Given the Shapps announcement, which lines would you propose for reopening?

[Peter Kelford]

Cholsey to Wallingford ticks the above boxes, apart from point 5 (as it is sited in the affluent SE of England).

Since the heritage line already runs trains, why not subsidise them to run a class 121. After all, the 121 was used on the mainline until not long ago...

 

[daodao]

Since the heritage line already runs trains, why not subsidise them to run a class 121. After all, the 121 was used on the mainline until not long ago...

No - to be useful, it needs to be a through (electric) service every hour from Reading/London, by diversion of one of the 2 tph that currently runs to Didcot.

 

[yorksrob]

I also think that 500 million is not enough. I've said on here a few times that the Government should be investing one billion a year, over ten years towards rail re-openings. That is if they are serious on climate change and improving the railways.

If many billions can be found for road improvements, or HS2, then surely ten billion, costed over ten years is do-able and would make a huge difference to communities across the country.

Absolutely spot on.

This needs to be a long term policy, properly funded, not a short term crowd pleaser.

 

[startingaparty]

The Rugby and Stamford Railway, particularly as the public transport in Rutland's villages is diabolical.

 

[Mark J]

Absolutely spot on.

This needs to be a long term policy, properly funded, not a short term crowd pleaser.

Don't get me wrong, £500 million is a step in the right direction but as you say is more of a short term 'crowd pleaser'.

Ten billion would pay for a fair few re-openings, with the money budgeted and paid for over a ten year period, not all at once.

Realistically, how many re-openings will £500 million be enough for? One or two major schemes at best? Six or seven smaller ones?

 

[Meerkat]

What is the scale of the benefit from perhaps a dozen freight services a day when £300-400m is spent on a new route? Who gets that benefit, and how does that benefit find its way back to whoever would pay for the line?

Also, how long is the Liverpool-Drax contract for?
Freight is notoriously changeable so rather than risk being left with a rural money pit it would be better to spend that large amount of cash on general capacity improvements.

 

[Meerkat]

• Aberbeeg to Abertyleri, as the terminus for an hourly service from Newport, Gwent

• Ystrad Mynach to Blackwood (Coed Duon), as the terminus for an hourly service from Cardiff - the Maes-y-Cwmmer viaduct is still extant

• Nunthorpe to Guisborough, as the terminus for an hourly service from Middlesbrough

• Hunt's Cross to Gateacre, as an extension of Merseyrail

• Walsall to Aldridge, as the terminus for a half-hourly service from Birmingham

• Mansfield to Ollerton, as the terminus for an hourly service from Nottingham

• Harrogate to Ripon, as the terminus for an hourly service from Leeds

• Bere Alston to Tavistock, as the terminus for an hourly service from Plymouth

First one would be too infrequent, better to have a railway bus that took people to the top of the hill and connected.
Blackwood line is built on at both ends, and at wrong level at west end. Again bus connections better.
Guisborough superficially a good idea but where would the station go without the line demolishing houses, cutting off paths, and being too close to housing?
Not convince Gateacre worth the conflicts and electrification issues - go to Warrington instead.
Aldridge defo a good idea (if it can keep out the way of the freight)
Ollerton is a village at the end of a too twisty branch.
Ripon looks a fair distance for not that big a place, but would help traffic.
Tavistock fits the bill if the station is convenient enough, and the service frequent and fast enough.

 

[duffield]

Don't get me wrong, £500 million is a step in the right direction but as you say is more of a short term 'crowd pleaser'.

Ten billion would pay for a fair few re-openings, with the money budgeted and paid for over a ten year period, not all at once.

Realistically, how many re-openings will £500 million be enough for? One or two major schemes at best? Six or seven smaller ones?

I believe the minister clarified that the £500 million was for working up proposals, doing feasibility studies etc., not for the actual re-openings.

 

[Mogz]

I wonder whether GWR would be able to spare a unit for a weekday Cholsey-Wallingford shuttle given the line is already open.

Ditto Chiltern over Chinnor-Princes Risborough.

It’s not as if Chinnor or Wallingford are tiny places. Has a trial commuter service ever been considered for either line?

 

[yorksrob]

Don't get me wrong, £500 million is a step in the right direction but as you say is more of a short term 'crowd pleaser'.

Ten billion would pay for a fair few re-openings, with the money budgeted and paid for over a ten year period, not all at once.

Realistically, how many re-openings will £500 million be enough for? One or two major schemes at best? Six or seven smaller ones?

Indeed. And it's not as though we have to get into a massive bun fight as to which lines to reopen. The groundwork was already done in the Connecting Communities report contributed to by our very own @ChiefPlanner a few years ago. This could help to form the basis of an ongoing programme.

Really 10 billion over ten years isn't an unreasonable sum for such a programme, given the commitment to HS2 and the national road building programme.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Indeed. And it's not as though we have to get into a massive bun fight as to which lines to reopen. The groundwork was already done in the Connecting Communities report contributed to by our very own @ChiefPlanner a few years ago. This could help to form the basis of an ongoing programme.

Really 10 billion over ten years isn't an unreasonable sum for such a programme, given the commitment to HS2 and the national road building programme.

My understanding is that various and relevant parts of the industry and funders , have been re-reading "Connecting Communities" , hopefully a bit of extra work on some of that done about a decade or so again my bear fruit. (and very enjoyable work may I say - even though it sometimes involved traipsing over muddy sites and through overgrown areas).

 

[yorksrob]

My understanding is that various and relevant parts of the industry and funders , have been re-reading "Connecting Communities" , hopefully a bit of extra work on some of that done about a decade or so again my bear fruit. (and very enjoyable work may I say - even though it sometimes involved traipsing over muddy sites and through overgrown areas).

Indeed. Finger's crossed someone in power will recognise it as a worthwhile and popular policy and take note.

 

[daodao]

First one would be too infrequent, better to have a railway bus that took people to the top of the hill and connected.
............
Not convince Gateacre worth the conflicts and electrification issues - go to Warrington instead.
...........

Abertyleri is in a valley and only 2-3 miles from Aberbeeg. The trackbed is still extant as far as a supermarket in the town. This re-opening is already being officially considered.
Gateacre should be straightforward given that the Merseyrail emus already terminate on the northernmost platform (no. 3) at Hunt's Cross.

 

[Mark J]

Indeed. Finger's crossed someone in power will recognise it as a worthwhile and popular policy and take note.

Totally agree.

My understanding is that various and relevant parts of the industry and funders , have been re-reading "Connecting Communities" , hopefully a bit of extra work on some of that done about a decade or so again my bear fruit. (and very enjoyable work may I say - even though it sometimes involved traipsing over muddy sites and through overgrown areas).

Would much have changed in the ten years since the report was published?

For example would BCR's from ten years ago still be roughly the same, gone down, or increased, in relation to costs for re-instating some of the proposals.

 

[Bald Rick]

Abertyleri is in a valley and only 2-3 miles from Aberbeeg. The trackbed is still extant as far as a supermarket in the town. This re-opening is already being officially considered.
Gateacre should be straightforward given that the Merseyrail emus already terminate on the northernmost platform (no. 3) at Hunt's Cross.

Abertillery is certainly near the top of my list. A much better prospect than most suggested on this thread. Huge regeneration potential, as seen in the next valley west.

 

[Bald Rick]

Totally agree.

Would much have changed in the ten years since the report was published?

For example would BCR's from ten years ago still be roughly the same, gone down, or increased, in relation to costs for re-instating some of the proposals.

Yes, a lot has changed. Costs are now much better understood, as a number of lines have been opened in that time and more are being built now. Benefits are also better understood, particularly what it is that drives the benefit.

At a guess I’d say that, typically, BCRs for the better cases will have got stronger, whilst those for the weaker cases will have got worse.

 

[Mark J]

I wonder whether GWR would be able to spare a unit for a weekday Cholsey-Wallingford shuttle given the line is already open.

Ditto Chiltern over Chinnor-Princes Risborough.

It’s not as if Chinnor or Wallingford are tiny places. Has a trial commuter service ever been considered for either line?

I always thought that Chiltern missed a trick by not reopening the Princes Risborough to Oxford route.

They could have operated a loop line through Oxford, one train going via Cowley to Oxford and then returning to London via Bicester. Whilst the next train went to Oxford via Bicester, then returning to London via Cowley and Princes Risborough, and so on.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I always thought that Chiltern missed a trick by not reopening the Princes Risborough to Oxford route.

They could have operated a loop line through Oxford, one train going via Cowley to Oxford and then returning to London via Bicester. Whilst the next train went to Oxford via Bicester, then returning to London via Cowley and Princes Risborough, and so on.

It was looked under "CC" - there is an expensive housing development on part of the formation.

I think that was the day I ripped my trousers , caught on barbed wire , exploring the near collapsed tunnel section on that route.

 

[Bald Rick]

I always thought that Chiltern missed a trick by not reopening the Princes Risborough to Oxford route.

They could have operated a loop line through Oxford, one train going via Cowley to Oxford and then returning to London via Bicester. Whilst the next train went to Oxford via Bicester, then returning to London via Cowley and Princes Risborough, and so on.

A lot of extra cost for little benefit. Oxford is the big benefit generator, and that’s been done.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, a lot has changed. Costs are now much better understood, as a number of lines have been opened in that time and more are being built now. Benefits are also better understood, particularly what it is that drives the benefit.

At a guess I’d say that, typically, BCRs for the better cases will have got stronger, whilst those for the weaker cases will have got worse.

I regret not funding some detailed research on how the Vale of Glamorgan (posh area by and large , high car ownership) , and Ebbw Vale (much poorer area - especially at the top end , lowish car owneership) , both did so incredibly well - VOG reached it's annual estimates in about 4 months , and Ebbw Vale not much worse. We had the money at the time , and it would have been more than interesting on some detailed analysis as to who was using these new services , and why. A lost opportunity.

I suspect nowadays cost estimating etc ought to be a lot better ..as well as benefits. Much to play for I reckon.

 

[Dr Day]

I regret not funding some detailed research on how the Vale of Glamorgan (posh area by and large , high car ownership) , and Ebbw Vale (much poorer area - especially at the top end , lowish car owneership) , both did so incredibly well - VOG reached it's annual estimates in about 4 months , and Ebbw Vale not much worse. We had the money at the time , and it would have been more than interesting on some detailed analysis as to who was using these new services , and why. A lost opportunity.

I suspect nowadays cost estimating etc ought to be a lot better ..as well as benefits. Much to play for I reckon.

The EU (as well as other funders) require evaluation of schemes they have invested in to verify they performed the way they were forecast to.

https://gov.wales/reopening-ebbw-vale-line-highly-successful-new-report-finds

A general comment on these kind of things is the definition of 'success'. One could argue that the demand forecasts for Ebbw Vale were very low relative to the parallel Rhymney Line, so it may not have been particularly surprising that they were achieved.

 

[The Planner]

I wonder whether GWR would be able to spare a unit for a weekday Cholsey-Wallingford shuttle given the line is already open.

Ditto Chiltern over Chinnor-Princes Risborough.

It’s not as if Chinnor or Wallingford are tiny places. Has a trial commuter service ever been considered for either line?

Chinnor is tiny and Wallingford isnt that much bigger. File under providing a Jag to take each person to Risborough or Cholsey so they can keep the Range Rover at home.

 

[DJ_K666]

Don't get me wrong, £500 million is a step in the right direction but as you say is more of a short term 'crowd pleaser'.

Ten billion would pay for a fair few re-openings, with the money budgeted and paid for over a ten year period, not all at once.

Realistically, how many re-openings will £500 million be enough for? One or two major schemes at best? Six or seven smaller ones?

I think the 500 mil is seed funding to get schemes up and running to produce business cases and funding would come from elsewhere. Need !00k for a feasability study? Apply to the fund. Then the funding for the scheme proper would come from a premium on housing, x amount funding from consortiums etc and some further funds from the Government.

 

[Clayton]

Chinnor is tiny and Wallingford isnt that much bigger. File under providing a Jag to take each person to Risborough or Cholsey so they can keep the Range Rover at home.

Yes, and Cholsey only has slow trains. You need to get to Didcot for which bus is sufficient.

 

[daodao]

Yes, and Cholsey only has slow trains. You need to get to Didcot for which bus is sufficient.

If Wallingford is to be re-opened, it should be served direct from Reading/London by diversion of 1 of the 2 electric tph that currently terminate at Didcot.

 

[DJ_K666]

Isn't the Cholsey and Wallingford one of those rare lines where they preserved most of the line, I know the station at Wallingford is in a different place and there were only 2 stations but it's more then 80% of the line, like the WSR.

 

[Clayton]

Isn't the Cholsey and Wallingford one of those rare lines where they preserved most of the line, I know the station at Wallingford is in a different place and there were only 2 stations but it's more then 80% of the line, like the WSR.

The station in Wallingford is a bit out of the way. As a local I can say that the Oxon priorities are Witney, Cowley, Grove, and redoubling the Cotswold line throughout, with expansion at Oxford station. The Marylebone line has been brilliant and should I hope be a model for future reopenings.

 

[DJ_K666]

The station in Wallingford is a bit out of the way. As a local I can say that the Oxon priorities are Witney, Cowley, Grove, and redoubling the Cotswold line throughout, with expansion at Oxford station. The Marylebone line has been brilliant and should I hope be a model for future reopenings.

That's good. Might have to take a ride on it one day. I've done Marylebone to Strratford and its a nice journey out through the rolling hills there.

 

[The Planner]

If Wallingford is to be re-opened, it should be served direct from Reading/London by diversion of 1 of the 2 electric tph that currently terminate at Didcot.

Which it never would be, Didcot is a much bigger market which the TOC would not start relinquishing. It would get a shuttle into the bay platform. It has no connection to the main line anyway currently.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

And how about Castleford - York. All the infrastructure is there, just run some trains !

This is a good point.

On this particular route, there used to be regular services between Manchester Victoria and York; for about 4 months during the winter of 1966/7, I used the 10.15 off Victoria as far as Wakefield Kirkgate, and from memory it was always reasonably well loaded. I also remember going on that particular service on a summer Saturday through to York shortly after the Calder Valley sets were introduced, and it was chocker.

Investment in additional T&RS, some subsidy, and changes to stopping patterns has the potential to increase connectivity massively. Using the Mansfield/Sutton-in-Ashfield area as an example, the combined population of these adjoining towns is about 150,000, but it is only served by the Robin Hood line between Nottingham and Worksop. If the Worksop terminators were to be extended the short distance to Retford and additional ECML services were to stop there, two objectives would be achieved; firstly, rail connections to the north for the Mansfield/Sutton area would be significantly improved, and secondly, direct rail connections would be established between Retford and Nottingham. Then, again by using existing infrastructure, a limited stop service could be established between Nottingham and Sheffield via Mansfield; however, it has to be recognised that some upgrading of the Robin Hood line may be necessary to enable such a service to be accommodated and for an acceptable journey time to be achieved.

Restoration of services over the former LD&ECR line east from Shirebrook to Edwinstowe and Ollerton has been suggested; again, this would be "easy" as the infrastructure is in place and could be achieved by extending the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators onwards. No doubt some signalling changes would be necessary and replacement stations built, but the overall cost should be quite low.

From a political point of view the above are no brainer; Edwinstowe and Ollerton are in Mark Spencer's constituency, Labour won Mansfield for the first time in 2017 and held it with an increased majority in December, and the Ashfield and Bassetlaw constituencies were won by the Conservatives from Labour at the last general election.

The former LD&ECR line is still in place through to High Marnham; just beyond it, Fledborough Viaduct over the Trent was rebuilt by BR in the 1960s, and the route onwards to Pyewipe Junction at Lincoln seems relatively free from incursions since closure. Although I can't recall seeing reinstatement of this route in any proposals, could it be done as part of a programme which restores passenger services not to just as far as Ollerton, but all the way through to Lincoln? Consequently, could this take freight traffic off the Nottingham - Lincoln line, thereby eliminating the need to construct a flyover over the ECML at Newark? Then, could a regional connector between Lincoln and Birmingham be introduced, going via Mansfield/Ashfield, through to the Erewash Valley then Ilkeston, Toton - if a HS2 hub station is built there - Derby, Burton-on-Trent, then perhaps to Birmingham via Lichfield?

Whilst an Ashington passenger train service restoration wouldn't give many - perhaps no - network benefits elsewhere, some others have the potential to improve train services in other places, although some further investment may be required. Taking Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton, if that was to be associated with the restoration to use of the Geldard Road Viaduct and perhaps some more platforms on the Wellington station side of Leeds City, could the XC NE/SW service reverse at Leeds and then go north to Darlington via Harrogate and Ripon? This, in turn, would free up capacity out through Cross Gates and on the ECML in the York area, and it's reversal at Leeds on the north side of the station and the removal of trains in the Huddersfield - Leeds corridor from the Holbeck area would further ease congestion at Leeds City's west end.

From what I've seen of past proposals for re-openings, they have failed to consider potential network benefits beyond the line being considered, and have often viewed the route being considered purely from the point of view of restoring what existed/how a line was used at the time of closure; the Leicester - Burton line, for example, has been viewed as a local connector, with services being extended through to Derby (and Willington station was rebuilt as part of the original Ivanhoe line proposals). But there is also a connection at the Burton end towards Birmingham, so how would journey times between Leicester and Birmingham compare if a direct service was to be run that way? What relief could such a service bring to the A42/M42 corridor? I don't think it was ever considered. Likewise the work undertaken for Derbyshire County Council and others regarding Matlock - Buxton/Chinley; but to be fair, at that time the possibility of splitting the Norwich - Liverpool service at Nottingham wasn't on the horizon, but by looking at it now would it make sense if the proposed Norwich - Nottingham - Derby service was to be extended through the Peak District to Manchester and the Liverpool - Nottingham service to be re-routed via Mansfield, as suggested above?

Whilst a reopening like March - Wisbech sounds nice and easy, apart from benefits to Wisbech what would it really achieve? This is the conundrum, and it comes back to the structure of our railways. Without deeper involvement from the DfT or the establishment of something like the Strategic Rail Authority to consider re-openings in a wider sense and which enables all network benefits to be taken into account (such as those suggested for Leeds in parallel with a Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton re-opening), there is a danger that money will be wasted on re-openings which provide good soundbites (as it was on the Sinfin branch in Derby).