Given the Shapps announcement, which lines would you propose for reopening?

[xotGD]

How about just introducing a proper service on lines where hardly anything runs?

Knottingley - Goole
Sheff - Ponte - York
Darlo - Hartlepool
etc.

 

[leytongabriel]

Hall Farm Curve to enable a Stratford - Walthamstow - Chingford service to run. Would serve the massive new housing developments at Lea Bridge and, with a new station, Ruckholt Rd. and poss be a candidate for tram-train type operation with extra stops between Wood St and Chingford.

 

[Aictos]

As @The Planner says, there is no chance that freight can contribute to this route.

Firstly, there’s not actually that much rail freight across the Pennines, nor a huge untapped market that could readily transfer to rail. And what there is (existing or potential) would not necessarily be routed that’s way anyway.

Secondly, there is the rather sticky issue of Leeds. Any freight that was routed that way would either have to go through Leeds station, or across the southern / western approaches at 25mph. See what happens at Manchester Picadilly for the reasons why this wouldn’t be a good idea.

Which is why I be happy and prefer any reopening to Skipton to be a simple extension of the Colne service.

To think of it as anything else is silly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hall Farm Curve to enable a Stratford - Walthamstow - Chingford service to run. Would serve the massive new housing developments at Lea Bridge and, with a new station, Ruckholt Rd. and poss be a candidate for tram-train type operation with extra stops between Wood St and Chingford.

Couldn’t run any more trains to Stratford without removing the existing services to Tottenham.

 

[Bald Rick]

First point. I don't think the Planner says that. He mentions freight ON ITS OWN never making a business case. Freight could contribute to a case.

Second point. An hour at the side of the M62 would show a huge amount of freight traffic. I'm not suggesting wholesale transfer to rail but I'm sure some could be identified.

An hour at the side of (almost) any trunk road would show a huge amount of freight traffic. Very little of it is able to transfer to rail (because start and/or finish point is not near a rail facility) and of that which can, a much smaller proportion has economics which make transfer to rail realistic.

Given that the structure of industry finances is such that the rail freight business only pays its marginal costs to the cost of rail infrastructure provision, freight simply couldn’t contribute to the case for a new line, at least in financial terms. Unless special arrangements were made, and I don’t see that happening.

 

[edwin_m]

First point. I don't think the Planner says that. He mentions freight ON ITS OWN never making a business case. Freight could contribute to a case.

Second point. An hour at the side of the M62 would show a huge amount of freight traffic. I'm not suggesting wholesale transfer to rail but I'm sure some could be identified.

An hour at the side of (almost) any trunk road would show a huge amount of freight traffic. Very little of it is able to transfer to rail (because star5 and or finish point is not near a rail facility) and of that which can, a much smaller proportion has economics which make transfer to rail realistic.

Given that the structure of industry finances is such that the rail freight business only pays its marginal costs to the cost of rail infrastructure provision, freight simply couldn’t contribute to the case for a new line, at least in financial terms. Unless special arrangements were made, and I don’t see that happening.

To add to that, there's very little bulk freight crossing the Pennines where large quantities are travelling between the same origin and destination. Basically just the biomass (formerly coal) and as pointed out somewhere further back that could be shipped into an east coast port instead. Furthermore it's quite likely that by the time any new route was opened, the biomass power stations (being re-purposed coal ones) would be life-expired and/or people would have decided that biomass wasn't really "green" enough to qualify as a large-scale power source.

There's more intermodal going through Liverpool these days but virtually all that goes across the Pennines is travelling too short a distance to be worth putting it on a train and transshipping to road at the eastern end - similarly to how hardly any boxes from Felixstowe and Southampton go by rail to the London area. Liverpool-Tyneside might be long enough but unlikely to generate more than a handful of trains, and Liverpool-Scotland can go WCML instead.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Couldn’t run any more trains to Stratford without removing the existing services to Tottenham.

There's also the issue of Highams Park level crossing.

 

[158756]

Which is why I be happy and prefer any reopening to Skipton to be a simple extension of the Colne service.

To think of it as anything else is silly.

£300m (or whatever) for a rural branchline between Skipton and Colne doesn't sound a great deal though (if it sounds any better for whatever else the line could realistically be). If decent journey times could be achieved, there would certainly be more demand from Pendle to Leeds than to Skipton - but Leeds-Skipton being congested and electrified is obviously a major barrier to any through service. There isn't really any need for another long distance transpennine route though.

 

[Aictos]

£300m (or whatever) for a rural branchline between Skipton and Colne doesn't sound a great deal though (if it sounds any better for whatever else the line could realistically be). If decent journey times could be achieved, there would certainly be more demand from Pendle to Leeds than to Skipton - but Leeds-Skipton being congested and electrified is obviously a major barrier to any through service. There isn't really any need for another long distance transpennine route though.

Dual the line between Rose Grove and Skipton then you can improve the frequency of the current Preston to Colne service by extending it though to Skipton as a half hourly all stations service allowing the Blackpool to York to be speeded up if possible,

At the moment the fact that the line is treated as a long siding deliberately keeps the service as unattractive as it is, do the infrastructure upgrade and increase the service and you’re fine.

 

[S&CLER]

Dual the line between Rose Grove and Skipton then you can improve the frequency of the current Preston to Colne service by extending it though to Skipton as a half hourly all stations service allowing the Blackpool to York to be speeded up if possible,

At the moment the fact that the line is treated as a long siding deliberately keeps the service as unattractive as it is, do the infrastructure upgrade and increase the service and you’re fine.

Dualling through Nelson would be problematic given the redevelopment of the station as part of the bus-rail interchange. Disabled lift access has blocked the former down (Colne-bound) face of the island platform.

 

[apk55]

Dualling through Nelson would be problematic given the redevelopment of the station as part of the bus-rail interchange. Disabled lift access has blocked the former down (Colne-bound) face of the island platform.

The whole section need not be redoubled at least at first Long dynamic loops either side could be fitted. Metrolink has shown what can be pushed through a short single track such as Navigation Road and Newton Heath.

 

[edwin_m]

The whole section need not be redoubled at least at first Long dynamic loops either side could be fitted. Metrolink has shown what can be pushed through a short single track such as Navigation Road and Newton Heath.

The figure would be much less for heavy rail than for Metrolink, and a dynamic loop would be much longer than one for light rail, if the train is to run on greens through signals that are at braking distance from the single-double junctions. However I agree an hourly or a half-hourly service could be run with dynamic loops, without restoring double track over the whole route.

 

[Philip]

Middlewich line surely has to reopen for passenger services before any old lines are restored? Obviously reopen Middlewich Station and then divert the Crewe-Manchester stopping train that way to run via Knutsford into Manchester.

The Alderley Edge shuttle could then run to Crewe and pick up the local stations.

 

[158756]

Dual the line between Rose Grove and Skipton then you can improve the frequency of the current Preston to Colne service by extending it though to Skipton as a half hourly all stations service allowing the Blackpool to York to be speeded up if possible,

At the moment the fact that the line is treated as a long siding deliberately keeps the service as unattractive as it is, do the infrastructure upgrade and increase the service and you’re fine.

Even if it were doubled the line will always struggle because it's so slow (serving all stops west of Rose Grove as well) and because it doesn't go anywhere with really high demand (ie a city) - Skipton won't change that. There isn't much to be gained speeding up Blackpool - York - it doesn't really stop anywhere in Lancashire you might want to cut - maybe Accrington is a bit small if it's supposed to be a proper long distance service, but you have to almost stop for the curve there anyway.

 

[Mogz]

I imagine that in the Thames Valley the following re-openings would serve to alleviate severe road congestion:

The Abingdon branch
The Witney branch
The Cowley service (already mooted by Chiltern a few years ago).

High Wycombe- Marlow- Maidenhead.

Banbury-Cheltenham and
Didcot-Newbury-Winchester would provide useful routes to take the pressure off Birmingham and Reading respectively too, I imagine.

 

[Mogz]

And although not a reopening per se, re-quadrupling of some of the Chester-Birkenhead line would enable some Merseyrail Chester-Liverpool trains to run semi-fast and take some pressure off the M53.

 

[Clayton]

I imagine that in the Thames Valley the following re-openings would serve to alleviate severe road congestion:

The Abingdon branch
The Witney branch
The Cowley service (already mooted by Chiltern a few years ago).

High Wycombe- Marlow- Maidenhead.

Banbury-Cheltenham and
Didcot-Newbury-Winchester would provide useful routes to take the pressure off Birmingham and Reading respectively too, I imagine.

Witney and Cowley are absolute musts due to the traffic situation. Not Abingdon though, it’s no distance and the bus is fine, plus is able to stop in convenient places.

 

[MarkWiles]

Dolgellau to Morfa Mawddach by Parry People Mover, connecting with the Cambrian line services. The PPM would be configured as a tramcar so as to share the Mawddach Trail foot and cycleway, so as not to upset the Goretex and lycra clad whiney anoraks who bitched about the Welsh Highland street running across Pont Britannia in Porthmadog. Wouldn't cost a lot to do, and would give Dolgellau, which is an important albeit small rural administrative centre, a rail connection appropriate for it's needs and status.

Unfortunately we won't be able to tap into Shappsy's largesse unless the Barnet rules give Cardiff Bay a bung in which case it'll be spent down south.

 

[Mark J]

Bourne End -> High Wycombe
Uckfield -> Lewes
Oxford -> Witney
Oxford -> Cowley
Kemble -> Cirencester
March -> Wisbech
Colne -> Skipton
Okehampton -> Bere Alston
Honeybourne -> Stratford-Upon-Avon

Also agree with proposals for reinstating Daventry, Buckingham and Skelmersdale.

I also think that 500 million is not enough. I've said on here a few times that the Government should be investing one billion a year, over ten years towards rail re-openings. That is if they are serious on climate change and improving the railways.

If many billions can be found for road improvements, or HS2, then surely ten billion, costed over ten years is do-able and would make a huge difference to communities across the country.

 

[Mark J]

Link from Honeybourne to Stratford on Avon back on the radar recently see the excellent prospectus laid before Parliament recently regarding the North Cotswold Line there is a thread somewhere. Honeybourne to Cheltenham a non runner I think, cuttings and embankments unstable, no access into Cheltenham now.

Aren't the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway's long term ambitions to run from Honeybourne all the way through to Cheltenham Station?

Although on a recent visit to Cheltenham, walking along the 'Railway path' to the centre, it will be hard to see how they will ever get back to Cheltenham Station. That is given the bowstring bridge near Waitrose, the railway path and its' obstacles along the way, such as playgrounds and the pedestrian subways under the roadway.

 

[Jack Hay]

To add to that, there's very little bulk freight crossing the Pennines where large quantities are travelling between the same origin and destination. Basically just the biomass (formerly coal) and as pointed out somewhere further back that could be shipped into an east coast port instead. Furthermore it's quite likely that by the time any new route was opened, the biomass power stations (being re-purposed coal ones) would be life-expired and/or people would have decided that biomass wasn't really "green" enough to qualify as a large-scale power source.

There's more intermodal going through Liverpool these days but virtually all that goes across the Pennines is travelling too short a distance to be worth putting it on a train and transshipping to road at the eastern end - similarly to how hardly any boxes from Felixstowe and Southampton go by rail to the London area. Liverpool-Tyneside might be long enough but unlikely to generate more than a handful of trains, and Liverpool-Scotland can go WCML instead.

I'm afraid this is all missing the point. Today, heavy freight from Port of Liverpool is unable to cross the Pennines by a sensible route. Look at the route of the Liverpool to Drax biomass train for an example. The biomass runs via an absurd and indirect route because no better route is available. Look at the freight from Trafford Park. There is no route except via the Castlefield corridor. There is a problem of inadequate paths for freight. It needs to be solved.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm afraid this is all missing the point. Today, heavy freight from Port of Liverpool is unable to cross the Pennines by a sensible route. Look at the route of the Liverpool to Drax biomass train for an example. The biomass runs via an absurd and indirect route because no better route is available. Look at the freight from Trafford Park. There is no route except via the Castlefield corridor. There is a problem of inadequate paths for freight. It needs to be solved.

Except they do run, and run well.

What is the scale of the benefit from perhaps a dozen freight services a day when £300-400m is spent on a new route? Who gets that benefit, and how does that benefit find its way back to whoever would pay for the line?

 

[Jack Hay]

Except they do run, and run well.

What is the scale of the benefit from perhaps a dozen freight services a day when £300-400m is spent on a new route? Who gets that benefit, and how does that benefit find its way back to whoever would pay for the line?

The benefit is that paths are freed up on congested infrastructure such as at Edgeley Junction. Also cost savings for the train operator who would be expected to contribute to the line. I'd disagree that they run well, by the way. Look at the amount of dislocation that's caused every time there's a failure. We should try to avoid running freight on intensively worked passenger lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

The benefit is that paths are freed up on congested infrastructure such as at Edgeley Junction. Also cost savings for the train operator who would be expected to contribute to the line. I'd disagree that they run well, by the way. Look at the amount of dislocation that's caused every time there's a failure. We should try to avoid running freight on intensively worked passenger lines.

Costs savings for the freight operator would be in the region of perhaps a couple of hundred quid per train. Perhaps half a million a year. In context, the annual infrastructure operating / maintenance bill for a Skipton to Colne Line would be 3-5 times that.

And what would you do with the paths at Edgeley Junction? And, conversely, which paths are you going to take out of the Leeds Western approaches to fit these freight trains in?

 

[Jack Hay]

Costs savings for the freight operator would be in the region of perhaps a couple of hundred quid per train. Perhaps half a million a year. In context, the annual operating / maintenance bill for a Skipton to Colne Line would be 3-4 times that.

And what would you do with the paths at Edgeley Junction?

Well, since you ask, I'd run some extra Northern services to Macc or to Chester that are currently unable to operate owing to lack of capacity at Stockport. Others would say that the paths must be freed up to allow HS2 classic compatibles to run before the HS2 line is complete to Manchester in addition to the WCML legacy trains serving the towns that HS2 does not. Any freed up paths at Stockport will be very valuable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, since you ask, I'd run some extra Northern services to Macc or to Chester that are currently unable to operate owing to lack of capacity at Stockport. Others would say that the paths must be freed up to allow HS2 classic compatibles to run before the HS2 line is complete to Manchester in addition to the WCML legacy trains serving the towns that HS2 does not. Any freed up paths at Stockport will be very valuable.

Using today as an example, the 6 paths from Liverpool to Drax are through Stockport at 0048, 0500, 1101, 1442, 2002 and 2305. And the return services don’t go back the same way. Seems an awful lot of cash to spend for, perhaps, 3 off peak services, in one direction.

What about the Leeds question?

 

[daodao]

I imagine that in the Thames Valley the following re-openings would serve to alleviate severe road congestion:

The Abingdon branch
The Witney branch
The Cowley service (already mooted by Chiltern a few years ago).

High Wycombe- Marlow- Maidenhead.

Banbury-Cheltenham and
Didcot-Newbury-Winchester would provide useful routes to take the pressure off Birmingham and Reading respectively too, I imagine.

Cholsey-Wallingford, with electrification: alternate stopping trains to Didcot could be diverted to Wallingford instead on Mon-Sat, providing an hourly service from Reading/London. On Sundays and bank holidays, the steam heritage service could continue to operate.

 

[Clayton]

Cholsey-Wallingford, with electrification: alternate stopping trains to Didcot could be diverted to Wallingford instead on Mon-Sat, providing an hourly service from Reading/London. On Sundays and bank holidays, the steam heritage service could continue to operate.

I think Wallingford folk are ok with a bus or drive to Didcot. Small branch lines aren’t normally worth restoring.

 

[158756]

Except they do run, and run well.

What is the scale of the benefit from perhaps a dozen freight services a day when £300-400m is spent on a new route? Who gets that benefit, and how does that benefit find its way back to whoever would pay for the line?

There's also the problem that other alternative routes do already exist - that they aren't used would seem to indicate that causing congestion in Stockport on an absurdly long route is actually the most cost effective way to go.

If we assume the paths on the WCML needed to go via Colne exist, otherwise the whole thing is a non starter, then they also exist to allow the biomass to go via Copy Pit. If we also assume the required paths through Leeds exist, then it must also be possible to go via Clitheroe - if the layout at Hellifield doesn't allow running round anymore changing it would cost a lot less than reopening Skipton-Colne.

 

[daodao]

I think Wallingford folk are ok with a bus or drive to Didcot. Small branch lines aren’t normally worth restoring.

They can be as a suitable outer destination for a through route from a major urban centre, but not when in the back of beyond. Other suggestions would be:

• Aberbeeg to Abertyleri, as the terminus for an hourly service from Newport, Gwent
• Ystrad Mynach to Blackwood (Coed Duon), as the terminus for an hourly service from Cardiff - the Maes-y-Cwmmer viaduct is still extant
  
• Nunthorpe to Guisborough, as the terminus for an hourly service from Middlesbrough
• Hunt's Cross to Gateacre, as an extension of Merseyrail
• Walsall to Aldridge, as the terminus for a half-hourly service from Birmingham
• Mansfield to Ollerton, as the terminus for an hourly service from Nottingham
• Harrogate to Ripon, as the terminus for an hourly service from Leeds
• Bere Alston to Tavistock, as the terminus for an hourly service from Plymouth

Altnabreac has previously put forward "rules" for a successful rail reopening:

1. Population of 10,000+
2. 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre
3. Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
4. Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required
5. Regeneration potential to justify public investment
6. Housing growth demand to create both demand and developer contributions
7. Any extension / diversion should have the effect of generating more passengers than it loses

Cholsey to Wallingford ticks the above boxes, apart from point 5 (as it is sited in the affluent SE of England).