Is First Class too expensive and should it be abolished?

[yorkie]

Remove first from all trains EXCEPT open access services

In 2015 87% of respondents disagreed with you (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lished-throughout-the-uk-rail-network.116126/ ) .

I personally agree with @Bletchleyite that, on occasions, 1st class can be overpriced and should be reduced, for example at weekends XC can be almost empty in 1st while overcrowded in Standard, and this is not only because 1st is too expensive but because there are nonsensical barriers as to who is actually entitled to upgrade!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally agree with @Bletchleyite that, on occasions, 1st class can be overpriced and should be reduced, for example at weekends XC can be almost empty in 1st while overcrowded in Standard, and this is not only because 1st is too expensive but because there are nonsensical barriers as to who is actually entitled to upgrade!

Indeed, I find the bar on Advance ticket holders upgrading and the requirement for split ticket holders to upgrade each ticket to be completely bizarre - why on earth would they be turning away money when people are sat there waving it at them?

 

[hexagon789]

Remove first from all trains EXCEPT open access services

Why except Open Access?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why except Open Access?

Because they are commercial and receive no subsidy so can do what they feel like, and should be allowed to make their own commercial decisions?

 

[hexagon789]

I would be inclined to agree - I would abolish it on all regional and commuter type services, retaining it only on IC/IR type stuff i.e. Avanti, LNER, GWR IC, EMR IC, GA IC, ScotRail I7C, TPE, XC and the very long distance Welsh stuff e.g. North Wales-South Wales and Manchester-South Wales (and maybe the Cambrian).

Yes, exactly those routes/services. The only other operator I would consider would be Chiltern purely on the Marylebone-Birmingham but with no catering anymore, I'm not sure there's any point.

Unless, and this is something that has been done, you pay a fixed upgrade fee for First Class per single journey, one charge if catering is available, another lower fee of it's not.

 

[hexagon789]

Because they are commercial and receive no subsidy so can do what they feel like, and should be allowed to make their own commercial decisions?

Well of course they should be allowed to make their own commercial decisions, it just wasn't what I was thinking of. No matter

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, exactly those routes/services. The only other operator I would consider would be Chiltern purely on the Marylebone-Birmingham but with no catering anymore, I'm not sure there's any point.

Chiltern's business model has long been not to have 1st but rather good quality Standard. The only reason it was brought back was that the Mk3 formations they acquired from WSMR had a First Class vehicle and they had to do something with it.

Thinking on I'd also concede the SWR Weymouths and Exeters, they are quite long-distance and use IC style stock.

(Curiously the refurbished 165s have what look like "First Class" sections i.e. 2+2, though I half recall the reason for this is that to change the middle section of the coach from 3+2 to 2+2 would have required moving underseat equipment which was too costly)

 

[hexagon789]

Chiltern's business model has long been not to have 1st but rather good quality Standard. The only reason it was brought back was that the Mk3 formations they acquired from WSMR had a First Class vehicle and they had to do something with it.

Thinking on I'd also concede the SWR Weymouths and Exeters, they are quite long-distance and use IC style stock.

(Curiously the refurbished 165s have what look like "First Class" sections i.e. 2+2, though I half recall the reason for this is that to change the middle section of the coach from 3+2 to 2+2 would have required moving underseat equipment which was too costly)

Couldn't they have re-seated them to Standard Class when the door mods were done? Much simpler job than removing toilets, fitting retention tanks or fitting power doors!

 

[bramling]

Indeed, I find the bar on Advance ticket holders upgrading and the requirement for split ticket holders to upgrade each ticket to be completely bizarre - why on earth would they be turning away money when people are sat there waving it at them?

Presumably because a small number of full-price tickets are considered more valuable than a batch of cheapo upgrades? If you start filling up first with the latter then there’s the risk of losing the former.

I’d assume that’s the basic premise of weekend first - someone clocked that there’s not so many of the full-price types travelling at weekends so less risk of alienating them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably because a small number of full-price tickets are considered more valuable than a batch of cheapo upgrades?

Possibly so, but then you might as well reduce the amount of 1st and have more Standard seats.

 

[randyrippley]

Because they are commercial and receive no subsidy so can do what they feel like, and should be allowed to make their own commercial decisions?

Exactly

 

[Kite159]

Chiltern's business model has long been not to have 1st but rather good quality Standard. The only reason it was brought back was that the Mk3 formations they acquired from WSMR had a First Class vehicle and they had to do something with it.

Thinking on I'd also concede the SWR Weymouths and Exeters, they are quite long-distance and use IC style stock.

(Curiously the refurbished 165s have what look like "First Class" sections i.e. 2+2, though I half recall the reason for this is that to change the middle section of the coach from 3+2 to 2+2 would have required moving underseat equipment which was too costly)

There has always been a small area of "3-1+2" seating with small tables in the centre coach of a 166. Plus proper first class seating at either end

(3-1+2 The seating is at the same spacing as 3+2 but the 3rd seat isn't there creating a wider aisle, similar to the 357/3s on C2C.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly

The open access operators and the likes of Ian Yeowart would be rubbing their hands with glee at this suggestion!

The demand for open access operators on prime routes would soar.

Imagine how many more trains GC and Hull Trains would want to run! I could also see them running 10 car trains comprising 5 coaches of 1st class at peak times.

This would ultimately cost taxpayers £millions in lost revenues as fares with a value of several hundred pounds apiece would no longer go towards franchised operators.

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly

This implies that the franchised long distance operators aren’t commercial operators?

 

[randyrippley]

This implies that the franchised long distance operators aren’t commercial operators?

Judging from the number of franchises that fail then maybe that's a valid comment. Many seem to be lacking in commercial skills

 

[Bletchleyite]

This implies that the franchised long distance operators aren’t commercial operators?

They indeed are not in that sense - i.e. they do not have commercial freedom and do not succeed or fail purely on their own business decisions.

 

[Purple Orange]

It would be interesting to know how much of total revenue first class fares contribute. I would suspect that the when putting in a tender bid, sensitivity analysis will have been performed on financial models to understand the optimum price v volumes required between first and standard to maximise revenue.

If it makes sense financially to cart fresh air around for most of the day in first, but the peak services make it worthwhile, we will continue to see first class provision.

 

[jon0844]

It would be interesting to know how much of total revenue first class fares contribute. I would suspect that the when putting in a tender bid, sensitivity analysis will have been performed on financial models to understand the optimum price v volumes required between first and standard to maximise revenue.

If it makes sense financially to cart fresh air around for most of the day in first, but the peak services make it worthwhile, we will continue to see first class provision.

First class is still apparently financially worthwhile on many commuter services, so I'd expect it to continue in those locations rather than a blanket change in policy to have first class only on long-distance/IC services.