New Govt - a way back for National Express?

[daccer]

It struck me that with the new lot now in power and a new direction seemingly in order that all bets might be off for decisions made by Labour and by Adonis in partcular. The Tories seem to be saying that everything is under review and that budgets are going to be cut. With this in mind I was thinking about the situation with National Express.

Adonis seemed to imply that they had no future in the rail industry and that when their two franchises lapsed they would disappear into the same hole that swallowed other failed operators such as Connex. National Express seemed to be keen to continue in the UK railway industry and may have just made a one off mistake with NXEC. so the questions I have are these.

Considering the budget restraints being spoken about by the Tories can we afford to let a major company leave the industry albeit unwillingly. Less players means less companies tendering and less competition normally means things being given away more cheaply.

We seem happy to give away parts of our railways to foreign ownership. if I am right Nat Ex are a UK company and are about to be kicked out. Is this right?

And lastly should it be one chance and your gone. Nat Ex dropped a clanger on the the East Coast but I think their overall record stands comparison with most. Was there an element of bad luck that they bid for East Coast just as a recession hit. Was Adonis cutting his nose of to spit his face by basically telling Nat Ex their number was up regardless of what they tried to do to make it right.

anyway some comments please

 

[j0hn0]

I don't think so.

There are rules, break them and you pay the penalty is my opinion.

By all accounts, it is still the same people operating it but doing it for for the government instead so taking away the overhead of dividends, might actually work.

I say put Adonis in charge of Network Rail

 

[adambro]

There is absolutely the possibility that National Express might be given the opportunity to return to UK rail sooner than might have been the case had Labour remained in goverment. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/07/national-express-rail-conservatives dating from February. Of course, whether National Express would want to is another question. I'd assume they wouldn't want the East Coast franchise after their recent experience nor would they probably be able to get it.

 

[mallard]

Lets not forget that East Coast wasn't the first franchise NEG have lost, even if it was the most spectacular failure. NEG used to run around a third of the passenger rail network, with ScotRail, Wales and Borders, Midland Mainline, Central Trains, Silverlink, WAGN Wessex Trains and Gatwick Express.

While CT, MML and Silverlink were lost in restructuring, rather than failing to renew, the fact remains that NEG have a pretty awful record in the UK rail industry.

 

[silentone]

The current 'National Express' company are currently focusing on their bus & coach operations. The new boss is trying to get those books in good working order and recent goings on within the company seem to suggest rail is off the cards at the moment.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I wouldn't say NX have a particularly bad record compared to other companies that have or do operate trains in the UK.

Central was the only one that is particularly bad, but I've not seen massive praise of EMT, XC or LM when it comes to the former Central routes for making massive improvements. Trains have been refurbished and in some cases replaced (at least on the LM side) but that would have happened regardless of the operators.

Silverlink were fairly average, I've seen nothing to suggest LM have been an improvement there, in fact I hear a lot of critisism of them.

Wessex and Scotrail were both pretty good. FGW seems to range from no better to worse. FSR is mostly good due to the large investment by the Scottish Government.

Beyond a stupid name, 'one' were never that bad. The major critisism tends to be surrounding the changes to the GEML services, with Lowestoft and Peterborough trains extended to London, Ipswich terminators removed, and additional stops on Norwich trains. That was part of the the franchise specification and would likely have occured whoever won it. That just leaves MML and c2c, both of which were very good, although MML had their moments and c2c is a fairly easy franchise.

First, Arriva, Stagecoach, Virgin, none of those come off perfect when it comes to their franchises. First remember was damned lucky not to loose GW, in fact had the same strict approach been taken as with NXEC they very well might have and might also have been excluded from future bidding.

It's also pretty ironic to use NX's performance to justify not giving them more franchises when despite the terrible reputation of Central Trains, not only did that franchise get a number of extensions, but they were still allowed to bid for many other franchises, and win Greater Anglia and East Coast. It wasn't until the financial issues came up that they were suddenly thrown on the scrap heap. Remember too that it was financial issues that were the death of Connex as a UK rail franchise holder too, not performance (as they were allowed to keep SE for some time after they lost SC).

 

[tbtc]

the fact remains that NEG have a pretty awful record in the UK rail industry

Eh?

Despite buying two sets of new trains at Midland Mainline and doubling the frequencies to London? (new London services for places like Barnsley/ Matlock/ Burton)

Despite buying all those new Turbostars for ScotRail and doubling the main frequencies in central belt Scotland? (Edinburgh - Glasgow, Edinburgh - Fife Circle etc)

Despite doing the Government a massive favour by taking over the floundering Prism franchises and giving stability to the provincial routes?

Ah, but they got rid of the old GNER livery and downgraded some of the FIrst Class perks on the ECML, so enthusiasts dismiss them :roll:

 

[ChrisCooper]

Eh?

Despite buying two sets of new trains at Midland Mainline and doubling the frequencies to London? (new London services for places like Barnsley/ Matlock/ Burton)

Despite buying all those new Turbostars for ScotRail and doubling the main frequencies in central belt Scotland? (Edinburgh - Glasgow, Edinburgh - Fife Circle etc)

Despite doing the Government a massive favour by taking over the floundering Prism franchises and giving stability to the provincial routes?

Ah, but they got rid of the old GNER livery and downgraded some of the FIrst Class perks on the ECML, so enthusiasts dismiss them :roll:

Remember, they didn't just get rid of GNER, they got rid of First Great Eastern too (and Anglia, but nobody ever seems to care about them). They also run coaches, which afterall compete with trains, so are evil. Oh and the're English, not Scottish or German.

 

[ivanhoe]

Any Company that was saddled with Bowker as it's CEO deserves a second chance

 

[mumrar]

I'm impressed with the list of trains which NX bought. Except that they leased them from ROSCOs, who will have consulted DfT and NX as to what suited the route. It seems a lot of people still hold the false belief that TOCs buy their rolling stock. Most likely due to the number of media shots of Dickie Branson dangling out of his TOCs trains with dolled up tarts in attendance at every opportunity.

 

[313103]

Seems some have forgotten that Silverlink did not just encompass the now re franchised London midland they also use own what is now London Overground. As a former employee of an NEG owned toc i can quite catorgorically say farewell to bad rubbish and i think i speak for many former and current employees of NEG. As an aside NEG did tender for the London overground network however there very poor ownership and running of Silverlink Metro meant it saw no favours within City Hall and the award was given to someone else.

As for Silverlink being a fairly average company, i would they were poor to very poor on delivering the service to the customer. Just ask those who travelled on the former silverlink metro routes they will tell you what it was really like.

 

[87015]

Remember, they didn't just get rid of GNER, they got rid of First Great Eastern too (and Anglia, but nobody ever seems to care about them). They also run coaches, which afterall compete with trains, so are evil. Oh and the're English, not Scottish or German.

How is franchise re-mapping "got rid of"?

FGE was seen as no great loss by the end of the franchise as the now more common First attitudes were coming home to roost.

NX are poor, but the rest all range from poor to very poor so it doesn't really matter...

 

[blacknight]

Remember, they didn't just get rid of GNER, they got rid of First Great Eastern too (and Anglia, but nobody ever seems to care about them). They also run coaches, which afterall compete with trains, so are evil. Oh and the're English, not Scottish or German.

Think you will find Cosmen family are actually Spanish so NatEx not as English as you think. Personally I was happy to see them kicked off ECML & no good reason for them to make a return any time soon.

 

[Failed Unit]

Eh?

Despite buying two sets of new trains at Midland Mainline and doubling the frequencies to London? (new London services for places like Barnsley/ Matlock/ Burton)

Leased from ROSCO's in terms of the new stock from CT that really made little difference to the franchise itself. The 170's released the 150's that are currently with London Overground (via Silverlink) and 158's to many TOC's such as TPE and Wessex at the time. The net increase in coaches was very small.

Despite buying all those new Turbostars for ScotRail and doubling the main frequencies in central belt Scotland? (Edinburgh - Glasgow, Edinburgh - Fife Circle etc)

But the managed to **** of the Scottish Executive so much in the process with strikes etc that they wouldn't touch them with a barge poll

Despite doing the Government a massive favour by taking over the floundering Prism franchises and giving stability to the provincial routes?

As a CT user in Lincolnshire the area was ran for operation convience rather than for passengers. Look at one of their flagship routes Norwich - Liverpool how many trains made it to Liverpool? How many made it to Norwich? Turning around early was the name of the game. In Lincolnshire they made no attempt to provide an intergrated service. You just could not really on them. Travel on a Sunday forget it the chances of seeing a train were low, replacement bus maybe. Got a peak flow to Skegness what should we send I know a 153! What shall we do with the 156? shuttle it between Liecester and Loughborough with 5 passengers on board!

Ah, but they got rid of the old GNER livery and downgraded some of the FIrst Class perks on the ECML, so enthusiasts dismiss them :roll:

Turning what was considered one of the best inter-city franchises into one of the worse in less than 1 year is a fairly good thing to have on your CV

Remember MML was also bottom of the league for franchises for a number of years.

 

[Bellwater]

Eh?

Despite buying two sets of new trains at Midland Mainline and doubling the frequencies to London? (new London services for places like Barnsley/ Matlock/ Burton)

Despite buying all those new Turbostars for ScotRail and doubling the main frequencies in central belt Scotland? (Edinburgh - Glasgow, Edinburgh - Fife Circle etc)

Despite doing the Government a massive favour by taking over the floundering Prism franchises and giving stability to the provincial routes?

Ah, but they got rid of the old GNER livery and downgraded some of the FIrst Class perks on the ECML, so enthusiasts dismiss them :roll:

And...

Ordering new trains(Class 170s) for the Central Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Cardiff Services?

Getting Class 350s to run up to Liverpool, freeing up 170s, and for the WCML?

Bringing loads of cheap offers to get people on Trains? (Lincoln-Grimsby was £3-summat return for ages)

I agree, it's all about the GNER Froth.

As a CT user in Lincolnshire the area was ran for operation convience rather than for passengers. Look at one of their flagship routes Norwich - Liverpool how many trains made it to Liverpool? How many made it to Norwich? Turning around early was the name of the game. In Lincolnshire they made no attempt to provide an intergrated service. You just could not really on them. Travel on a Sunday forget it the chances of seeing a train were low, replacement bus maybe. Got a peak flow to Skegness what should we send I know a 153! What shall we do with the 156? shuttle it between Liecester and Loughborough with 5 passengers on board!

There wasn't a Single 153 on Skeg for years once the 170s came out.

If they were turning the Liverpool - Norwich it was probably because of infrastructure problems, but that's NEG's fault isn't it.

 

[Failed Unit]

It was the RoscoS that order the new trains. BR that provided the £3 Grimsby - Lincoln fare and central abolished it. When it was in existance what did we have to put up with a 153 with people at Market Rasen frequently left behind on the 0932 Ex Grimsby service

When CT took over the franchise Grimsby had direct trains to Birmingham this flow was handed to Tpe by CT. CT cut the Lincoln to Grimsby service by 30% despite a franchise commitment not to. Sorry bellwater but I was definately celabrating when National express lost the franchise. Did you see Market rasen station under Ct management it was an embarasment. Have you seen it now? Very pleasent. Emt are a vast improvement on ct aka Birmingham railways. I can assure you 153 solo runs were still taking place to Skegness in the last year of the franchise. Lincoln - Doncaster was run down under Ct and Lincoln - peterborough was also reduced at weekends from 8 trains to 6 despite growth on the route.

 

[Bellwater]

BR that provided the £3 Grimsby - Lincoln fare and central abolished it.

Nah, Central introduced it when they took over.. i've got the leaflet somewhere.

When it was in existance what did we have to put up with a 153 with people at Market Rasen frequently left behind on the 0932 Ex Grimsby service.

Still happens now on a Saturday.

I can assure you 153 solo runs were still taking place to Skegness in the last year of the franchise.

I can't remember it and i'm on that line most days.

 

[Failed Unit]

If they were turning the Liverpool - Norwich it was probably because of infrastructure problems, but that's NEG's fault isn't it.

east midlands trains can manage it. But it was lack of staff that caused the short runs. I guess it was NEGs fault that the Sunday service was always decimated by lack of staff as well. Something that didn't effect Northern. Same issue at Christmas they never had enough staff to run the service with lots of buses instead.

 

[Bellwater]

I guess it was NEGs fault that the Sunday service was always decimated by lack of staff as well. Something that didn't effect Northern. Same issue at Christmas they never had enough staff to run the service with lots of buses instead.

Northern Staff don't have the same Sunday Agreements Central Did.

EMT do turn Trains back for the same reasons Central do, and many other TOCs - Problems en route causing delays.

 

[Failed Unit]

Still happens now on a Saturday.

Although I am not on it every week it is normally 2x 153s in my experience. 156 if we are lucky. I guess it only takes a failed unit for us to suffer the 153 bus combo again I had hoped those days had gone with ct. Glad I have personally avoided it.

 

[bluenoxid]

They also run coaches, which afterall compete with trains, so are evil.

So does First (Greyhound), Stagecoach (Megabus) and Arriva (several long distance coach routes including the 685 Carlisle to Newcastle). Only Go Ahead don't as far as I am aware but I am sure someone find an example.

 

[Failed Unit]

Northern Staff don't have the same Sunday Agreements Central Did.

EMT do turn Trains back for the same reasons Central do, and many other TOCs - Problems en route causing delays.

That is my point central were incapable of providing staff a package where they would want to work weekends or having enough to cover staff not wanting to work rest days. The problems were down to poor management. Yes emt do turn round early but no way near as often as ct.

 

[Bellwater]

Some people won't want to work Sundays no matter how much money you throw at them.

If you want to back up the EMT/CT turnbacks with stats go ahead, i'd say they're similar.

This could take a while considering i know who you are...

 

[Failed Unit]

Some people won't want to work Sundays no matter how much money you throw at them.

If you want to back up the EMT/CT turnbacks with stats go ahead, i'd say they're similar.

This could take a while considering i know who you are...

so you will be paying me a visit then. Will see what I can do but you are right it will take a while. For me the won't be back in Lincolnshire for a while anyway so I am happy. I will concentrate my efforts on lobbying improvements following eureka. If you have seen the proposal for Grimsby to Lincoln this is a bigger threat to the lines viability then anything ct did unless they restore connections at either Lincoln or Newark for passengers heading for London.

 

[Bellwater]

I know what's being planned, but i won't post it on a public forum.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know what's being planned, but i won't post it on a public forum.

Fair enough. I am hoping that May 2011 is just a tempory problem as emt recast typically in Dec so doing it in May would cause issues. But it would be a crimanal waste if Lincolnshire wasn't recast to take advantage of the new timetable on ecml. Imagine how many more passengers Lincoln to Doncaster could get if it arrived in Doncaster in time for a connection to Edinburgh and Leeds from the x20 and x30 services ex kings cross. Grimsby to Nottingham with a connection to London at Lincoln would be heaven. I will stop frothing now.

 

[tbtc]

Although I am not on it every week it is normally 2x 153s in my experience. 156 if we are lucky

Why "if we are lucky"?

As far as passengers are concerned (since they don't have to worry about the small cab), a 156 is pretty indistinguishable from a pair of 153s

Talking about Central, you have to remain that this was an era of understaffed TOCs turning services back and relying on replacement coach services far too readily. Various reasons for it (ex BR "working" practices, short term obsessions, TOCs going for quick cheap "fixes" etc), but certainly not unique to Central Trains

 

[ChrisCooper]

Wow, rail enthusiasts today are becoming such a load of fanboys. So many will hear nothing bad about their favorite TOC or company (DB, GC, GNER and WSMR all tend to be favorites) and will hear nothing good about ones they dislike (NX and Arriva particularly suffer, Virgin and Stagecoach you either love or hate, First tends to hover more to the love end, the rest are fairly neutral). It's particularly true when people start bringing third parties into it (DfT/SRA, ROCSOs etc). No you can't hide behind third parties to deflect critisism from your favorite TOC yet forget their involvement when critisising other TOCs. You can't also use third parties to deflect praise away from disliked TOCs when again forgetting them to allow praise to be heaped on a favorite TOC.
Classic example, favorite TOC operates some poor stock, it's because the DfT won't allow them to get anything better. Disliked TOC operates poor stock then the DfT doesn't get a mention (beyond "why don't the DfT end their franchise and give it to *my* favorite company!"). Favorite company gets new trains and it shows how brilliant they are. Disliked company gets new trains and it's because the DfT, ROCSOs, Taxpayer, funded them.

Lets face the facts. All of the TOCs are out for profit, as are all companies. For all they say it's their main focus. Customers come second, as even does safety. Maximising profit though does involve paying attention to the customer and safety. Dis-satisfied and dead customers tend to not come back. TOCs are highly regulated and transient. They invest little of their own money as there is a limited time to get a return due to short franchises. They don't have much flexability either, both due to regulation and infrastructure. When looking at bidders for franchises I tend to think who is likely to have the nicest livery and the best name, as it's about the only difference there will be.

Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to defend NX, and I'm not a great fan of them (I was a big user of Central and also remember MMLs bad times, and never really got on with 'one') at least not for trains (coaches on the other hand). I'm just saying that when looked at fairly they are no worse than most other operators. Oh and by the way, my post about them taking over FGE and Anglia was intended as a joke.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why "if we are lucky"?

As far as passengers are concerned (since they don't have to worry about the small cab), a 156 is pretty indistinguishable from a pair of 153s

Talking about Central, you have to remain that this was an era of understaffed TOCs turning services back and relying on replacement coach services far too readily. Various reasons for it (ex BR "working" practices, short term obsessions, TOCs going for quick cheap "fixes" etc), but certainly not unique to Central Trains

I may be imagining it but I prefer the seating pitch on the 156. There appears to be more leg room. Definately more tables so you have less chance at needing to ram your legs at the back of an airline seat. Yes they both have the same number of seats but with an extra cab and toilet you have to make sacrifices to fit in the seats

If you compare the last day of CT timetable to the last day of BRs did it improve?

Frequency? Reduced on most routes in lincs. Not increased on any.
Direct services? Many lost including Lincoln to Birmingham and Skegness to derby. I guess most of this is down to daft.
Number of seats? Reduced as more 153s are on most routes which replaced the 156. My local line was nearly all 156's under the final years of BR, decent connections? I know the days of holding then are gone but how often did timetables provide 6 mins to connect when 7 was needed
short turns and weekend cancelations where rare under BR common under CT. Again I would concede BR had more staff, but what stoped CT recruiting?
It is hard to compare PPM, the raw figures BR was better, but as many will point out the number of trains on the network increased so the pinch points like the flat crossing at Newark would have a larger impact.

So justified or not you can see why I hated the CT years the rail services I used under them got worse much worse. Every new time table it was the question what will they cut this time. There isn't much left. Market Rasen had a PIS and PA installed under BR (paid for by Lincs CC) this never worked while CT managed the stations and was removed under CT. As I said early CT didn't spend 1p on the station until the franchise ended when they were forced to return the asset to a suitable condidition for the new franchise. Lucky most people have mobiles now to see what is happening to thier trains.