Ince & Elton can be well used in the evening when a school in Frodsham lets out.

Thanks for the info re: Stanlow/Oil Sites Road.

In leiu of any official info on these matters it is interesting to read what the situation actually is.

Suffice it to say that on foot at least, I'll be keeping away from the area in the future. Glad I walked down the road already, just to see the (outside of) the station. Of course I find the station interesting from a rail enthusiast point of view, but I don't think I'm brave enough walk down that road again, as it currently stands.

You are correct re: the hazzards. The tailwinds whipped up by the large (and fast) tankers can almost knock you off your feet as you walk merely a few feet away from them.

 

[nedchester]

Its always been fairly well used in the mornings, the figures have always been wrong- (deliberately?) Ince & Elton can be well used in the evening when a school in Frodsham lets out.

As for Stanlow, Oil Sites Road, (the station road) is a private road and is closed to the public traffic. It can be walked down, but you may be stopped. There is no right of way as it is not a public road. I also think this road is one of the most dangerous I've ever walked down. Big tankers, open canals/pits, old railway sidings to walk through etc. It is about a 30-45minute walk from Ellesmere Port, and a similiar sort of distance from Ince & Elton. There are signs everywhere on this road saying 'No Photographs'. This station is now only accessible by foot/train, even for the Northern Rail/Network Rail SMT.

Stanlow station has CCTV monitored by Shell Security and they will appear and ask you what you are up to. They will leave you alone though if you're okay. They will remind you to only photograph the station and not to take pictures of the refinery or security systems. The Civil Nuclear Police also appear here, (from the Capenhurst site), but unsure of what they actually do at Shell.

The station was built solely to serve the refinery! Hence the people who use it most are workers there.

I have cycled a few times down there in the last twelve months and it's OK and you just pass the barriers that the block the road off. If you take photos from the station I doubt that Shell security could 'legally' stop you taking pictures of the refinery from the station as I have said before they probably have jurisdiction there?

Railway interest was better when they had oil trains from there:

http://nedchester-nostalgia.fotopic.net/p29911807.html

http://nedchester-nostalgia.fotopic.net/p5109142.html

http://nedchester-nostalgia.fotopic.net/p5109149.html

http://nedchester-nostalgia.fotopic.net/p25803011.html

 

[37372]

Nice shots nedchester!

 

[robert2000]

ok, i want to travel on this line again, ill get either the 15.34 or the 16.04 after a few hours in ellesmere port, my ticket is valid either via hooton or helsby.

 

[nedchester]

after a few hours in ellesmere port,

HOURS!!! Are you mad?!!! (Not the best place to spend a few hours!! and I live not far from there!!)

 

[robert2000]

true, ill giv myself an hour there,
plus ellesmere port isnt the best of places to spend to long in. lol

 

[nedchester]

true, ill giv myself an hour there,
plus ellesmere port isnt the best of places to spend to long in. lol

You might just be OK then?!